The war on ISIS.

[doblocruiser]

It has nothing to do with racism It has to do with protection of our values and culture. Some cultures just dont match.

There are many immigrants who want to make a better life and they adapt in the country they live in. That takes courage. The problem is that a lot just want to de-stabilize and add nothing to the country I value. I should just accept?

Respect has to be shown both ways. What do you think that would happen to westerns if they are unwilling to adapt if they would live in the middle east? .....

 

[Akira AC]

It has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with protection of our values and culture.

There are many immigrants who want to make a better life and they adapt in the country they live in. That takes courage. The problem is that a lot just want to de-stabilize and add nothing to the country I value. I should just accept?

Respect has to be shown both ways. What do you think that would happen to westerns if they are unwilling to adapt if they would live in the middle east?

It has nothing to do with racism. Some cultures just dont match.

It is racism, the false idea of "a lot of them" just shows how blind ignorant a person might be.

I'm yet to see the first Mexican in US soil to execute a terrorist attack, immigration control is not a solution, and forcing a complete ideology is just a form on modern Nazism. The west proudly sells an idea of freedom which is the whole point of why people go to such places, hence why people got out of their places they belong in the first place, the idea of them culturally colonizing them is an stupid idea indeed, if they go to such places is to find a better live than what they have or adopt other culture different to them, not to impose their culture into them, because that's what the west does.

The lack of cultural exchange and recognition is the worst form of racism, people being paranoid of "them" makes them blindly ignorant, I have had the luck of experiencing different people, cultures and ideologies. And thanks to that exchange I get to see the world in a wider spectrum, I know Muslims, Jewish, Buddhists, capitalists, extreme communists, socialists, etc... I don't affiliate with any of them (me personally be an atheist, and a bit of a left wing guy), yet I am not influenced by them, I understand their goals, needs and struggles and all I see is different people, not their ideologies, avoiding such an exchange and diversity is what makes the world stupid and retarded and is what fuels the worst parts of retardation and the worst atrocities witnessed in human history.

Yet, people won't learn, they want the safe heaven for themselves, blindly living in that bubble of ignorance.


At the end of the day is a struggle between "X" and "Y" powers, while the population is being told lies and manipulative information just to increase that cultural divide, which is what makes everything worse nowadays and why the extremists exists in the first place.

 

[Joel]

I always find the talk about multiculturalism being almost inherently negative to be strange. Toronto is a city where 50% of the population are foreign born. It's one of the most multicultural cities in the world, and it's a total non story to people who live there.

It doesn't impact people's lives in any significant way. People in Toronto go about their daily lives the same way everyone else in Canada does. Virtually every culture on earth is represented there, and somehow despite that Toronto isn't rife with cultural tensions or violence. It's the same thing in Vancouver, the debates that take place in both cities are about money, real estate prices, transit, and economic issues. Toronto and Vancouver aren't constantly having culture debates, people are free to live in the city and express their own cultures.

Then in Quebec you have draconian measures to preserve culture which are a constant and unending topic of debate. Almost like trying to legislate a single cultural identity is a bad idea.

 

[doblocruiser]

So calling me blind and ignorant makes your opinion correct? And yes, you too are influenced by the people you live with and by the expériences you made.

I disagree with what you have stated. As soon as people don't agree with a left-wing point of view they are racists.

Go figure...

We are talking about middle-east, not immigrants from other parts of the world. I come from a multi-culti country and I can tell you that it only works with several different cultures until a certain level as long as they both cooperate and respect the society they live in.

Go check crime rates in several European countries and you'll see what I am talking about.

 

[rickykaka3]

Mission of yankees and jews has succeeded, bringing chaos to Middle East countries...4.6 million Iraqis were killed (tell me that they were all terrorists...) since 1990s by the invasion of 'muricans puppets soldiers.

Middle East countries were so nice to see and full of culture before all this wars, so sad to see what humans can do.

 

[mister dog]

What these conflicts do to people:

 

[Carbonox]

I always find the talk about multiculturalism being almost inherently negative to be strange. Toronto is a city where 50% of the population are foreign born. It's one of the most multicultural cities in the world, and it's a total non story to people who live there.

It doesn't impact people's lives in any significant way. People in Toronto go about their daily lives the same way everyone else in Canada does. Virtually every culture on earth is represented there, and somehow despite that Toronto isn't rife with cultural tensions or violence. It's the same thing in Vancouver, the debates that take place in both cities are about money, real estate prices, transit, and economic issues. Toronto and Vancouver aren't constantly having culture debates, people are free to live in the city and express their own cultures.

Then in Quebec you have draconian measures to preserve culture which are a constant and unending topic of debate. Almost like trying to legislate a single cultural identity is a bad idea.

Hmh, I've heard of that Toronto thing before.

Admittedly crime rates are low in the Canadian metropolis, but that's why we don't need to go around tampering with it either. Instead, we should focus on preventing "no-go zones" from forming around Europe. Last time I checked, it's officially legal for the white population - just like anyone else - to go anywhere they want. But problems arise as soon as they're met with stone-throwers in those areas.

Getting rid of no-go zones isn't racism. It's actually fighting against it.

 

[Furinkazen]

In b4 (or after) ridiculous "DEPORT THEM, REMOVE THEM" comments.

The terrorist group (ISIS) are trying to turn Iraq into the Islamic state. That is in principle removing all christians, whilst going into more radical elements of islamification (such as taking away womens rights, etc). This has caused terror amongst the Iraqi people themselves, most don't want this, but with gunmen taking towns and places what can be done to avoid a civil war?

Western intervention is ironic however considering it is more of a case of "we screwed up your country so bad, so we got to try help to make ourselves look better".

Hoping it works out though.

 

[Rage Racer]

So what side will the West take here? The one "democratic" side that was democratically backed by the US after dethroning the dictator Hussaine, or another "democratic" side that also democratically fights against the dictator Assad in Syria?

 

[Blitz24]

So what side will the West take here? The one "democratic" side that was democratically backed by the US after dethroning the dictator Hussaine, or another "democratic" side that also democratically fights against the dictator Assad in Syria?

Which side actually works?

 

[ClydeYellow]

That's what happens when you're not careful with your actions and create a power vacuum: someone's gonna fill it somehow.

P.S: a reminder that there are three sides in Syria. Right now it's Assad vs. the Free Syrian Army vs. the ISIS and al Nuzra.

 

[Rage Racer]

Which side actually works?

Uhm... What, the first "democratic" side doesn't seem to be working at all..?

*black humour mode ON*
The possible end of this story:

 

[sumbrownkid]

Let them sort it out themselves and don't waiste the 8 o'clock news on it. It's an instable, barbaric and intollerant region. With that a culture and religion that are far from civilized and one which justifies violence. Mix that with highly explosive extremists and you can have quite a party.

Well that almost can be said for the whole middle-east.

If it really was as barbaric, instable, and intolerant as you make it out to be, then I can assure you that all of the world's Muslims, of which there are plenty, will and probably can plunge this world into chaos. But thankfully that's not the case is it? It's a bunch of uneducated, angry, and poor people with access to hardware that are fed up with this useless "democracy" that we, the United States, failed to install properly and are now putting into affect what they believe is the proper course of action.

Seeing you're from France, I would've expected some more pragmatic thought into this instead of the old "They are barbaric blah blah blah". The U.S. Constitution also justifies war, does that make America barbaric?

Well this is one Muslim who isn't one. And protecting culture only leads to isolation and resentment. It makes you look arrogant as well.

I guess this Iraq situation is another example of America failing to export "Freedom". You can't have a Democracy when people are hungry and poor. It also doesn't help that Maliki is also low on support and his government is filled to the brim with corruption.

 

[doblocruiser]

If it really was as barbaric, instable, and intolerant as you make it out to be, then I can assure you that all of the world's Muslims, of which there are plenty, will and probably can plunge this world into chaos. But thankfully that's not the case is it? It's a bunch of uneducated, angry, and poor people with access to hardware that are fed up with this useless "democracy" that we, the United States, failed to install properly and are now putting into affect what they believe is the proper course of action.

Seeing you're from France, I would've expected some more pragmatic thought into this instead of the old "They are barbaric blah blah blah". The U.S. Constitution also justifies war, does that make America barbaric?

Well this is one Muslim who isn't one. And protecting culture only leads to isolation and resentment. It makes you look arrogant as well.

I guess this Iraq situation is another example of America failing to export "Freedom". You can't have a Democracy when people are hungry and poor. It also doesn't help that Maliki is also low on support and his government is filled to the brim with corruption.

If you read my other post I said as well that there are many who do make an effort to participate and make a better life into the country they immigrated to

I am against putting western values as thé values. Values differ and that's why you can't force your will onto other countries/cultures.

What the US did in Iraq and what Europe did in Ukraine is wrong and very dangerous.

 

[sumbrownkid]

If you read my other post I said as well that do make an effort to participate and make a better live into the country they immigrated to

I've read that as well, but I felt like I had to respond to that. No hard feelings. I know immigrants though that refuse to assimilate which puzzles me because then why bother moving and wasting all that money? I know new customs and traditions are something that takes time to get used too, but it's not exactly an exam on advanced theoretical astro physics.

I myself moved to the US from Saudi (Indian btw, and there are ALOT of us in Saudi). The only thing I hated was learning English because English as a language just does not make sense.

 

[Joel]

Hmh, I've heard of that Toronto thing before.

Admittedly crime rates are low in the Canadian metropolis, but that's why we don't need to go around tampering with it either.

Crime rates are quite low across Canada. The parts of the country with the highest crime rates are the Maritimes (Halifax), and western parts of the country (Winnipeg), which are both very predominantly white. These also happen to be the poorest parts of the country excluding the Territories where crime and poverty are both major issues. Poverty and crime tend to go hand in hand, the data in Canada would show little to suggest the ethnic makeup of cities is related to their crime rates.

Instead, we should focus on preventing "no-go zones" from forming around Europe. Last time I checked, it's officially legal for the white population - just like anyone else - to go anywhere they want. But problems arise as soon as they're met with stone-throwers in those areas.

Honestly I had no idea until now that "no-go zones" were even a thing. That's what I mean, this discussion is just absolutely bizarre because it's a complete non issue here. There aren't parts of cities that are off limits to certain races/backgrounds or where police won't respond to. Maybe I have a privileged perspective as a white guy, but there's been nowhere in Toronto I've felt unwelcome because of my ethnicity.

Getting rid of no-go zones isn't racism. It's actually fighting against it.

You're not going to find anyone reasonable who disagrees that treating all citizens equally under the law is a bad thing. Of course, it begs the question of why parts of Europe are being "threatened by Sharia Law" while it hasn't been an issue here.

 

[mister dog]

Well Obama says the different fractions will have to work together, but i guess deep down inside he also realizes that's probably not gonna happen...

 

[Carbonox]

Honestly I had no idea until now that "no-go zones" were even a thing. That's what I mean, this discussion is just absolutely bizarre because it's a complete non issue here. There aren't parts of cities that are off limits to certain races/backgrounds or where police won't respond to. Maybe I have a privileged perspective as a white guy, but there's been nowhere in Toronto I've felt unwelcome because of my ethnicity.

Was speaking about Europe there. We don't have it as nice as you do across the pond.

You're not going to find anyone reasonable who disagrees that treating all citizens equally under the law is a bad thing. Of course, it begs the question of why parts of Europe are being "threatened by Sharia Law" while it hasn't been an issue here.

Thought I'd make it clear for some people who think that everything that aims to eliminate criminal immigrants is racism.

 

[doblocruiser]

OT:

@sumbrownkid My origins are not from France. I had to adapt as well. I made all the efforts I could to integrate in this country I deeply love. I almost live here for 2 years. People hear that I am not French but they really like to see some one who makes an effort to learn their habbits. Language is the hardest part but I manage.

Oh and I wrote "almost" the whole middle east In fact I am a big fan of the Saluki's they should have their origins from the région you come from.

 

[Spurgy 777]

It is racism, the false idea of "a lot of them" just shows how blind ignorant a person might be.

I'm yet to see the first Mexican in US soil to execute a terrorist attack, immigration control is not a solution, and forcing a complete ideology is just a form on modern Nazism. The west proudly sells an idea of freedom which is the whole point of why people go to such places, hence why people got out of their places they belong in the first place, the idea of them culturally colonizing them is an stupid idea indeed, if they go to such places is to find a better live than what they have or adopt other culture different to them, not to impose their culture into them, because that's what the west does.

The lack of cultural exchange and recognition is the worst form of racism, people being paranoid of "them" makes them blindly ignorant, I have had the luck of experiencing different people, cultures and ideologies. And thanks to that exchange I get to see the world in a wider spectrum, I know Muslims, Jewish, Buddhists, capitalists, extreme communists, socialists, etc... I don't affiliate with any of them (me personally be an atheist, and a bit of a left wing guy), yet I am not influenced by them, I understand their goals, needs and struggles and all I see is different people, not their ideologies, avoiding such an exchange and diversity is what makes the world stupid and retarded and is what fuels the worst parts of retardation and the worst atrocities witnessed in human history.

Yet, people won't learn, they want the safe heaven for themselves, blindly living in that bubble of ignorance.


At the end of the day is a struggle between "X" and "Y" powers, while the population is being told lies and manipulative information just to increase that cultural divide, which is what makes everything worse nowadays and why the extremists exists in the first place.

What's racist about immigration control?

 

[Rage Racer]

I've read a comment on a discussion of this situation in a Russian community. A guy has said:

The Americans have failed with exporting democracy to this region. They killed Hussaine, but did not defeat the terrorists and radicals.
Fighting radical Islamists with military force is like fighting a plie of feces with a sword: you chop it, the **** splashes around (and on you, too), but it doesn't get less.

That's real!

 

[Akira AC]

What's racist about immigration control?

Is not the concept itself, is the triviality that it conveys because there is already immigration control.


Terrorism is not gonna be fixed by isolation, there are already restrictions of travel or transit if you go from country "X" to country "Y", and even if you did that you cannot control people who are originated or were born in say country (an example would be a Muslim person born in the USA, it can be indoctrinated into committing terrorists acts (if it's an extremists of course) which makes the whole concept useless).

You can't control off communications between country A and country B because you are essentially breaking the basic principals of freedom of speech, you cannot control the transit between people from country A to country B because you would be restricting their freedom of travel. You simply cannot block an idea from trespassing, if Al Qaeda or whatever decided to carry out terrorists attacks tomorrow it would happen no matter what, because you can't simply have complete control over an idea, they could use nationals and still would be possible.

Oh and ...

So calling me blind and ignorant makes your opinion correct? And yes, you too are influenced by the people you live with and by the expériences you made.

I disagree with what you have stated. As soon as people don't agree with a left-wing point of view they are racists.

Go figure...

Followed by ...

We are talking about middle-east, not immigrants from other parts of the world...

If you categorize "them" as different from the rest of the world, then you are basically being what you deny to be, see how it works?

 

[doblocruiser]

@Akira AC I meant in this topic not in general. We talk about the middle-east in this topic.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@Akira AC I meant in this topic not in general. We talk about the middle-east in this topic.

I think you're missing the point of what @Akira AC was saying, in your answer it seems to me that you're still defending what, in definition, seems to be an unfairly generalised view of "a lot" of immigrants (your words).

All you're doing is clarifying that you're being specific about Middle-Eastern emigrants. Ca n'aide pas

The problem is that a lot just want to de-stabilize and add nothing to the country I value.

Some do, certainly. But the same is true of some native French. The same is true here of some native Brits just as it's true of some immigrants.

I think I see what you're trying to say... but I suspect you're not quite getting there.

 

[doblocruiser]

I don't want to generalise the immigrants in general.

I agree with @Akira AC when he says that people should be able to travel freely. I am just saying that as an immigrant one should respect the country and it's values where you want to live. I am not asking that one has to give up his cultural background or his/her beliefs. An immigrant has to adapt so that they can function in the society where they decided to live. You can't expect from natives to respect an immigrant if he/she doesn't make any effort to become part of the society he/she lives in. It also comes down to having respect for both sides. Yes I understand an immigrant who wants to live in this country and I give him/her a chance. On the other side the immigrant shows respect by excepting to learn to way the society in that country works and participates.

The immigrant decides to go live in a certain country so if one comes and doesn't want to adapt,the country can ask them to leave. I think that is fair enough.

I hope I made it a bit more clear.

 

[Carlos]

I don't want to generalise the immigrants in general.

I agree with @Akira AC when he says that people should be able to travel freely. I am just saying that as an immigrant one should respect the country and it's values where you want to live. I am not asking that one has to give up his cultural background or his/her beliefs. An immigrant has to adapt so that they can function in the society where they decided to live. You can't expect from natives to respect an immigrant if he/she doesn't make any effort to become part of the society he/she lives in. It also comes down to having respect for both sides. Yes I understand an immigrant who wants to live in this country and I give him/her a chance. On the other side the immigrant shows respect by excepting to learn to way the society in that country works and participates.

The immigrant decides to go live in a certain country so if one comes and doesn't want to adapt,the country can ask them to leave. I think that is fair enough.

I hope I made it a bit more clear.

They will still label you as racist, because that's the only defence they have and sadly, it works.

 

[TenEightyOne]

They will still label you as racist, because that's the only defence they have and sadly, it works.

People who aren't racist in the sense that they don't feel any antipathy to people of another race/origin can still make statements that are generally racist through misunderstanding. I'm not saying that's the case here, I was saying to mijnheer @doblocruiser that by identifying a transient population of specific origin he was being over-general, that could be seen as racist.

If you drill in to his argument further it makes sense, some immigrants are against their new home, but then some existing residents hate the place too. The opposite can also be true, you just can't generalise in either.

By now you probably now I'm horribly and uselessly pedantic anyway

 

[KSaiyu]

Islamists taking over Iraq

Ohhh if only they would stop there.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Ohhh if only they would stop there.

Here's the thing; 99% of Muslamicisticals are normal, average people living their lives, working to make ends meet and trying to make a better world for their kids. Same's true of 99% of Christianators or Atheisticalisolors.

1%, probably less, are armed, violent fundamentalists who perpetuate their agenda of- or through religion to the detriment of the 99%.

Ayatollah Khomeini, George Bush Jr, erm, erm, heavily armed atheists... can't think of one. Depending on which side of the artificial "divide" you're on you'll see Khomeini differently from Bush in differing ways.

The majority of people live their lives and don't try to force their choices on others, the difficulty comes when other parts of society want to label and box everyone in the most dramatic categories. It really isn't like that.

 

[KSaiyu]

So I'm told and have been told ever since I was in a playground on Sept 11th 2001 playing football when my friends started cheering that "we" had hit America.. Or the fight I was almost in after defending some drunk girl against some spoilt brat arab who insisted he was above females.. Right up to a few weeks ago getting the train back from work and having someone ask to use my phone to call his solicitor, who promptly chanted "Islam rules the world" before threatening to come after me after I offered to send a text instead of handing over my phone.

You say "trying to make a better world for their kids" as I see more and more handicapped kids in the hospitals - a direct result of the outdated customs such a dangerous culture still promulgates.

My Palestinian football shirt is still proudly in my wardrobe, but there is a divide and it will only get bigger. Ignoring or appeasing it does no-one any favours.