The NSX is making a return...

[Tornado]

Oh we have a teacher that drove every MR car in the world that can tell us they are all understeery.

They are stable with notable understeer only for people that don't how to use their right foot.

Pick one position or the other.

Can you please tell me why the fastest race cars on a race track most of times are MR?

That has nothing to do with the "debate" about Keef's original comment.

 

[HKS racer]

Pick one position or the other.

That has nothing to do with the "debate" about Keef's original comment.

LOL.

Because it's the the most ideal layout for racing on a race track for a number of reasons. The road isn't the race track, the things that make MR ideal for the track dont necessarily make them ideal for the road. More weight at the back will make a MR car understeer under acceleration out of a corner. That is the laws of physics.

Empirical discussions like this can't give you a correct idea of what a car is going to do if you don't take into account the whole car and not only the engine placement. On a race track laws of physics can't be applied to a sigle component. You need to consider power output, differential, suspensions, etc to have a decent idea on how a car is going to behave.
There are MR cars like Lancia Stratos that are built and meant to be driven with throttle input used to steer the car.

Anyways since every model is different and this is the NSX thread I'm going to speak about the NSX. If someone care to have an MR vs other type of cars general discussion we need another thread.

About the NSX road car I didn't drive the real car but the rFactor mod has realistic physics and I can actually steer the car with throttle input. You can try yourself.

 

[Tornado]

I wonder if anyone else will notice that you went from acting like Keef had an arm growing out of his ass for saying what he did to agreeing with him. Not that self-reflection seems to be your forte, but it certainly would have been interesting to see how the discussion would have gone had you posted such an informed comment to begin with rather than leading off with "only for people that don't how to use their right foot" then being a hypocrite when others made similarly blanket statements to the opposite effect (though I'll take the "LOL" that originally was the entirety of your post as an apology for said hypocrisy); or going on a meaningless tangent about how MR cars are the fastest around the track.

 

[TheCracker]

LOL.
Empirical discussions like this can't give you a correct idea of what a car is going to do if you don't take into account the whole car and not only the engine placement. On a race track laws of physics can't be applied to a sigle component. You need to consider power output, differential, suspensions, etc to have a decent idea on how a car is going to behave.
There are MR cars like Lancia Stratos that are built and meant to be driven with throttle input used to steer the car.

Anyways since every model is different and this is the NSX thread I'm going to speak about the NSX. If someone care to have an MR vs other type of cars general discussion we need another thread.

About the NSX road car I didn't drive the real car but the rFactor mod has realistic physics and I can actually steer the car with throttle input. You can try yourself.

If it was possible to create two largely identical cars, with the same suspension, same power, same differential, etc. One FR and the other MR, the MR car will inherently understeer more than the FR car will. You can't ignore the laws of physics. You can dial that initial understeer out, but at the cost of negatively effecting some other aspect of how the car handles. A MR layout isn't a component, let alone a single one.

The Stratos wasn't designed to be driven on throttle inputs, it's just the result of having a short wheel base, a high centre of gravity and rear wheel drive. You can largely drive/steer any rear wheel drive car, with a reasonable power to grip ratio, on the throttle.

 

[HKS racer]

If it was possible to create two largely identical cars, with the same suspension, same power, same differential, etc. One FR and the other MR, the MR car will inherently understeer more than the FR car will. You can't ignore the laws of physics. You can dial that initial understeer out, but at the cost of negatively effecting some other aspect of how the car handles. A MR layout isn't a component, let alone a single one.

Well it's interesting but I have different feelings. On Sim racing when I drive MR cars with weight distribution 45% front and 55% rear I feel they are way less understeery than 55% front 45% rear. It happens with GT5 and rFactor. Usually my favourite cars has weight distribution of 47 - 53 and MR engine. I like how these cars start oveersteering on fast turns at Spa. Maybe my driving style is different and I feel better turn in with more weight on the back.

The Stratos wasn't designed to be driven on throttle inputs

Yes it was. And the Gran Turismo 5 version did quite a good job on recreating the handling behaviour. More precisely it can steer with GENTLE lift off the throttle ,opproaching the corner in controlled oversteer.
(Gentle is the key word with the Stratos though.)

I wonder if anyone else will notice that you went from acting like Keef had an arm growing out of his ass for saying what he did to agreeing with him. Not that self-reflection seems to be your forte, but it certainly would have been interesting to see how the discussion would have gone had you posted such an informed comment to begin with rather than leading off with "only for people that don't how to use their right foot" then being a hypocrite when others made similarly blanket statements to the opposite effect (though I'll take the "LOL" that originally was the entirety of your post as an apology for said hypocrisy); or going on a meaningless tangent about how MR cars are the fastest around the track.

You just like to internet fight don't you? Let's speak about cars dude. Actually TheCracker posts are more interesting than yours.

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

...It happens with GT5 and rFactor... And the Gran Turismo 5 version did quite a good job on recreating the handling behaviour...

I'm done here. As much as GT fanboy I am, I have enough brainpower to realize that even the best simulation ( which GT is not by far) falls short from the real world thing.

 

[HKS racer]

I'm done here. As much as GT fanboy I am, I have enough brainpower to realize that even the best simulation ( which GT is not by far) falls short from the real world thing.

We all know that sim racing is not 100% accurate but since I didn't drive a Stratos in real life and you probably didn't as well, we can only talk about what we know.
It's not like talking about simulations has less relevance than empirical theories.

 

[niky]

GT5 is hardly the gold benchmark when talking about car handling. The game can't even get lift-off oversteer right, and bases its handling model almost completely on weight transfer without regards to some of the more basic aspects of tire physics.

Sometimes, it feels absolutely perfect. Sometimes, it just feels wrong.

When talking real world handling, simulators do have far less relevance than actual behind the wheel experience.

Oh, and Stratos:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/car...ro_vs_lancia_stratos_driving_the_legends.html

if you can summon the courage to push you’ll discover that the front tyres relinquish grip first

Lots of testers have noted excessive understeer:

http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2010/09/01/hmn_feature2.html

Of course, you could put the hammer down and use power to break the rear tires free (as one writer suggests up in that article), but the more effective, proper rally technique would be to induce lift-off oversteer or neutralsteer, getting off the gas to transfer weight forward to give the front tires the bite needed to shoot into the corner. It's only past midcorner that you get back on the gas, trying to get the natural understeer and oversteer to cancel each other out.







Note... here is where power-over actually does help... in hairpins.


But everywhere else, and with each driver, it's lift or neutral throttle, turn-in, then power on the way out, correct if needed.

I note you've said... lift-off... and yes, sometimes they do... but most corners are approached neutral throttle or trailing throttle... and very rarely do you see any of the drivers try to provoke oversteer by doing a massive lift. they just keep the weight on the nose of the car and let the ultra-short wheelbase and toed-out rear tires do their thing.

-

Of course, lift-off doesn't really work in Gran Turismo correctly, so...

 

[HKS racer]

Note... here is where power-over actually does help... in hairpins.

Cool post.
The video I'm quoting is where the driver is pushing the car (other videos are too conservative) and what I was saying, right foot on the gas to cure eventual understeer is there. Some nice power-oversteer out of the hairpins which is one of the basic techniques of decent drivers on MR cars.

I agree GT5 version looks more tail-happy than real life. PD exagerated it.

 

[Wolfe]

Even in Enthusia, renowned for being plenty tail-happy, the Stratos will lose traction at the front end if you add throttle at speed. What I'll say about sims is that they can certainly be useful for discussion, but they're not all made equal and basically none of them can be trusted on everything.

The video I'm quoting is where the driver is pushing the car (other videos are too conservative) and what I was saying, right foot on the gas to cure eventual understeer is there. Some nice power-oversteer out of the hairpins which is one of the basic techniques of decent drivers on MR cars.

At low speed, almost any RWD car with the capacity to spin its wheels can rotate the tail out, depending on your driving method. The thing is that MR and RR cars specifically work against this, enhancing rear wheel traction on corner exit (and reducing traction at the front end). It doesn't mean power oversteer never happens, but the general rule for having the engine out back is that on-throttle tends toward understeer. Even FR cars experience the same thing, but the effect of weight transfer is diminished.

 

[McLaren]

GT5 is hardly the gold benchmark when talking about car handling. The game can't even get lift-off oversteer right, and bases its handling model almost completely on weight transfer without regards to some of the more basic aspects of tire physics.

Sometimes, it feels absolutely perfect. Sometimes, it just feels wrong.

When talking real world handling, simulators do have far less relevance than actual behind the wheel experience.

Oh, and Stratos:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/car...ro_vs_lancia_stratos_driving_the_legends.html


Lots of testers have noted excessive understeer:

http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2010/09/01/hmn_feature2.html

Lies niky.

These are clearly journalists trying to become nothing more than 10 minute tabloid heroes.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Let's speak about cars dude.

So then stop speaking about games.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Lies niky.

These are clearly journalists trying to become nothing more than 10 minute tabloid heroes.

Well Lancia is from Italy so close enough to Ferrari, I guess it works then.

 

[HKS racer]

So then stop speaking about games.

If I didn't drive a Stratos in real life like all the people here (prove me wrong) we can only speak about games simulating cars or youtube videos about cars. But looking the clima in this thread I think I'm done with this discussion.

I also suggest @LMSCorvetteGT2 @McLaren and all the people that don't like me to add me in your ignore list. It's a cool feature, it helps you move on with your life instead of going back to old discussions over and over again.

 

[TheCracker]

If I didn't drive a Stratos in real life like all the people here (prove me wrong) we can only speak about games simulating cars or youtube videos about cars. But looking the clima in this thread I think I'm done with this discussion.

Or we can take our info from the many period and contemporary professional road tests on the car and come to a conclusion from that. Or we can just trust real world physics and accept that the MR layout is inherently prone to understeer.

 

[niky]

Cool post.
The video I'm quoting is where the driver is pushing the car (other videos are too conservative) and what I was saying, right foot on the gas to cure eventual understeer is there. Some nice power-oversteer out of the hairpins which is one of the basic techniques of decent drivers on MR cars.

I agree GT5 version looks more tail-happy than real life. PD exagerated it.

Nope.

Note, none of these drivers, not even Walter Rohrl, who's no stranger to insanely tail-happy cars, ever rolls into the gas before the apex. Rohrl does it only in the hairpins, because it's either that or the handbrake... might as well use the one that pushes you out of the corner straight away.

They're not being too conservative. There really is not enough front end grip there to turn in much quicker than they already are unless they're coasting in.

This is obviously different from how they'd drive in the dirt... where they'll feint for turn in much earlier.

But it'll be a feint and a lift rather than power-on... the solution when you have no grip in front is not to lose grip at the rear... then you're simply going off the road sideways*... but to transfer it back to the front for the turn in, and then transfer it back to the rear to straighten out... which, given the Stratos' weird rear end, only works nine times out of then... (as seen in the videos)

*Reminds me of one of those 1980's arguments on why FWD sucks... because you can't power out of understeer! Yeah... you can point the car the other way with the throttle once it understeers, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still several feet wide of the apex and losing speed the whole time!

 

[Tornado]

If I didn't drive a Stratos in real life like all the people here (prove me wrong)

Prove what wrong? It's pretty self-evident that you never did; and I'd certainly hope a Stratos owner would never let you drive such a rare car if your idea to make MR cars handle the way you want is to just apply more throttle.

we can only speak about games simulating cars or youtube videos about cars.

TheCracker answered this pretty well above (though I'm sure there will be some sort of conspiracy involved with those period tests too). I'd also say that it isn't remotely difficult to find reviews of the NSX that back up entirely what Keef said about the Italian cars contemporary with the original NSX launch. It's also worth pointing out that a video of a third party mod for a PC game, and and a description of a car's driving characteristics in a game so bad at modeling the effects of staggered tires (and to a lesser extent weight transfer in general) that rear engined cars also drove in the way you are insisting is normal for MR cars, doesn't prove much of anything for your point.



The point being about how well the NSX is good at starting controlled oversteer in rebuttal to someone... who said the NSX can have controlled oversteer notably better than other cars of the same drivetrain layout.

I also suggest @LMSCorvetteGT2 @McLaren and all the people that don't like me to add me in your ignore list.

Or what?

It's a cool feature, it helps you move on with your life instead of going back to old discussions over and over again.

Coming from a guy who bumped a three month old thread to quote someone just to tell them to "clean their mouth out" diminishes the impact of this statement somewhat.


But yeah, everyone should totally forget about that conversation from all of three days ago when attempting to debate with you today.

 

[HKS racer]

@niky "Rohrl does it only in the hairpins" which is what I like to do in those lame sim racing games everyone seems to snob here. But at least you have an interesting post to read and even if you have a different opinion you express yours without personal attacks.

@Tornado Welcome to my ignore list. Good bye.

 

[RACECAR]

So...about that NSX...

 

[Tornado]

"Rohrl does it only in the hairpins" which is what I like to do in those lame sim racing games everyone seems to snob here.

Uninvolving, not immersive, dry, technical, tedious, not fun racing,

Funny is I have the same feeling when playing GT.
To each his own.
End of story.

Well, you like to do it when it's convenient for whatever argument you're currently making, at least. Though the transparent attempt to dodge the issue entirely is noted.

even if you have a different opinion you express yours without personal attacks.

About the only personal attack in any discussion involving you in the past week was the literal one you threatened on another member if they were in Italy. Pointing out that you constantly change the subject and be hypocritical is not a personal attack.

@Tornado Welcome to my ignore list. Good bye.

Even better. Now you're just saving me the time of having to deal with you constantly changing the subject, hypocritically questioning my reasoning for posting or threatening me with bodily harm when I respond to how much nonsense you're spewing. Everyone should be so lucky.

 

[McLaren]

I also suggest @LMSCorvetteGT2 @McLaren and all the people that don't like me to add me in your ignore list. It's a cool feature, it helps you move on with your life instead of going back to old discussions over and over again.

Lmao at this guy.

First off, your meltdown was just days ago. Secondly, there is no over and over since no one even knew who you were til you decided to start reviving every thread last week.


So, let's not flatter ourselves.

 

[alonsof1fan91]

If it was possible to create two largely identical cars, with the same suspension, same power, same differential, etc. One FR and the other MR, the MR car will inherently understeer more than the FR car will. You can't ignore the laws of physics. You can dial that initial understeer out, but at the cost of negatively effecting some other aspect of how the car handles. A MR layout isn't a component, let alone a single one.

Well, having large, grippier tyres at the rears leads to understeer, thanks to higher cornering stiffness at the rear.
This hurts cars like the Enzo alot, which has very wide rear tyres.
Yet if we talk about early F1 or prototye sports cars were rules were not as strict as today, MRs killed FRs, mainly due to its handling and weight advantages.

Mid-engine shmid-engine... real men drive rear-engined cars.


And so:

The Auto Union Typ C and Bernd Rosemeyer disaggree with you and think your Toy cars are very cute.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

If I didn't drive a Stratos in real life like all the people here (prove me wrong) we can only speak about games simulating cars or youtube videos about cars. But looking the clima in this thread I think I'm done with this discussion.

I also suggest @LMSCorvetteGT2 @McLaren and all the people that don't like me to add me in your ignore list. It's a cool feature, it helps you move on with your life instead of going back to old discussions over and over again.

Too bad it isn't that old since it was only a couple days ago your biased, asinine, unsubstantiated party line Ferrari rhetoric nearly got a thread closed that had gone unnoticed upon for some months. People only know you to such an extent which starts at the Auto News sub forum and ends some where over in the Motorsports one. Between the two people only know you for your shenanigans about how Ferrari is the best car "built" production wise, or how Vettel and RBR are cheating and the FIA is just letting them get away with it. Or the recent favorite of mine is that the ACO is cheating Ferrari with BoP even though others run the same power and fuel allowance they do and beat them...

Actually my true favorite was how you got away (so it seems) by implying to a member @Zenith that they should go to your location or residence tell you what they were to your face and see if how tough they are. As if you'd cause them bodily harm over providing a better argument that Ferrari is crap, more so than the greatness as you tried to make it seem.

As for the ignore part, I'm not going to put you on ignore because you want me not to challenge your ignorance. Don't come on with lackluster arguments that can't be defended and you wont have people asking you to elaborate.

Now if you'd like to get back to the NSX (I sure would since it seems to be light years better than ferrari have in the works), that'd be great.

 

[niky]

The Auto Union Typ C and Bernd Rosemeyer disaggree with you and think your Toy cars are very cute.

I thought we were talking about cars and not engines with wheels slapped on them...

That's less mid-engined and more... all engine...

@niky "Rohrl does it only in the hairpins" which is what I like to do in those lame sim racing games everyone seems to snob here.

Hard for anyone to snub the racing sims... since this is a site dedicated to one.

What everyone is saying simply is that a sim can sometimes get things wrong. And what may be fun in a sim will sometimes not be applicable in real life.

In summary: In a tarmac rally, power-oversteer is not the weapon of choice. All those drivers tend to avoid it because it loses them time. Not because they're timid. If they were timid, they wouldn't be driving around forty year old rally cars in timed events.

 

[Zenith]

This is why GTP rocks. On grassroots motorsports you might get people with dumb ideas, but at least they've got an inkling of knowledge and experience. How boring!

Personally, I can't call a day complete until I've seen a teenager try to convince an experienced automotive journalist that no, really MR cars with a rear weight bias do oversteer on power-on because that's the proper racing style. Don't you even play console racing sims?

 

[HKS racer]

I thought we were talking about cars and not engines with wheels slapped on them...

That's less mid-engined and more... all engine...



Hard for anyone to snub the racing sims... since this is a site dedicated to one.

What everyone is saying simply is that a sim can sometimes get things wrong. And what may be fun in a sim will sometimes not be applicable in real life.

In summary: In a tarmac rally, power-oversteer is not the weapon of choice. All those drivers tend to avoid it because it loses them time. Not because they're timid. If they were timid, they wouldn't be driving around forty year old rally cars in timed events.

Ok you have a point there but these 40 years old cars are valuable museum cars and it's a bit risky trashing them around a track.
And there's the driving style. Some people prefer to setup their car for controlled oversteer and steering with throttle, others prefer slight understeer. You can be fast with booth. It happens on 4 wheels and 2 wheels as well, with Marc Marquez clearly showing the advantages of his driving technique.
But this is still called "the NSX making a return" thread and talking about Marquez is way too off-topic.

 

[Azure Flare]

Look everyone!

^ That thing that this thread was about at one point, isn't it awesome? ^

 

[TheCracker]

It's alright. But it's no Ferrari.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Look everyone!

^ That thing that this thread was about at one point, isn't it awesome? ^

Ah, yes, it's very, erm... yes. Ah.

It looks like the love-child of a Prius and a GT-R that hasn't got round to telling its parents it wants to be an Aston Martin.

 

[Azuremen]

The video I'm quoting is where the driver is pushing the car (other videos are too conservative) and what I was saying, right foot on the gas to cure eventual understeer is there. Some nice power-oversteer out of the hairpins which is one of the basic techniques of decent drivers on MR cars.

On any modernly tired MR car, you can't really power oversteer to solve understeer issues. In fact, applying throttle is generally how you reduce oversteer while mid-corner, with any oversteer typically being the result of lift-off.

Honestly, driving a setup FF and an MR car have more in common than an FR vs an MR, minus very low speed power oversteer induction, and even then that is a gamble in the MR car. Well, pushing an MR car in general is a bit of a gamble, and pushing one on a real world road is a touch nerve-wracking. The orginal NSX was relatively stable as a result of the wheelbase, not so much being an MR car.

And I don't recall you answering the question of whether you've actually driven an MR car. So, have you?