The terrorists want to kill me.

[87chevy]

When certain people have opinions so disgusting and predjudice I have found they are usually so morally distorted that nothing i say will do anything. I would like them all to know that they are part of the problem not the solution.

so, please explain to me why, morally speaking, i'm no better than Osama Bin Laden or Sadam Hussien. Obviously you think that, so please just tell me why, if you are right, then i will change my ways forever. My ears are open.

If i lived and preached contradiction i would be half-retarded. If i worshipped a piece of cloth used to promote war and consumption i would be a flag waver. If i gave up moral optimism for convenient, self serving realism i would be a waste of oxygen. Im not perfect but im doing the best I can and thats what feels right to me.

ah, yet you do preach contradiction. You see nothing wrong with Osama, and insurgents in Iraq blowing up hundreds of innocent people at at time, yet you preach peace..... something not quite right there........ can you explain this too?

Call me a utopian, pacifist, terrorist, anti-american, nutcase or whatever else you want. Anything but the same as you is a compliment.

this statement right here proves you are the closeminded one, well not just this statement, but it's a good example. You, by continually making statements like this, prove that you are actually the predjudice, close minded bastard. oh, and how old are you again? like 14? have you ever been to Iraq? have you ever done anything but play video games, surf the net and hungrily ingest Anti-American propoganda? please let me know if i'm wrong.

 

[wellyrn]

I am not on any side and I don't think you are right about anything else. Is this still "if you are not with us you are with the terrorist" attitude or would you like to share some other explanation?

I am definitely not blind, brainwashed or closed minded.

Is "Stereotyping" really bad? I think only when it comes from predjudice fools which i am not. I say things all the time that, coming from a Klansmen, i would hate to hear but more than 1/2 my friends are asian or middle eastern. Dave Chappelle uses stereotypes for humor but he clearly isn't a racist. Actions speak louder than words.

Self-righteous? I am not saying anything that hasn't been said by people far wiser and more intelligent than I am. I think THEY are righteous and I try to follow thier example.

 

[Carl.]

...first, I got a sermon over the phone from by my mother when I told her about us going to the big apple tomorrow morning (...dangerous place... terrorists attacks... Bronx... yada yada yada... - I could be bungee jumping out of a jet airplane and she would feel safer). Then I read this thread?

I seriously think that there will be other terrorists attack in the future, and on a greater scale than 9/11. I never wished such a thing though. This chess game is far from over IMO, and you can kill as many "terrorists"* you like in Iraq, I'm really not convinced that in the end that will help to prevent further attacks. I'm currenlty reading "Sleeping with the devil", from Robert Baer (ex-CIA), which I recommend to anyone who wish to learn a bit more about the history, sources and propagation of integrism throughout the Muslim world. (or you can just keep calling them insane terrorists wackos that have to be exterminated if that makes you fell any better. Let's waste the evil ****ers...)

The only way I see to solve this issue is to understand why they turn into religious fanatics and stop the hemorragy. And the roots of the issue don't seem to lie in Iraq.

Anyway, sorry to hear that, M5. Going there for the first time - yeah, crazy me...



* as opposed to brave freedom fighters when, for example, they pushed back the soviets in Afghanistan.

 

[87chevy]

is it just me or did wellyrn once again not answer a damn thing i asked? oh, wait, he said he wasn't prejudice or close minded, what about the rest of the stuff??? can't you ever directly answer me?


as to jpmontoya:

i have never associated the terrorists in Iraq to 9/11, but they are terrorists all the same. no, i don't believe killing those bastards in Iraq will really have a dramatic effect on threats here at home, but those buggers still need to be stopped from blowing up Iraqis, and Coalition troops who are trying to bring peace to a nation. Okay, so once i uderstand why they are crazy mo-fos, what do i do then??? huh? they are still gonna kill people wether i know why they are doing it or not! So what's your real answer?

 

[ledhed]

JPmontoya..I am glad you brought that up. Its very important for all sides to remember what we are up against and why. Al Queda and most other muslim extremist , drawing on our support of Isreal our percieved bias against Arabs our Support of the Saudi Royal family and the stationing of troops there. Find most of the Arab world fertile ground for recruits. Along side of this add in religion and cultural differences. Add to that the feeling of being overwhelmed by western ideas and culture. Mix in a very poor standard of living and no democracy. Thats why I think the war in Iraq is a step in the right direction. In the short term we are just showing our true colors and beating up on another Muslim country. But in the long term the establishment of a democratic Iraq and the departure of US troops will be seen as what it is a beacon of hope for the rest of the arab world. Its so important and so dangerouse to the Al queda types and others that they will do and are trying to do everything in thier power to prevent it. The fastest way to get the US out would be to allow the government to establish security and hold elections as soon as possible. They can never do it by force but they are willing to sacrifice as many IRAQI lives as it will take to destabilize the country and prevent free elections . Lets not miss this point . A democracy in Iraq is not what the terrorist want . They will never willingly allow it because it defeats thier purpose and is not in thier agenda. Alot has to happen to lessen the threat of terrorist , killing every one that you can is a start but changing things to cut down on the supply of new martyrs is a must. Sooner or later Israel and the Palestinians must be held to account .
And US troops can find other bases since the main threat to the Saudis was Iraq and the other threat in the region IRAN can be contained by bases in other countries around it. after all if you where the leader of Iran would you do something stupid , after what happened to the last TWO idiots in the region ?

 

[Carl.]

i have never associated the terrorists in Iraq to 9/11, but they are terrorists all the same. no, i don't believe killing those bastards in Iraq will really have a dramatic effect on threats here at home, but those buggers still need to be stopped from blowing up Iraqis, and Coalition troops who are trying to bring peace to a nation. Okay, so once i uderstand why they are crazy mo-fos, what do i do then??? huh? they are still gonna kill people wether i know why they are doing it or not! So what's your real answer?

Do you think they are born as crazy mo-fos? I don't. Us playing the great police of the world in Iraq will probaly serve as a catalyst for creating the next generation of crazy mo-fos, as our policies helped to do in the past.

And for the buggers in Iraq, we should ask Israel for lessons of how to effectively deal with them using force with state-of-the-art equipment..., they manage to solve this effectively, haven't they?

 

[87chevy]

And for the buggers in Iraq, we should ask Israel for lessons of how to effectively deal with them using force with state-of-the-art equipment..., they manage to solve this effectively, haven't they?

absolutey NOT you idiot! Israel is tryin to build a WALL to stop the threats! oh yeah, that's real high tech where in the world do you get the notion that Israel has solved their terrorist problem???????

 

[ledhed]

I think that comment was heavily laced with sarcasm. Isreal cant stop terrorist and the terrorist cant stop Isreal. The Palestinians hurt thier own cause by blowing up buses full of civilians ..old ladys, women, children etc. If they are trying to influence the average American who could put pressure on the government to change things ..they are failing miserably. The way Isreal deals with the palestinians sucks but they get sympathy because of the bombers so the cycle continues.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

chevy calm down just cause he gave an opinoin and it isn't logical doesn't mean he's an idoit.

 

[87chevy]

ok, ledhed, i didn't see the sarcasm in that, obviously. so i get his point now, however, terrorists still need to be killed.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

Sure terrorists need to be killed, but that isn't supposed to be in the hands of the us to decide. Thats the UNs decision. well it was supose to be.

 

[87chevy]

Sure terrorists need to be killed, but that isn't supposed to be in the hands of the us to decide. Thats the UNs decision. well it was supose to be.

do what???? so the us has no right to hunt down and slaughter the bastards who knocked down our buildings??? please explain.....

 

[Carl.]

absolutey NOT you idiot! Israel is tryin to build a WALL to stop the threats! oh yeah, that's real high tech where in the world do you get the notion that Israel has solved their terrorist problem???????

...you called me an idiot, yet you're the one who failed to grasp some pretty obivious sarcasm. I don't think they're anywhere close to solve the issue, and yes, they have state-of-the-art military, the unconditional support of the US, along with troops that are very well trained. And those walls are a shame.

edit: okay, missed the previous posts while typîng this one. (just had dinner)

Ledhed, you just mentioned the only hope I see in this conflict, that in the end a true democratic Iraq will serve as an example in the region to put an end to all of this, I had a very similar discussion with M-Spec in the thread "Photos of Iraq". From where we currently are, that's the best we can hope. But the pill is kinda hard to swallow for them (and the rest of the world watching) seeing how tied is the US is to other friendly nations such as Saoudi Arabia, wich are almost as far as Saddam's Iraq was from freedom and democraty.

Islam is currently the fastest growing religion in the world. Will its majority see the new Iraq as a path to follow, or as traitors of Islam? I think some actions should be taken (or have been taken, prior to the invasion), to ensure the first option. That does not mean that I'm against any strongarm tacticts, I don't see any other ways, for example, to deal with people at the core of integrism, who are teaching others that all the infidels must be killed.

But I see risks as great as what could have happened in the cold war, and I don't feel those risks have been taken seriously enough so far.

I'll be gone for the next days, I have to pack my things now, we're leaving during the night.

 

[wellyrn]

I don't have time to keep up with the insanity. We have a Libertarian for Bush quoting a black civil rights activist. I couldn't tell if you were calling him a ***** or just missing his point.

You see nothing wrong with Osama

Woobblllloooobllloooo weeee yyeeaaaa woopwooopwooop
it's CRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

how's that for eloqence Arwin?

What i DID say was that i don't like YOU any more than THEM. I think Bush is as bad as Osama, a soldier as much as a terrorist, and 87chevy as mush as a Muslim who supports violence but does not commit it himself. Comprende?

I think I need to become more fluent in psycho to communicate with them.

 

[Duke]

No, actually, you just need to be able to think for yourself and coherently defend your thoughts, which you are not able to do. You simply dodge every issue, throw everything anyone says about you or your thoughts back in their face reversed, andn then claim that you're right and we're wrong, which by circular logic supports your argument that you're right and we're wrong.

Shut up for a while and observe carefully how jpmontoya does it. I don't agree with a lot of what he says, but I have great respect for the thought process he puts into deciding it and the care he uses in explaining/defending it. You might actually learn something from him, since you're completely allergic to listening to anyone who disagrees with you, no matter how rational and intelligent they are.

 

[ledhed]

Wellryns brainwashing was done very well . his comerades would be proud ( except for the ;

Woobblllloooobllloooo weeee yyeeaaaa woopwooopwooop

part, that may have been a temporary overload of the indoctrination circuts and a fuse blew)...funny though

 

[87chevy]

Woobblllloooobllloooo weeee yyeeaaaa woopwooopwooop
it's CRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAZZEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!

there is just know way to refute these cold hard facts.........

What i DID say was that i don't like YOU any more than THEM. I think Bush is as bad as Osama, a soldier as much as a terrorist, and 87chevy as mush as a Muslim who supports violence but does not commit it himself. Comprende?

And once again, I specifically asked you to list why i was no better than a terrorist, and you fail to do it. Also, i'm not sure if you remember this, but i went to War, willingly, and was just itching at the chance to shoot the first SOB that gave me the oppurtunity. However, I didn't get the chance. I did almost get blown up though. So i dont see where you get that whole "but does not commit it himself" part, unless i just misunderstood that. Please i ask you, list specific reasons why I am as evil as a Terrorist!

 

[Ghost C]

I don't have time to keep up with the insanity. We have a Libertarian for Bush quoting a black civil rights activist. I couldn't tell if you were calling him a ***** or just missing his point.

No idiot, you quoted a black civil rights activist. I pointed out that you cannot, in fact, spread the propaganda of peace by declaring eternal hostility on something.

How you managed to turn a blind eye to every point made by anyone who you consider even remotely disagreeing with you is beyond me, but I guess you would have to be about that stupid to agree with people who think it's right to blow up thousands of innocent civilians, or even better - Use biological warfare on their own civilians.

Libertarian? Hardly. For Bush? You bet your ass.

I hope you get a bleeding sore in your anus that never goes away.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

do what???? so the us has no right to hunt down and slaughter the bastards who knocked down our buildings??? please explain.....

Its the law two countries can not engage in a war without the approval of the UN. But i guess with how powerful the us is no one really cared.

 

[Solid Fro]

Countries have a right to defend themselves. The UN is not are adolescent babysitter.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

The us is part of the UN, the un represents the world and it tries to prevent wars.

 

[milefile]

I am not on any side

You better pick one, because somebody is going to win. Or pick your nose for all I care. You've gotten a lot of attention you don't deserve already.

 

[Ghost C]

Let's ban him.

 

[halfracedrift]

Yes, countries DO have a right to defend theirselves.

But the problem with the US is that they as a country agreed to follow what the UN votes. When the UN does them good, they praise them. When the UN is against the US' actions, they simply put the UN aside as if it were nothing.

No, the UN is not an adolescent babysitter. There was a reason why it was created in the first place.

The entire goal of the UN is to support global peace. The UN was created so that countries don't attack other countries for no apparent reason. There are reasons that the UN declined attacking Iraq, because they did not find enough justifiable evidence to prove that they were a threat to global safety.

Yes, Usama (Not OSAMA, USAMA) did send those planes and indeed blew up the WTC. Does this justify the fact that the US sent troops to attack Iraq? And this rubbish, about Iraq having WoMDs. The United States already declared that they clearly had a 'misunderstanding' in the foreign intelligence. Perhaps, these actions by George Bush Jr. are to finish off what his father had not been able to do? The actions of one person do not, and SHOULD not dictate the fate of one country. No matter what country it is.

And if you're giving me a queer look, I'm on no one's side, just stating facts.

edit: Err.. ok. Most of my comments have been summed up by the previous posts, so you can ignore this if you want.

 

[Solid Fro]

What I was saying was that the US doesn't need anyone's permission, UN or otherwise, to defend itself. True, we should follow the rules of the UN, but it's very hard to do that if the UN has countries that have their own agenda to protect.

Yes, Usama (Not OSAMA, USAMA) did send those planes and indeed blew up the WTC. Does this justify the fact that the US sent troops to attack Iraq?

You're right, it doesn't. But, 9/11 had nothing to do with Operation Iraqi Freedom. Please, don't confuse the two.

 

[Solid Fro]

Oh, and another thing. Usama is the correct spelling. Fox News is the only one who spells it correctly. That goes to show you how willing the other networks are will the report the truth.

 

[ledhed]

Someone tell me what war the UN EVER prevented. I feel like I'm in the school of bizzarro history. some of this crap is almost stupid enough to be funny. Also I saw someone come up with a real doozy , about it being the UN 's job to say when terrorist should be attacked.
You need to look up the word sovereignty; power to govern without external control/ the supreme political power in a state. Tell me when the UN gained sovereignty over the US or any other friggin country ? Did we vote away our rights to self determination when I was not looking ? The UN is only as good as the NATIONS that belong to it and its ability to ENFORCE its descisions. 10 friggin years to get a tin pot , moron dictator to live up to the UN resolutions and the UN failed miserably. So the UN got the help it needed and the resolutions got enforced and SADDAM IS GONE.

 

[the_undrtaker89]

Yes, countries DO have a right to defend theirselves.

But the problem with the US is that they as a country agreed to follow what the UN votes. When the UN does them good, they praise them. When the UN is against the US' actions, they simply put the UN aside as if it were nothing.

No, the UN is not an adolescent babysitter. There was a reason why it was created in the first place.

The entire goal of the UN is to support global peace. The UN was created so that countries don't attack other countries for no apparent reason. There are reasons that the UN declined attacking Iraq, because they did not find enough justifiable evidence to prove that they were a threat to global safety.

Yes, Usama (Not OSAMA, USAMA) did send those planes and indeed blew up the WTC. Does this justify the fact that the US sent troops to attack Iraq? And this rubbish, about Iraq having WoMDs. The United States already declared that they clearly had a 'misunderstanding' in the foreign intelligence. Perhaps, these actions by George Bush Jr. are to finish off what his father had not been able to do? The actions of one person do not, and SHOULD not dictate the fate of one country. No matter what country it is.

And if you're giving me a queer look, I'm on no one's side, just stating facts.

edit: Err.. ok. Most of my comments have been summed up by the previous posts, so you can ignore this if you want.

thats what i meant...

 

[87chevy]

Someone tell me what war the UN EVER prevented.

exactly, please someone state an instant where the UN has actually completely prevented an impending conflict.....

Also I saw someone come up with a real doozy , about it being the UN 's job to say when terrorist should be attacked.

I was also laughing when i read that.

You need to look up the word sovereignty; power to govern without external control/ the supreme political power in a state. Tell me when the UN gained sovereignty over the US or any other friggin country ? Did we vote away our rights to self determination when I was not looking ? The UN is only as good as the NATIONS that belong to it and its ability to ENFORCE its descisions.

also let it be pointed out that not every country belongs to the UN. Therefore the UN does not represent the World in whole, and, the UN is not a World Government. As far as i know, NO nation has surrendered is sovereignty to the UN. The UN is only as powerful as we (voting memembers) allow it to be. I have a little knowledge of how the UN works as i was active in My highschools Model UN group. (yeah yeah, i'm a geek) Do you realize that all UN resolutions are based on words like "suggests, reccomends, encourages"? UN resolutions can only urge nations to do things, it has no real power at all.

 

[Danoff]

This one is pretty simple.

Many people in Europe like the idea of controlling the US through the UN. They like the concept that even though the US has carefully built itself up as a superpower and their country has not, they weild the might of the US throug the UN. That way, if they say the US should jump, the US jumps. If they say the US should stay put, the US does what it's told.

This is a control that many people in Europe thought they had over us - they were wrong. All bets are off when we get pissed (sometimes unfortunately for us in the case of civil liberties). Countries are sovereign and make their own damn desicisions about what treaties they signed that they want enforced, what resolutions they won't back down from, and what they want to do about their own security.

The sooner Europe understands that it doesn't own the US through the UN the better.