The war on ISIS.

[TenEightyOne]

@KSaiyu, you met a "nutter". You noticed him through his behaviour, how many times did you ride that train with Muslims, Christians, Bieber fans, all kinds of people who are hated by other people. You just never knew.

I'd say that Christian governments have disabled and killed plenty of kids too, that's one of the things that wars do. Fight against war, hatred and extremism, not the labels that these people hid behind.

When they hide behind labels it's the same as militants who set up fireposts in children's homes as a "shield".

 

[Carlos]

Here's the thing; 99% of Muslamicisticals are normal, average people living their lives, working to make ends meet and trying to make a better world for their kids. Same's true of 99% of Christianators or Atheisticalisolors.

1%, probably less, are armed, violent fundamentalists who perpetuate their agenda of- or through religion to the detriment of the 99%.

Ayatollah Khomeini, George Bush Jr, erm, erm, heavily armed atheists... can't think of one. Depending on which side of the artificial "divide" you're on you'll see Khomeini differently from Bush in differing ways.

The majority of people live their lives and don't try to force their choices on others, the difficulty comes when other parts of society want to label and box everyone in the most dramatic categories. It really isn't like that.

But what when those parts of society are actually pretty aggressive, giving the normal Muslim the feeling they have to choose or else...

Other countries putting pressure on those societies isn't helping either, it probably results in societies falling apart. For the normal man it would feel everyone is his enemy, since neither options will help him get a better future.

So I'm told and have been told ever since I was in a playground on Sept 11th 2001 playing football when my friends started cheering that "we" had hit America.. Or the fight I was almost in after defending some drunk girl against some spoilt brat arab who insisted he was above females.. Right up to a few weeks ago getting the train back from work and having someone ask to use my phone to call his solicitor, who promptly chanted "Islam rules the world" before threatening to come after me after I offered to send a text instead of handing over my phone.

You say "trying to make a better world for their kids" as I see more and more handicapped kids in the hospitals - a direct result of the outdated customs such a dangerous culture still promulgates.

My Palestinian football shirt is still proudly in my wardrobe, but there is a divide and it will only get bigger. Ignoring or appeasing it does no-one any favours.

Him telling you Islam rules the world is pretty awkward. I wouldn't know how to react but probably get a bit mad. Though that's just 'ignorant', we have a lot of those people walking around. Like all those people who say Islam is just a bad thing. We should have patience and try to educate them in stead of forcing our western way of thinking into their world. You can tell them as much as you want how it should be done, but if they can't come to that discovery themselves, how could they defend such a lifestyle?

I have a Muslim as best friend, know him around 8 years now. He doesn't like to talk about what happens in the East, he is ashamed of those people that hide behind a religion. When I ask him how a Muslim must live, he just tells me it's for each to decide. Just be good for yourself and the ones you love. And that's how everybody wants to live, but we don't want to listen..

 

[KSaiyu]

Him telling you Islam rules the world is pretty awkward. I wouldn't know how to react but probably get a bit mad. Though that's just 'ignorant', we have a lot of those people walking around. Like all those people who say Islam is just a bad thing. We should have patience and try to educate them in stead of forcing our western way of thinking into their world. You can tell them as much as you want how it should be done, but if they can't come to that discovery themselves, how could they defend such a lifestyle?

I live in a part of London which has seen a massive surge in Somali immigrants, who are majority muslim. He was chanting this with other muslims on the train. Fact is, as teneighty said he is the "nutter", but if it came to a fight I'd be outnumbered 10 to 1 in an instant. If I walk down the street wearing my Palestinian shirt I would be instantly accepted; wear an Israeli shirt and I'm running not walking.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I live in a part of London which has seen a massive surge in Somali immigrants, who are majority muslim. He was chanting this with other muslims on the train. Fact is, as teneighty said he is the "nutter", but if it came to a fight I'd be outnumbered 10 to 1 in an instant. If I walk down the street wearing my Palestinian shirt I would be instantly accepted; wear an Israeli shirt and I'm running not walking.

So wear a crop-top, lipstick and high heels.

Suddenly you need to be scared of the white working-class British.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's how it actually is. And it's very very wrong.

 

[Carlos]

I live in a part of London which has seen a massive surge in Somali immigrants, who are majority muslim. He was chanting this with other muslims on the train. Fact is, as teneighty said he is the "nutter", but if it came to a fight I'd be outnumbered 10 to 1 in an instant. If I walk down the street wearing my Palestinian shirt I would be instantly accepted; wear an Israeli shirt and I'm running not walking.

I would be intimidated, but it's actually not very different than Jehovah witnesses do. It's only a bit more aggressive, and efficient.

What boggles my mind now is what would happen if you, singled out, would chant: atheism for the win!

 

[TenEightyOne]

What boggles my mind now is what would happen if you, singled out, would chant: atheism for the win!

I'm tempted to think it might not change the outcome very much....

 

[Rage Racer]

If I walk down the street wearing my Palestinian shirt I would be instantly accepted; wear an Israeli shirt and I'm running not walking.

And you accept this? Police doesn't care?
****, I wouldn't bear this in my country. Tajiks (Uzbeks/Kyrgyzes/whoever) get ass-kicked by law enforcers here immediately for any offenses like this. The FMS still works well, so immigrants don't get so cocky here.

 

[KSaiyu]

Police do care but they aren't omnipresent.

 

[TenEightyOne]

And you accept this? Police doesn't care?
****, I wouldn't bear this in my country. Tajiks (Uzbeks/Kyrgyzes/whoever) get ass-kicked by law enforcers here immediately for any offenses like this. The FMS still works well, so immigrants don't get so cocky here.

In the United Kingdom (I'm British, not a Subject, so I don't recognise the UK...) crime is comparatively low, particularly "hate" crime.

Clearly we can manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops.


*If you're a politician with an eye on the budget, that is

 

[samurai8juice]

In the United Kingdom (I'm British, not a Subject, so I don't recognise the UK...) crime is comparatively low, particularly "hate" crime.

Clearly we can manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops.


*If you're a politician with an eye on the budget, that is

In the last week, there has been a shooting every day in the United States. But today, it was changed up a bit, it was a failed shooting plot. For the United States being such a modernized country, as advanced as we are supposed to be. we shouldn't be experiencing problems with the mentally ill getting a high powered weapon and shooting places up.

My opinion on Islam is, this is just what the US would want. We went over there because the resource of oil, and to stop the growing Islamic threat on the Western world. The muslims weren't evil, but, important Middle Eastern Leaders like Osama who hated Western culture, could rally the people of the Middle East behind him, and be a threat to the US. So we broke the movement up. We didn't need to win the war to truly win. Now, Islamists are starting to take over Iraq, and a civil war could really help the US here. The threat would be partially gone for a while. I didn't support the United States in going over there, but hey, that just goes to show people in power will do whatever they can to keep it.

 

[KSaiyu]

So wear a crop-top, lipstick and high heels.

Suddenly you need to be scared of the white working-class British.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's how it actually is. And it's very very wrong.

Actually just coming back to this. If it's not right, how do you make it right? This isn't exclusive of the Somali immigrants in my area (in fact my friends celebrating 9/11 were Pakistani muslims, and it was in a Catholic school). It's not enough to say leave it to "moderate" muslims as the Muslim Council of Britain is a mess of dubious characters and influential, more PC imams have no qualms about stoning women in the middle east.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Is not the concept itself, is the triviality that it conveys because there is already immigration control.

So changing the degree of immigration control, or even just suggesting it, is racist?

Terrorism is not gonna be fixed by isolation, there are already restrictions of travel or transit if you go from country "X" to country "Y", and even if you did that you cannot control people who are originated or were born in say country (an example would be a Muslim person born in the USA, it can be indoctrinated into committing terrorists acts (if it's an extremists of course) which makes the whole concept useless).

I never said stricter immigration control would fix terrorism, but it most certainly won't make it worse unless you're singling out certain groups on purpose. But if you were to just allow in immigrants who can contribute to society and the economy, that speak good English and have useful skill set/qualifications, and put in place some sort of cap so that you didn't get any issues with unemployment, that wouldn't discriminate against anyone (sort of).

You can't control off communications between country A and country B because you are essentially breaking the basic principals of freedom of speech, you cannot control the transit between people from country A to country B because you would be restricting their freedom of travel. You simply cannot block an idea from trespassing, if Al Qaeda or whatever decided to carry out terrorists attacks tomorrow it would happen no matter what, because you can't simply have complete control over an idea, they could use nationals and still would be possible.

Who said anything about cutting off communications? As for controlling transit of people from one country to another, people have as much of a right to freedom of travel as I have the right to just walk into someone else's home. They only have the right to enter if the country allows it, saying anyone can go anywhere if they want to is nonsense.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Actually just coming back to this. If it's not right, how do you make it right? This isn't exclusive of the Somali immigrants in my area (in fact my friends celebrating 9/11 were Pakistani muslims, and it was in a Catholic school). It's not enough to say leave it to "moderate" muslims as the Muslim Council of Britain is a mess of dubious characters and influential, more PC imams have no qualms about stoning women in the middle east.

You're asking really for the solution to World Peace, right? Easy, you just, erm, well you er, just er, y'know, sort it out, really, I suppose. Honestly, I really don't know.

I'd hesitate to agree that the Muslim Council of Britain is "a mess of dubious characters" but I'll admit that's only because the few of their speakers that I've heard/met have seemed very wise, moderate, peaceful people who themselves are fully aware of the difficulties and fully prepared to see where due blame lies in any given case and who want to actively work to make improvements to the British community.

That's not to say there aren't people with more extreme (or even extremist) agenda, we're seeing that a very small minority of school Governors have caused a lot of problems for otherwise very healthy schools and their students/staff. One rotten apple and all that.

The fix... I don't know, I'm hoping to retire to somewhere with no other people there at all, although I'll still have fibre broadband and home delivery. That's the fix for me

 

[KSaiyu]

I'd hesitate to agree that the Muslim Council of Britain is "a mess of dubious characters" but I'll admit that's only because the few of their speakers that I've heard/met have seemed very wise, moderate, peaceful people who themselves are fully aware of the difficulties and fully prepared to see where due blame lies in any given case and who want to actively work to make improvements to the British community

Would you like to read their press release on the Birmingham schools row before disagreeing? It's on their front page

 

[Mark T]

I'm amazed that such a small force was able to take such a large amount of territory with what seems to be no resistance. It's time that the "peaceful" neighbouring Islamic states intervened and put in some of their money and military hardware to put down these factions once and for all.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Would you like to read their press release on the Birmingham schools row before disagreeing? It's on their front page

I already have, are you saying there's something bad in there? It concludes positively and moderately and doesn't say anything that's untrue. I'm not sure what else the council might have said?

I'm not denying that some of OfStEd's findings in the Birmingham "school" (remember this is a consortium of 5 linked, co-governed Academies over a network of 15-or-so affiliated Primaries) weren't deeply, deeply concerning because they were, but it seems like a problem within that particular "small" network of schools. Not small really, but small on a national scale.

It doesn't take many corrupt governors to sink that kind of ship, in this case the main issue is with utterly inappropriate lesson, study and assembly content being provided to pupils. That's got to be the most serious issue, student welfare.

Then we hear that the consortium's governors have used bullying and other unfair means to replace existing staff with staff who, presumably fit the radical model of Isla'am that some of the governors believe in.

I believe OfStEd are impartial, I've had a fair bit of experience with them and while their visits can be unpleasant and stressful I've never ever found them to be unfair or ill-considered. If they say this is what they've found, it's what they've found.

Unless you're saying that MBC are somehow involved in this "plot" I'm not sure what you're saying about them, as I already said; I don't see how else you might have expected them to respond. It's balanced and makes fair points that could be true in any case if you replaced the references to Isla'am with, say, Pastafarianism, or Beliebing.

EDIT: Cack, just realised how far off-topic we are Sorry mods. Again. :\

 

[DK]

I'm amazed that such a small force was able to take such a large amount of territory with what seems to be no resistance. It's time that the "peaceful" neighbouring Islamic states intervened and put in some of their money and military hardware to put down these factions once and for all.

I wouldn't be surprised if a certain neighbouring state which banned women from driving was already intervening...albeit on ISIS's side.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I wouldn't be surprised if a certain neighbouring state which banned women from driving was already intervening...albeit on ISIS's side.

Shhhhhhh!

I wouldn't be surprised either. Makes you wonder about the other Gulf Wars, doesn't it, what conversations Sa'ad and the US might have had.

I'm sure they didn't have any of course. Ahem.

 

[Rage Racer]

Police do care but they aren't omnipresent.

In the United Kingdom (I'm British, not a Subject, so I don't recognise the UK...) crime is comparatively low, particularly "hate" crime.

Clearly we can manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops and we can clearly manage with fewer police officers* and so the numbers shrink and shrink. And so crime goes up, and eventually the police reduce their shrinkage, then crime drops.


*If you're a politician with an eye on the budget, that is

There's no need for cops to be omnipresent. They need to be, err... omniactive.
In my city, immigrants (well, most of them) wouldn't dare to trouble the locals like that. They feel kinda... suppressed. They know that any bad attention from police would immidiately kick them back to Tajikistan (or wherever they came from) or to Vorkuta (if something worse was done). Of course, they commit crimes sometimes, but police sorts them out of course - crimes must not be tolerated, no matter of the nationality/religion/etc.

Or, maybe, the difference is in the cause why immigrants come to your country.
Africans and Arabs come to Europe to live (at the state's expense (however, some of them actually work)) and, probably, impose their culture/behaviour/views on the locals.
Central Asians come to Russia to work and earn money, because of terrible unemployment in their home countries. And they usually go back after a while.

And there's also another factor - cocky immigrants may get ass-kicked not even by police, but by the locals. If a Muslim guy tells a Russian man something like "Islam rules the world, eh!", or disturbs his GF - it's a very likely chance to have the nose broken. Yes, we are not tolerant Europeans (c). But we don't make ourselves dependent on the immigrants' behaviour. @KSaiyu , you must not be afraid of wearing an Israeli shirt wherever you walk.

I'm amazed that such a small force was able to take such a large amount of territory with what seems to be no resistance. It's time that the "peaceful" neighbouring Islamic states intervened and put in some of their money and military hardware to put down these factions once and for all.

Yes, gotta get closer to the topic.
Looks like the regular Iraqi army with modern 'Murican equipment could not stand up against the militia because of ****ty discipline and commanding.

Hmm... an Abrams was penetrated in the turret front?

 

[KSaiyu]

I already have, are you saying there's something bad in there? It concludes positively and moderately and doesn't say anything that's untrue. I'm not sure what else the council might have said?

I'm not denying that some of OfStEd's findings in the Birmingham "school" (remember this is a consortium of 5 linked, co-governed Academies over a network of 15-or-so affiliated Primaries) weren't deeply, deeply concerning because they were, but it seems like a problem within that particular "small" network of schools. Not small really, but small on a national scale.

It doesn't take many corrupt governors to sink that kind of ship, in this case the main issue is with utterly inappropriate lesson, study and assembly content being provided to pupils. That's got to be the most serious issue, student welfare.

Then we hear that the consortium's governors have used bullying and other unfair means to replace existing staff with staff who, presumably fit the radical model of Isla'am that some of the governors believe in.

I believe OfStEd are impartial, I've had a fair bit of experience with them and while their visits can be unpleasant and stressful I've never ever found them to be unfair or ill-considered. If they say this is what they've found, it's what they've found.

Unless you're saying that MBC are somehow involved in this "plot" I'm not sure what you're saying about them, as I already said; I don't see how else you might have expected them to respond. It's balanced and makes fair points that could be true in any case if you replaced the references to Isla'am with, say, Pastafarianism, or Beliebing.

EDIT: Cack, just realised how far off-topic we are Sorry mods. Again. :\

It's blatant victim complex rhetoric. The same type of garbage I've been hearing since high school.

 

[TenEightyOne]

There's no need for cops to be omnipresent. They need to be, err... omniactiv
e.
In my city, immigrants (well, most of them) wouldn't dare to trouble the locals like that. They feel kinda... suppressed. They know that any bad attention from police would immidiately kick them back to Tajikistan (of wherever they came from) or to Vorkuta (if something worse was done). Of course, they commit crimes sometimes, but police sorts them out of course - crimes must not be tolerated, no matter of the nationality/religion/etc.

Or, maybe, the difference is in the cause why immigrants come to your country.
Africans and Arabs come to Europe to live (at the state's expense (however, some of them actually work)) and, probably, impose their culture/behaviour/views on the locals.
Central Asians come to Russia to work and earn money, because of terrible unemployment in their home countries. And they usually go back after a while.

I wouldn't want immigrants to Britain to feel supressed or somehow "marked out", it sounds like you have the other extreme there. I Googled Vorkuta, I enjoyed that bit . As you say (in so many words) crime should be treated independently of immigration status.

In Britain there aren't enough police-on-the-streets to manage many things, that has little to do with immigration but one finds that immigration is still a focal point. "Why can't the police cope?", "Because of immigrant crime!". No, if there was no immigrant crime at all logically then there'd be less crime and, as per my previous example, the policing bar would be lowered even further. The policing problem would remain.

I support migration because I think it's better for cultures to mix than it is for them to separate. That's two-way of course, if I moved to another country I'd feel obliged to learn the language, observe local customs and laws and to integrate myself into the society.

That said, I'd still require a regular two-bag-brew-and-banjo*, I doubt that's available in some places so inevitably I and my compatriots might open our own brew-stop, why not? Maybe you too will become addicted, it's impossible not to for any normal decent human being**. Society is about people living together, I'd be less friendly if I was faced with automatic hostility, and so the hostility would grow, and we'd be in another cycle.

I'm concerned when you say Africans and Arabs come to Europe to live at the state's expense and "probably" impose their culture on the locals. By that token all Russians siphon fuel for drink, steal denim from tourists and make their money selling stolen windscreen wipers. That would be at best a silly thing to say and at worst a racist thing to say. Especially if I went on to say that Central Asians are okay because they work.

@KSaiyu read it again, it makes no statements that aren't true, it asks no questions that aren't fair and it supports sensible teaching of Isla'am without excluding other Faith or secularism. I think you're seeing what you expected to see.



* Proper Northern English tea that slaps you awake accompanied by a bacon breadcake... (and now you might be about to see provincial English racism in action )
** Joke

 

[Dotini]

I'm amazed that such a small force was able to take such a large amount of territory with what seems to be no resistance. It's time that the "peaceful" neighbouring Islamic states intervened and put in some of their money and military hardware to put down these factions once and for all.

ISIS is well financed, ably led, and highly motivated. Their fighters come from Syria, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and Europe as well as from within Iraq itself. They have demonstrated crushing military prowess over the poorly led Iraqi government forces.

The area in which they are so far established and expanding in Syria and Iraq is largely Sunni. So, being Sunni, they receive grass roots support. In areas they have conquered, they are often able to retain existing infrastructure service employees, and maintain or even improve electricity delivery to the population.

In Mosul, they seem to have avoided provoking nearby Kurdish populations. They tend to impose strict Sharia law on the conquered, but not always. For instance, in Fallujah they seem to allow certain vices. They have a certain shifty pragmatism to go along with their religious zeal and fundamentalism.

The bulk of the Muslim world is Sunni, so its unlikely any neighboring states except Iran will oppose them.

If they are not stopped, they may well besiege Baghdad, trapping millions of Shia without water or electricity.

After that comes the southern oilfields, 3 million barrels a day of oil which OPEC cannot make up. Expect a serious price shock and a corresponding drop in global GDP.

It almost goes without saying that the Shia-dominated government of Iraq is finished and will never come again. Iraq may formally split in Kurdish, Sunni and Shia areas. But first comes blood and fire.

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu read it again, it makes no statements that aren't true, it asks no questions that aren't fair and it supports sensible teaching of Isla'am without excluding other Faith or secularism. I think you're seeing what you expected to see.

The omissions speak louder than the questions

 

[Furinkazen]

Forgive me for asking, but how is european immigration control in anyway related to a militaristic group of fighters wanting to turn Iraq into an Islamic state?

 

[Dotini]

Forgive me for asking, but how is european immigration control in anyway related to a militaristic group of fighters wanting to turn Iraq into an Islamic state?

There are several hundred German, French, British and other euros fighting with ISIS. Should they survive, they will come home bearing their passports, and bring a bunch of their new Islamic fundamentalist fighter friends with them. Then you go "BOOM".

 

[Spurgy 777]

Forgive me for asking, but how is european immigration control in anyway related to a militaristic group of fighters wanting to turn Iraq into an Islamic state?

Like this apparently;

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761208
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761245
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761258
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761273
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761300
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/#post-9761324
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/page-2#post-9761346
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/page-2#post-9761385
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/page-2#post-9762135
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/page-2#post-9762799
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/islamists-taking-over-iraq.311220/page-3#post-9763578

 

[Rage Racer]

I wouldn't want immigrants to Britain to feel supressed or somehow "marked out", it sounds like you have the other extreme there. I Googled Vorkuta, I enjoyed that bit . As you say (in so many words) crime should be treated independently of immigration status.

In Britain there aren't enough police-on-the-streets to manage many things, that has little to do with immigration but one finds that immigration is still a focal point. "Why can't the police cope?", "Because of immigrant crime!". No, if there was no immigrant crime at all logically then there'd be less crime and, as per my previous example, the policing bar would be lowered even further. The policing problem would remain.

I support migration because I think it's better for cultures to mix than it is for them to separate. That's two-way of course, if I moved to another country I'd feel obliged to learn the language, observe local customs and laws and to integrate myself into the society.

That said, I'd still require a regular two-bag-brew-and-banjo*, I doubt that's available in some places so inevitably I and my compatriots might open our own brew-stop, why not? Maybe you too will become addicted, it's impossible not to for any normal decent human being**. Society is about people living together, I'd be less friendly if I was faced with automatic hostility, and so the hostility would grow, and we'd be in another cycle.

I'm not talking about automatic hostility. If legal immigrants make legal business (and employ people to work), this is just fine. But I oppose any agressive behaviour. (Like the situation with KSaiyu's shirt. ) I respect your rights as long as mine aren't violated.
Now, let's switch to the war conflict in Iraq as @Furinkazen suggests.

Like this apparently;

Muslims and Islamists are differnt terms, remember.

 

[Spurgy 777]

Muslims and Islamists are differnt terms, remember.

Yes, I know, I was talking about immigrants generally, and I think both Muslims and Islamists can be immigrants.

 

[Furinkazen]

Yes, I know, I was talking about immigrants generally, and I think both Muslims and Islamists can be immigrants.

Except when in there own home.country...?

 

[Spurgy 777]

Except when in there own home.country...?

Obviously? I don't think anyone can be a immigrant when they're in their own country Furi