The Threat From China - Real or Not?

[hampus_dh]

Sorry! I was in a rush for a pub quiz. But yes, sorry for skewing the debate.

No problem it happens.

My interpretation from an engineering back ground is an A-10 is design to go where it will inevitably take a hit.

Yea it´s designed to be able to take punishment no doubt about that.

But again it's all relative. Delicate to an A-10, yes, delicate to an Eurofighter, no.

Ok let´s leave it at that then

Again, how has it been cancelled? They're fully supporting the relatively large number they've already produced and it'll still complete a full life cycle.

Yea but the devlopment and production of the F-22 has been cancelled. Thus no more money is being spent on the aircraft.
Except for maintenance and other stuff. All the money goes into the dog they call F-35 JSF.

The PAK FA and J-20 aren't even complete, they haven't even been signed off. But to say they are superior because they are later to the game is blissfully ignorant of the last 50 years of US v USSR/Russian aircraft development where the US has typically led and produced better aircraft.

Yea that´s my point, thus they are still in development. When i said superior i ment air-to-air combat due to the ability to out turn the F-22 which was one of the goals for the T-50 when designing the aircraft. J-20 is very mysterious and little is known about it.

But then again the same can be said for you, that the aircraft, despite being many years younger and still being developed is atleast 5 years older.

 

[Exorcet]

Yea but the devlopment and production of the F-22 has been cancelled. Thus no more money is being spent on the aircraft.
Except for maintenance and other stuff. All the money goes into the dog they call F-35 JSF.

Even Wikipedia can tell you about the 3.2 upgrade for the F-22 along with some of the future planned upgrades. The F-22 is not, never was, and never will be canceled.

When i said superior i ment air-to-air combat due to the ability to out turn the F-22

Unproven. You don't know if the PAK can out turn the F-22. Russia doesn't know either because they don't know how well the F-22 can turn. The US doesn't just give out that info.

It's also probably worth noting that a plane's turn performance needs to be described through a matrix of infinitely many points. In other words, a plane doesn't have just one specified turn performance, it varies with speed, altitude, temperature, weight, etc.

Example of a turn rate and g load chart:

Also, being able to "turn better" does not mean you will achieve certain victory. Speed, avionics, stealth, weapons, are all just as important.

J-20 is very mysterious and little is known about it.

Fighters from the last generation are mysterious and poorly understood by the public, just not as much as 5th gen fighters. You don't go around telling everyone exactly how your weapon works because then they can just counter it.

 

[Dotini]

Human Events, a US news weekly favoring such conservatives as Gingrich, Limbaugh, Cheney and Palin, has published an article claiming US President Obama has declared a new Cold War against China, along with a list of Obama's complaints against the giant Communist Asian nation.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=47754

Meanwhile, that scurrilous British rag, the Daily Mail, has seen fit to publish an article with the encouraging title, "Will World War III be between the U.S. and China?"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2066380/Will-World-War-III-U-S-China.html#ixzz1eqbpgBgX

I'd like to think this is all in good fun and in the spirit of friendly competition. But I'm afraid it isn't.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Grayfox]

Hey! Stop dissing Americans. We took you down in WWII and we will do it again any day.

The British defeated the Nazi's, America just dropped a few nukes on japan.

In any case CHINESE??? A Chinese SLBM launch off the coast of the US is probably an act of war, it can't even test launch there./QUOTE]

If they were in US waters and if the missile they fired went into US airspace then maybe, but otherwise no.

 

[BobK]

The British defeated the Nazi's, America just dropped a few nukes on japan.

Err, no... if you want to give a single nation credit, give it to Russia for defeating Germany.

 

[Grayfox]

Err, no... if you want to give a single nation credit, give it to Russia for defeating Germany.

Well I did fail history, all I know is America did nothing much besides drop a nuke.

 

[terminator363]

And the conspiracy theories begin!

Edit: I think it's just a plane but if you look closely at the video the object projecting all the smoke is flashing strong light (I have two theories for this, either it's fire from the rocket or more reasonably reflection off the sun).



You can see the fuselage reflecting in the sun.

 

[Crispy]

Just saw this on Yahoo.

Yahoo
Led by their hard-charging professor, a former top Pentagon official, they have translated hundreds of documents, combed through satellite imagery, obtained restricted Chinese military documents and waded through hundreds of gigabytes of online data.
The result of their effort? The largest body of public knowledge about thousands of miles of tunnels dug by the Second Artillery Corps, a secretive branch of the Chinese military in charge of protecting and deploying its ballistic missiles and nuclear warheads.
The study is yet to be released, but already it has sparked a congressional hearing and been circulated among top officials in the Pentagon, including the Air Force vice chief of staff.
Most of the attention has focused on the 363-page study’s provocative conclusion — that China’s nuclear arsenal could be many times larger than the well-established estimates of arms-control experts.

http://news.yahoo.com/digging-china-nuclear-tunnels-013008319.html

What are your thoughts?

 

[Dotini]

Very interesting indeed!

But it probably should be combined with the existing thread, "The Threat From China - Real or Not?"

I'm of the opinion that these tunnels are for deep survivability reasons as much as to store excessive quantities of warheads.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Villain]

I agree with the Dotster. That was my first impression as well. 👍

 

[Crispy]

I agree.

How do I merge into that thread? I became completely braindead and forgot about that thread when posting.

 

[Villain]

Just report it, provide link to the other thread and say please.

 

[Dotini]

"China will not hesitate to protect Iran even with a third World War" Major General Zhang Zhaozhong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPjxeyG-Ztw

An interesting interpretation of statement made by a Chinese professor.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[a6m5]

World War III is bit much, but way I see it, countries like Russia & China, who are in a continuous struggle against the West, they need countries like Iran, North Korea as buffers. Basically, in my theory, without these buffers, it will cause the direct conflict between Russia/China & the U.S./Western Europe to be great & too frequent.

On the Chinese tunnel network thing, I am more surprised that there are people who are actually surprised by the discovery. We are talking about SUPER secretive communist government which grew up during the Cold War. Do we know about all the underground facilities that are operated by the U.S. or Russia?

Now, if they discovered something like that in Japan or UK or something, that would be news. We wonder if something like that are possible, but that would be one tricky maneuver by the respective government. It would be much harder to shut the people up about any projects.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

"China will not hesitate to protect Iran even with a third World War" Major General Zhang Zhaozhong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPjxeyG-Ztw

An interesting interpretation of statement made by a Chinese professor.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Iran and Syria are certainly 2 of the most dangerous subjects in a divide between the Nato and Russia-China blocks.
An ever remaining discussion between interventionist politics or internal affairs.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Now, if they discovered something like that in Japan or UK or something, that would be news. We wonder if something like that are possible, but that would be one tricky maneuver by the respective government. It would be much harder to shut the people up about any projects.

You know us too well.

 

[sumbrownkid]

China and America will have to think really, really, really hard if they do want to war with each other. But such a war would be catastrophic for the global economy let alone America's and China's.

It doesn't help when the enemy you're fighting against happens to provide the most if not all of the factories that make of our stuff.

Besides, I don't think each of our country's population can stomach going to war against very modern opponents.

 

[a6m5]

You know us too well.

At least it's highlighted in red, so that should help......

 

[Dotini]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-16173768

Apparently tens of thousands of times a year, spontaneous uprisings occur against local Chinese officials after the land of villagers is seized.

Corruption, kleptocracy and communism seem to be the sustaining(?) hallmarks of current Chinese government. Is this system to be admired for it's ability to deliver economic growth, or despised for its brutality and realpolitik?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Not all demonstrations everywhere are reported.

Although it does not make China a threat, it seems sad that freedom of press is still very limited.

 

[Ibonibo]

You know us too well.

Sorry I need to post that in the Funny thread. It just misses an excalmation mark (!)

Well I did fail history, all I know is America did nothing much besides drop a nuke.

off topic but let me help you with that: the US didn't want to enter an other war. The alliences of Europe were mainly the Uk and Canada. Russia only stepped in because hitler assaulted them despite an agreement of not doing so. Russia adopted the strategy of burnt soil, which was heavily damaging the Nazis supplies.
Pearl harbor was the turning point for the US.
Now if Pearl habor was intentionally happening to get the US people to support a war or not, is a different matter, and one which we will never fully know probably. But indications tend to that hypothesis.
After Pearl Harbor, the US stepped in and helped quite a lot.
Now would the nazis had been defeated without the US. maybe but it would have been a lot longer war (lot more deads that we would count now in our history books).
Why the Us dropped the A-bombs:
- to shorten the war in the pacific considerably, and so saving american soldiers lifes.
- test the A-bombs in a realistic scenario with humans and strenghten the international percieved force of the US (they were after all the big player for many decades)

 

[ExigeEvan]

off topic but let me help you with that: the US didn't want to enter an other war. The alliences of Europe were mainly the Uk and Canada. Russia only stepped in because hitler assaulted them despite an agreement of not doing so. Russia adopted the strategy of burnt soil, which was heavily damaging the Nazis supplies.
Pearl harbor was the turning point for the US.
Now if Pearl habor was intentionally happening to get the US people to support a war or not, is a different matter, and one which we will never fully know probably. But indications tend to that hypothesis.
After Pearl Harbor, the US stepped in and helped quite a lot.
Now would the nazis had been defeated without the US. maybe but it would have been a lot longer war (lot more deads that we would count now in our history books).

The US was involved prior to PH with not only the extensive lend-lease agreement but aggression in the Atlantic required to protect the Atlantic convoys.

Regardless of whether the wanted to get involved, they were well aware it was going to happen soon enough.

Why the Us dropped the A-bombs:
- to shorten the war in the pacific considerably, and so saving american soldiers lifes.
- test the A-bombs in a realistic scenario with humans and strenghten the international percieved force of the US (they were after all the big player for many decades)

Some could argue that the A bomb saved Japanese lives too. Japanese spirit at the time was to never surrender, no matter the consequences. A conventional war would have seen street-to-street fighting in every city and town and rice paddy of Japan. America went un-conventional and you could argue it paid off.

 

[Grayfox]

I know the threat is not real cause of this video.
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/viralvacuum/glance/208952/soldier-fails-hand-grenade-class.glance

 

[Dotini]

http://articles.boston.com/2011-12-26/news/30559555_1_explosives-missiles-finland
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57346936/finland-still-probing-patriot-missile-ship/

69(!) undocumented Patriot missiles found in Finland on a ship bound from Germany to China and South Korea. They have been seized by the Finnish military.


Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Edit:
This source (integrity unknown to me) indicates the missiles were of the most advanced design, and originally consigned to Israel and were bound for China.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/12/23/breaking-patriot-missiles-seized-sold-to-china-by-israel/
Curiously, this Israeli blog also says the ship (Registered Isle of Man) was headed to Shanghai.
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/12/finland-impounds-ship-with-undeclared.html

Also this: http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_b52_2/missiles-finnish-ship.html

 

[a6m5]

http://articles.boston.com/2011-12-26/news/30559555_1_explosives-missiles-finland
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57346936/finland-still-probing-patriot-missile-ship/

69(!) undocumented Patriot missiles found in Finland on a ship bound from Germany to China and South Korea. They have been seized by the Finnish military.


Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Edit:
This source (integrity unknown to me) indicates the missiles were of the most advanced design, and originally consigned to Israel and were bound for China.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/12/23/breaking-patriot-missiles-seized-sold-to-china-by-israel/
Curiously, this Israeli blog also says the ship (Registered Isle of Man) was headed to Shanghai.
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2011/12/finland-impounds-ship-with-undeclared.html

Also this: http://newsfeedresearcher.com/data/articles_b52_2/missiles-finnish-ship.html

Chinese spies succeeded in stealing sensitive data regarding Aegis missile defense system few years ago. This was made possible my country's military, Japan Idiot Self-Defense Force. I honestly think this top secret intel leak shot down Japan's chance of acquiring F22 Raptor from the U.S.

Anywho, Patriots are part of the Aegis missile defense system. Russians & Chinese despises Aegis, because it compromises their ballistic missile arsenal.

Nobody knows for sure how effective Aegis defense will be, but it looks like the Chinese might be investing some serious cash and manpower to handicap, or possibly disabling the Aegis system, if the news is true.

I always hoped for diplomatic, lead-by-example kind of China, but all this espionage stuff, at least to me(I'm not Jack Ryan), shows me a country preparing for a conflict, or at least some aggressive military & political posturing.

 

[Zupplu]

Every one knows china is going to take over the world one day.......... I think if all us aussies were heavily armed and every one from china wasnt the still beat the cr@p out of us. They just run at us and we would be as good as dead. They have too many people, there technology is advancing too quickly, seriously i dont trust them. It is inevitble.........
(no offense to any chinese people)

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Every one knows china is going to take over the world one day.......

Now where I agree that their economical importance will make that we will see them everywhere and they will become a big pressure group on governments everywhere, I disagree they will try to do this by force.

I think that the result of the terror governments in the USSR, China, Vietnam, Cuba, etc... showed that this is difficult to maintain certainly big scale.
If there would be a way to propagate an ideology (not even certain that is on the agenda), it will be with economical pressure.

Ironically it seems that the "Peoples" republic is so competitive since it gives little to its people. The west is more "social" then it believes to be.

On the stealing of weapons, that is not immediately linked to using them, just showing off.

 

[Dotini]

An immediate problem that is bubbling up is proposed EU and US sanctions on Iranian oil exports. These oil exports are their major source of income - oxygen vital for life, if you will. We are threatening them with slow death unless they knuckle under to our demands.

Iran, being backed by Russia and China in the UN and perhaps also militarily, is threatening to close (the Strait of Hormuz into) the Persian Gulf in retaliation for these Western sanctions. If successful, this could shut off ~40% of the world's oil supply and very conceivably precipitate something bordering on WWIII, whether hot or cold, with totally unknown consequences to most developed and developing nations on Earth.

I fear President Obama, having acquired a taste for killing people and asserting a sort of unfettered Imperial authority, may one day soon exceed his abilities and resources in the great game of Risk (i.e., world control).

2012 will be an "interesting" year.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[axletramp]

I don't know, would China really do that? Surely the western world is it's major customer and does a very good job of keeping the wealthy ruling classes, well... wealthy. I'm not sure of the benefits to them of cutting off oil supplies and militarily threatening nations who it is currently helping to bail out of economic recession as it essentially does not want to lose sales?

 

[W3H5]

The Threat From China - Real or Not?

But seriously....

Only to Hollywood distributors, software developers and chickens!

That's all I can say in this thread without getting locked out of this site.