The Trump Impeachment Thread

[Biggles]

The problem with the two party system is that it strongly depends on what's on the other side of the vote. By the time you're getting into the territory of "I will vote for anything that isn't this" then things are pretty bad. You would hope for a system that is a little more responsive than that.

Yes - things are pretty bad. The point I'm making is that when Hitler used the electoral system to come to power he was assisted by the multi-party system that diluted what might have been an effective opposition to Nazism. On the other hand, the American people voted by a small, but significant margin against Trumpism. it's not inconceivable that fragmenting the vote through votes for the Greens, for the Libertarian party or others might have allowed Trump back in.

Just listened to Rep Neguse make the case against Trump. It's hard to understand how any reasonable person would not conclude that Trump should be convicted.

 

[Joey D]

it's not inconceivable that fragmenting the vote through votes for the Greens, for the Libertarian party or others might have allowed Trump back in.

People who vote third party would rarely vote for a Democrat or Republican. While there are certainly some, a majority of Libertarians wouldn't have voted for Trump just as a majority of Greens wouldn't have voted for Biden. There's not much of a vote fracture there.

Looking at the 2020 election, less than two million people voted Libertarian, and even if all those people had voted for Trump, it wouldn't have mattered. The Greens has less the 500,000 votes so that certainly didn't have any bearing on Biden's win.

 

[TexRex]

People who vote third party would rarely vote for a Democrat or Republican. While there are certainly some, a majority of Libertarians wouldn't have voted for Trump just as a majority of Greens wouldn't have voted for Biden. There's not much of a vote fracture there.

Looking at the 2020 election, less than two million people voted Libertarian, and even if all those people had voted for Trump, it wouldn't have mattered. The Greens has less the 500,000 votes so that certainly didn't have any bearing on Biden's win.

The implication seems to be that Trump's numbers would have been unaffected while votes that ultimately went to Biden would likely have been diluted among other candidates so that Trump got the most votes out of all individual candidates despite not garnering a majority.

It's possible...I guess...but it doesn't happen in a vacuum, and such a scenario would undoubtedly be preceeded by a series of countless possible scenarios that differ potentially wildly from what actually occurred.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

People who vote third party would rarely vote for a Democrat or Republican. While there are certainly some, a majority of Libertarians wouldn't have voted for Trump just as a majority of Greens wouldn't have voted for Biden. There's not much of a vote fracture there.

Looking at the 2020 election, less than two million people voted Libertarian, and even if all those people had voted for Trump, it wouldn't have mattered. The Greens has less the 500,000 votes so that certainly didn't have any bearing on Biden's win.

I would vote third party if there was universal ranked-choice voting.

 

[jjaisli]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/defendants-charged-capitol-insurrection-something-162754024.html

The defendants charged in the Capitol insurrection have something in common: a history of financial woes

• Many of the Capitol riot defendants have something in common: a history of financial difficulties.
  
  
• A Washington Post analysis found that a substantial number of defendants had money woes.
  
  
• The documented financial problems include bankruptcies, debt, foreclosures, and unpaid taxes.

I take it all back...Trump's supporters really ARE just like him.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/defendants-charged-capitol-insurrection-something-162754024.html

• Many of the Capitol riot defendants have something in common: a history of financial difficulties.
  
  
• A Washington Post analysis found that a substantial number of defendants had money woes.
  
  
• The documented financial problems include bankruptcies, debt, foreclosures, and unpaid taxes.

I take it all back...Trump's supporters really ARE just like him.

There's something inherently Trumpy about living "beyond your means".

Millionaires in mind, ambition, and sense of entitlement...if not in bank statements (edit: nor ability/work ethic)

 

[McLaren]

People who vote third party would rarely vote for a Democrat or Republican. While there are certainly some, a majority of Libertarians wouldn't have voted for Trump just as a majority of Greens wouldn't have voted for Biden. There's not much of a vote fracture there.

Looking at the 2020 election, less than two million people voted Libertarian, and even if all those people had voted for Trump, it wouldn't have mattered. The Greens has less the 500,000 votes so that certainly didn't have any bearing on Biden's win.

Interesting stats. I was always tickled reading a couple posts every so often on r/conservative from folks upset the Libertarians didn’t get behind Trump (since they’re closer to Repubs than Dems) and they somehow contributed to Trump losing.

I give the Libertarians that responded credit though. “Why would I vote for Trump? He’s just as **** as Biden”. They stuck to their candidate for their own reasons.

 

[Danoff]

Interesting stats. I was always tickled reading a couple posts every so often on r/conservative from folks upset the Libertarians didn’t get behind Trump (since they’re closer to Repubs than Dems) and they somehow contributed to Trump losing.

I give the Libertarians that responded credit though. “Why would I vote for Trump? He’s just as **** as Biden”. They stuck to their candidate for their own reasons.

...and of course some of us voted for Biden.

 

[TexRex]

Interesting stats. I was always tickled reading a couple posts every so often on r/conservative from folks upset the Libertarians didn’t get behind Trump (since they’re closer to Repubs than Dems) and they somehow contributed to Trump losing.

I give the Libertarians that responded credit though. “Why would I vote for Trump? He’s just as **** as Biden”. They stuck to their candidate for their own reasons.

I don't do Reddit, but this sentiment crops up in comment sections for relevant articles on The Hill and it never fails to put a smile on my face.

 

[UKMikey]

...and of course some of us voted for Biden.

Because you had a compelling reason in that you saw Trump as much more **** than Biden. Those Trumpies seem pretty angry though and sound like they need a scapegoat for their loss that isn't orange.

 

[Biggles]

People who vote third party would rarely vote for a Democrat or Republican. While there are certainly some, a majority of Libertarians wouldn't have voted for Trump just as a majority of Greens wouldn't have voted for Biden. There's not much of a vote fracture there.

Looking at the 2020 election, less than two million people voted Libertarian, and even if all those people had voted for Trump, it wouldn't have mattered. The Greens has less the 500,000 votes so that certainly didn't have any bearing on Biden's win.

It's a general statement, rather than a specific reference to the 2020 election. It's conceivable than in a true multi-party system splitting the vote among several parties could lead to a candidate like Trump winning, in the same way that Hitler won the July 1932 election with 37% of the popular vote. In the 1996 Presidential election Ross Perot got 8.4% of the vote & no EC votes, thereby helping Bill Clinton win an overwhelming victory over Bob Dole in the EC.

In the 2020 election, I suspect many traditional Republican-leaning voters & independents voted for Biden ... as well as Danoff. The two party system is a blunt edged instrument, but it does sort of "focus the mind" when it comes to a crisis.

I would vote third party if there was universal ranked-choice voting.

Reading about the potential pluses & minuses of ranked-choice voting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting

It seems like a very sensible idea in principle ... but it's hard to get beyond the inherently undemocratic foundation of the American electoral system. Why would an idea that's "sensible in principle" gain traction in a country that is is so proud of its demonstrably inequitable electoral system (it's a REPUBLIC!)?

 

[Danoff]

I had not previously understood that only a simple majority is required to bar Trump from ever holding office again in the future. So that lives or dies with conviction basically.

Edit:

Oh maybe not! Apparently there is some potential for disqualification from holding future office based on a simple majority even if conviction does not occur! Holy crap.

 

[UKMikey]

I had not previously understood that only a simple majority is required to bar Trump from ever holding office again in the future. So that lives or dies with conviction basically.

Edit:

Oh maybe not! Apparently there is some potential for disqualification from holding future office based on a simple majority even if conviction does not occur! Holy crap.

If by some miracle Trump were to be barred from ever running for political office again, I figure his thralls would argue that this was proof that he had the deep state rattled and that they had to ban him because he was about to blow everthing wide open.

While all the time muttering about PC cancel culture out of the other side of their mouths.

 

[Biggles]

I'm not sure that barring Trump from running for President is what's important. What's important is that a large majority of the American public understands how unacceptable what he did is & would never even consider voting for him in the future. The best outcome would be for Trump to run again, get totally crushed & pull down the Republican party with him. Complete repudiation by the American people would be a more powerful statement than an impeachment vote IMO.

 

[Dennisch]

I'm not sure that barring Trump from running for President is what's important. What's important is that a large majority of the American public understands how unacceptable what he did is & would never even consider voting for him in the future. The best outcome would be for Trump to run again, get totally crushed & pull down the Republican party with him. Complete repudiation by the American people would be a more powerful statement than an impeachment vote IMO.

Yeah, and if the Democrats **** up Biden's term you have Trump back in the White House. Good plan.

 

[Biggles]

Yeah, and if the Democrats **** up Biden's term you have Trump back in the White House. Good plan.

Well, the reality is that it is extremely unlikely that the Senate will vote to convict Trump. The impeachment trial seems intended more to convince the American public that Trump is unfit to hold office. At some point you have to trust that American voters will do the right thing.

 

[UKMikey]

Well, the reality is that it is extremely unlikely that the Senate will vote to convict Trump. The impeachment trial seems intended more to convince the American public that Trump is unfit to hold office. At some point you have to trust that American voters will do the right thing.

Does it need to convince the people who didn't vote for Trump and wouldn't next time, or the people who did vote for him? Because I don't think they're listening.

 

[Liquid]

The Capitol riot feels more and more like a moment or event equivalent to the Beer Hall Putsch.

 

[UKMikey]

Paging @Joey D: Utah senator Mike Lee's request that Trump take a mulligan for inciting insurrection isn't being received too well on social media.

 

[Scaff]

Meanwhile, the Mandalorian is going to be down a cast member after Gina Carson went on a mad Twitter rant about how Republicans are being treated like Jews in 1930’s Germany.

https://www.ladbible.com/entertainm...UhFAQvAvFuLzxtZm39StCO2PHYUqRFohvRD5EGu2h-T2E

 

[Liquid]

Republicans are being treated like Jews in 1930’s Germany.

Anybody able to help me? I'm one letter away from solving this word game:

P_RS_CUTION COMPL_X

Hey, don't persecute the persecutors. That's unfair.

 

[Keef]

Meanwhile, the Mandalorian is going to be down a cast member after Gina Carson went on a mad Twitter rant about how Republicans are being treated like Jews in 1930’s Germany.

https://www.ladbible.com/entertainm...UhFAQvAvFuLzxtZm39StCO2PHYUqRFohvRD5EGu2h-T2E

She's got the history somewhat correct but the correlation makes no sense at all...unless you believe Jews were a menace to society like Republicans are. Hopefully they've at least written her out properly and that's too bad because she had a good character, new job in the show, etc. She was literally in the final scene. I assume they've already been filming season three and probably waited until they could fire her since her messages were posted months ago.

Anyways, Speaking of Mike Lee @UKMikey I happened to turn on the news last night and watched some arguments, including a spat of confusion on the floor that took about 10 minutes to resolve. Somebody asked for a roll call vote on something, I still don't know what it was, Senators were asking what it was. What did make sense is that Mike Lee objected to the use by the prosecution of news reports' account of him overhearing Tuberville's phone call with Trump. The prosecution quoted the news stories properly but his complaint was that the news story itself was false and needed to be struck from the record. They did strike it from the record, to little effect, however it's weird that Mike Lee is just now complaining about this...he's had over a month to address this to the media and never did. Those stories came out about a month ago. Did he just now learn about this story? Which raises the question, are Republicans just now learning about some of this material the prosecution is using, perhaps because they only watch Fox News which had never shown some of it? If so, they're in for a wild ride.

 

[Danoff]

The Capitol riot feels more and more like a moment or event equivalent to the Beer Hall Putsch.

You think that buffalo guy is going to take over the country in a few years?

 

[Liquid]

You think that buffalo guy is going to take over the country in a few years?

I'm not making an exact like for like comparison but I do think that legitimate parallels can be made.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not making an exact like for like comparison but I do think that legitimate parallels can be made.

I was poking because I figured you meant for Trump to be the Hitler analog. But the problem with that comparison is that Trump is already the disgraced ex-leader of the nation, so a new rise doesn't exactly fit well. The country just decisively voted him out. I don't see most of those people changing their minds. In fact it seems to be moving the other way (at least at this instant in time).

 

[Liquid]

Yeah and Hitler actually did go to prison after the Beer Hall Putsch so I guess the analogies with Trump stop there...

 

[Joey D]

Paging @Joey D: Utah senator Mike Lee's request that Trump take a mulligan for inciting insurrection isn't being received too well on social media.

Fun fact, Mike Lee is an utter d-bag and a pseudo libertarian. I'd rather eat an egg salad sandwich and some sushi from a gas station than vote for him.

 

[Biggles]

Yeah, and if the Democrats **** up Biden's term you have Trump back in the White House. Good plan.

What exactly IS a "good plan"?

Any reasonable observer would conclude that Trump deserves to be impeached for his behaviour. The Democrats have no choice but to try & convict him. It seems that Republicans will not vote too convict. This makes them as culpable as Trump & they deserve to be punished for this failure to act responsibly.

At the end of the day, the remedy lies with American voters. They need to do the right thing & reject Trump AND his enablers in the GOP.

Does it need to convince the people who didn't vote for Trump and wouldn't next time, or the people who did vote for him? Because I don't think they're listening.

There's no way Trump's "base" is going to desert him IMO. However, there is hope that enough fence sitters will be disgusted by Trump's actions after the November election that Democrats will pick up, rather than lose seats in the House in the mid-terms. It may be that they can also pick up two or three Senate seats - not enough to decisively switch control away from Republicans, but enough to convince Republicans to abandon the Trump train for good.

 

[Keef]

Fun fact, Mike Lee is an utter d-bag and a pseudo libertarian. I'd rather eat an egg salad sandwich and some sushi from a gas station than vote for him.

Remember was neoconservatism was all the rage, and we were wailing about how terrible they were? They hardly even exist anymore. I was going to call Mike Lee a neocon but I think he's more of a tea partier-turned-Trumpist. I really don't even know what to call the Republican movement going on currently besides Trumpian, anti-American, traitorous, I really don't know. Have we developed a name for it yet? The entire tea party movement doesn't exist anymore either. This new stuff has all developed during Trump's time in office.

 

[Danoff]

Remember was neoconservatism was all the rage, and we were wailing about how terrible they were? They hardly even exist anymore. I was going to call Mike Lee a neocon but I think he's more of a tea partier-turned-Trumpist. I really don't even know what to call the Republican movement going on currently besides Trumpian, anti-American, traitorous, I really don't know. Have we developed a name for it yet? The entire tea party movement doesn't exist anymore either. This new stuff has all developed during Trump's time in office.

There's some grumbling in the GOP about fracturing into a new party. They can hash out the trademark dispute, and we'll see who gets the new name . If this is all the 2nd impeachment accomplishes (and I don't think it is), just grumbling over a split, it's worthwhile.

============================

I'm not sure everyone is appreciating how truly in-shambles the GOP is right now. Yes, there are loyalists who are still ready to be violent, but those loyalists are a huge problem for the party. I think if we held the november election again today, knowing what we know now, that the events of January 6th would almost certainly swing the election even more decisively against the republicans. Remember, Trump lost the electoral college by a good margin in November, and cratered the runoffs in Georgia. He hasn't gained popularity since. And neither have the Republicans in the senate.

The in-fighting, news lawsuits, and upcoming legal investigations (and probably court proceedings) are not going to give the party a good look - and it's only going to deepen the fracture within the right.

It may not be absolutely is not 100% of them that are willing to condemn violence and coups, but some of them are, and some of their constituents are as well. They are a broken group right now, very much at deep odds with each other. Meanwhile the democrats are more united than I've seen them in a long time. The pendulum can swing the other way of course, but it's not a good time to be a republican today.

One thing we may (perhaps likely) see out of all of this is more right-wing terrorist activity from people who feel that their only recourse is to go shoot up a football game or school.