The war on ISIS.

[Obelisk]

That's not how dropping one works

Well, he must've forgotten to flush.

 

[Dotini]

Is anyone going to mention the M.O.A.B.?

Because Trump dropped one.

According to his response to a reporter's question, Trump may not have authorized the MOAB attack. Rather it may have been a military decision operating under prior blanket authority from the president.

If true, then suspicions are raised about how far he has reversed or farmed out a number of foreign policy/military decisions since he has cut his anchor line (Bannon) to his antiwar populist/nationalist base.

In other words, even the Korean thing may be on military autopilot to a degree, with the inexperienced president out of his depth and out of the loop.

 

[BobK]

I fail to see why direct Presidential authorization is required for using what amounts to a conventional munition.

 

[Dotini]

I fail to see why direct Presidential authorization is required for using what amounts to a conventional munition.

True. But! The largest conventional bomb ever devised on Earth was dropped and heavily publicized by the military and media, likely a propaganda ploy to intimidate North Korea. It's thinkable that an involved and in-control Commander-in-Chief would be on top of all that.

World
US Air Force sends message to North Korea with display of air power
Fox News Thu, Apr 13 1:00 AM PDT

U.S. Air Force officials made it clear to North Korea they were not messing around, launching a surprise military exercise with full combat air power in Japan Wednesday. The jets in the arsenal of the 18th Wing, which conducted the exercise, include HH-60 Pave Hawks, F-15 Eagles, E-3 Sentries and KC-135 Stratotankers. Military officials call it the Air Force's largest combat-ready wing. Photos showed a large group of the jets on a runway at Kadena Air Base in Japan.

 

[Dennisch]

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to send non stealth airplanes towards a nation that probably holds decent enough anti aircraft weapons?

Or are the stealth planes already stationed close enough to take all that defense out?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

True. But! The largest conventional bomb ever devised on Earth was dropped and heavily publicized by the military and media, likely a propaganda ploy to intimidate North Korea. It's thinkable that an involved and in-control Commander-in-Chief would be on top of all that.

World
US Air Force sends message to North Korea with display of air power
Fox News Thu, Apr 13 1:00 AM PDT

U.S. Air Force officials made it clear to North Korea they were not messing around, launching a surprise military exercise with full combat air power in Japan Wednesday. The jets in the arsenal of the 18th Wing, which conducted the exercise, include HH-60 Pave Hawks, F-15 Eagles, E-3 Sentries and KC-135 Stratotankers. Military officials call it the Air Force's largest combat-ready wing. Photos showed a large group of the jets on a runway at Kadena Air Base in Japan.

That's not even our Final form

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Here is drone footage of the MOAB. You'd think they'd have better cameras. I want to see it in HD color.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Here is drone footage of the MOAB. You'd think they'd have better cameras. I want to see it in HD color.

Definitely. At $16m per delivery (with a $60m replacement cost) I'd have wanted a go-pro streaming from the main body's nose.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to send non stealth airplanes towards a nation that probably holds decent enough anti aircraft weapons?

Or are the stealth planes already stationed close enough to take all that defense out?

This, and Helicopters fly below such radars in the first place, that large aircraft in the background is an awaccs with jamming/anti-jamming capabilities. And the most modern 4.5 gen F-15 has sophisticated electronics on par with those in a stealth fighter. And if the silent eagle ever gets green lit then the F-15 will be even more deadly and on par with a stealth fighter.

In other words N. Korea probably isn't fully equipped to face such weapons.

Here is drone footage of the MOAB. You'd think they'd have better cameras. I want to see it in HD color.

There you go @Dennisch

 

[Obelisk]

Here is drone footage of the MOAB. You'd think they'd have better cameras. I want to see it in HD color.

One of these could level several blocks in Boston. It's got a blast force of 11 tons of TNT.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

One of these could level several blocks in Boston. It's got a blast force of 11 tons of TNT.

If you can find it someone actually did an article about that but with Manhattan showing how much would be destroyed. It was published this week, not sure by who though.

 

[Obelisk]

If you can find it someone actually did an article about that but with Manhattan showing how much would be destroyed. It was published this week, not sure by who though.

It was Boston.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

It was Boston.

Or people did the same type of story with different cities. As I said the one that I found and saw first after the bombing was a what if on Manhattan. So no it wasn't only Boston.

As my prior post tried to illustrate.

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html?dll=40.71427,-74.00597&yd=100&zm=12&op=156

http://www.businessinsider.com/effect-of-moab-bomb-on-new-york-city-2017-4
http://tribunist.com/news/here-is-how-the-mother-of-all-bombs-actually-kills-people/

 

[Obelisk]

Or people did the same type of story with different cities. As I said the one that I found and saw first after the bombing was a what if on Manhattan. So no it wasn't only Boston.

As my prior post tried to illustrate.

http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html?dll=40.71427,-74.00597&yd=100&zm=12&op=156

http://www.businessinsider.com/effect-of-moab-bomb-on-new-york-city-2017-4
http://tribunist.com/news/here-is-how-the-mother-of-all-bombs-actually-kills-people/

My bad. My google searching didn't work.

 

[mustafur]

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to send non stealth airplanes towards a nation that probably holds decent enough anti aircraft weapons?

Or are the stealth planes already stationed close enough to take all that defense out?

Well considering North Korea was the first country to have Anti Aircraft shoot a US Stealth Plane(unsuccessfully but it was detected) I would say very much so.

 

[Famine]

Despite the outrage from more than a few places, it looks like the MOAB has, without any collateral damage (some unproven mutterings of houses being destroyed a few miles away), killed at least 90 Da'esh members and destroyed a 300 metre long tunnel/cave network.

So, right tool for the job then.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Despite the outrage from more than a few places, it looks like the MOAB has, without any collateral damage (some unproven mutterings of houses being destroyed a few miles away), killed at least 90 Da'esh members and destroyed a 300 metre long tunnel/cave network.

So, right tool for the job then.

According to Wikipedia, only 15 of these were built. I think it is time to order more. But they need to come up with a better delivery method. Kicking them out the back door of an un-stealthy C-130 cargo plane doesn't seem efficient.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I think it is time to order more.

They're expensive and they only have one practical use - destroying underground networks.

they need to come up with a better delivery method. Kicking them out the back door of an un-stealthy C-130 cargo plane doesn't seem efficient.

And what would that be? For one, they weigh 10,000 pounds. But more to the point, they destroy everything in a one-mile radius, so they don't really need a precision guidance system.

 

[polysmut]

For one, they weigh 10,000 pounds.

Double that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Right. I was thinking metric - it's just shy of 10,000 kilograms.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

And what would that be? For one, they weigh 10,000 pounds. But more to the point, they destroy everything in a one-mile radius, so they don't really need a precision guidance system.

I am not an engineer, but surely there is something better.

I'm thinking they would be great to soften up the artillery batteries in the 160 mile long unpopulated DMZ.

 

[Obelisk]

I am not an engineer, but surely there is something better.

I'm thinking they would be great to soften up the artillery batteries in the 160 mile long unpopulated DMZ.

The MOAB is an airburst weapon. It wouldn't be too good against open structures like that, unless I'm missing something.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm thinking they would be great to soften up the artillery batteries in the 160 mile long unpopulated DMZ.

Nope. The Massive Ordnance Air Burst is a thermobaric weapon. It's basically 20,000 pounds of fuel when most bombs use a fuel-air mixture. When a thermobaric weapon is detonated, it ignites the air around it, but to work properly, it needs the right concentration of air. If you just drop it in the open air, it won't be particularly effective because there will be too much air. Weapons like this are designed to penetrate underground networks - caves, tunnels, bunkers and the like - rather than just be dropped on a target.

 

[Imari]

In other words N. Korea probably isn't fully equipped to face such weapons.

Probably not. On the other hand, China and Russia are if they were to decide to throw their lot in with NK. Or even just accidentally leave a giant shipment of AA weapons under NK's doormat.

According to Wikipedia, only 15 of these were built. I think it is time to order more. But they need to come up with a better delivery method. Kicking them out the back door of an un-stealthy C-130 cargo plane doesn't seem efficient.

There's nothing stealthy that will carry a 10,000kg bomb. The B2 can technically lift the weight, but because of the way it's laid out the MOAB won't fit. It won't fit at all in the F117. The F22 and F35 are straight up fighters, they've got nowhere to put a 10t bomb. That's kind of it.

A C130 or a B52 are probably the only really viable options.

Nope. The Massive Ordnance Air Burst is a thermobaric weapon. It's basically 20,000 pounds of fuel when most bombs use a fuel-air mixture. When a thermobaric weapon is detonated, it ignites the air around it, but to work properly, it needs the right concentration of air. If you just drop it in the open air, it won't be particularly effective because there will be too much air. Weapons like this are designed to penetrate underground networks - caves, tunnels, bunkers and the like - rather than just be dropped on a target.

All correct, with one slight adjustment. Most traditional explosives don't use a fuel/air mixture as such, they simply include their own oxidant premixed with the fuel. Air is only 20% oxidant, and even pure oxygen is difficult to store and highly reactive, and so unsuitable for packaging in a bomb or missile. Solid sources of oxygen or other oxidants are preferred.

A traditional explosive carries it's own oxidant, usually some chemical that will release oxygen on heating or reaction. This reacts with the fuel that is also carried to create the explosion. A true explosive will burn under water or in a vacuum, whereas a thermobaric weapon will not.

Some chemicals like ammonium chlorate can act as their own fuel and oxidant, which makes them highly sensitive and difficult to handle. Many modern high explosives are similar, and are packaged with desensitising agents so that they don't accidentally go off when someone sneezes too hard.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

The MOAB is an airburst weapon. It wouldn't be too good against open structures like that, unless I'm missing something.

The US military used similar but smaller bombs called daisy cutters in Vietnam to create clearings in the jungle to make helicopter landing zones. They explode above ground, so the blast wave moves horizontally from the blast. They do not create large craters.

Nope. The Massive Ordnance Air Burst is a thermobaric weapon. It's basically 20,000 pounds of fuel when most bombs use a fuel-air mixture. When a thermobaric weapon is detonated, it ignites the air around it, but to work properly, it needs the right concentration of air. If you just drop it in the open air, it won't be particularly effective because there will be too much air. Weapons like this are designed to penetrate underground networks - caves, tunnels, bunkers and the like - rather than just be dropped on a target.

Nope. The MOAB is not a fuel air thermobaric bomb. Perhaps you are thinking of the Russian FOAB.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Nope. The MOAB is not a fuel air thermobaric bomb. Perhaps you are thinking of the Russian FOAB.

It's still not going to be particularly effective in "softening up artillery batteries" because it's not designed to do that.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The US military used similar but smaller bombs called daisy cutters in Vietnam to create clearings in the jungle to make helicopter landing zones. They explode above ground, so the blast wave moves horizontally from the blast. They do not create large craters.

BLU82 "daisy cutters" were also used in Afghanistan, primarily against artillery and structures (their use was mixed between that and LZ clearance in Vietnam, as you partly note).

 

[Scaff]

The MOAB is an airburst weapon. It wouldn't be too good against open structures like that, unless I'm missing something.

Your missing the scale of the thing. It's explosive force is around 2/3 that of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

It's going to do plenty of damage to structures, as it's an airburst but not at a higher altitude.

 

[Obelisk]

Your missing the scale of the thing. It's explosive force is around 2/3 that of the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

It's going to do plenty of damage to structures, as it's an airburst but not at a higher altitude.

11 tons of TNT is not equal to 20 kilotons.

Not sure if that's the right number for the MOAB.

 

[Dotini]

Syria sarin attack was staged, sys MIT boffin.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/mit-expert-claims-latest-chemical-100819428.html

His analysis of the shell suggests that it could not have been dropped from an airplane as the damage of the casing is inconsistent from an aerial explosion. Instead, Postol said it was more likely that an explosive charge was laid upon the shell containing sarin, before being detonated.

View photos
Khan Sheikhoun crater
"The explosive acted on the pipe as a blunt crushing mallet," Postol said. "It drove the pipe into the ground while at the same time creating the crater.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The implication of Postol's analysis is that it was carried out by anti-government insurgents as Khan Sheikhoun is in militant-controlled territory of Syria.

Postol, formerly a scientific advisor at the Department of Defense (DoD), has previously outlined similar inconsistencies with US intelligence reports. Following the 2013 chemical weapons attack in eastern Ghouta, Postol again said the evidence did not suggest Assad was responsible – a finding that was later corroborated by the United Nations.

In his latest reports, Postol hit out at what he says is a "politicisation" of intelligence findings.

Postol said: "No competent analyst would miss the fact that the alleged sarin canister was forcefully crushed from above, rather than exploded by a munition within it.

"All of these highly amateurish mistakes indicate that this White House report, like the earlier Obama White House Report [from Ghouta in 2013], was not properly vetted by the intelligence community as claimed.

"I have worked with the intelligence community in the past, and I have grave concerns about the politicisation of intelligence that seems to be occurring with more frequency in recent times – but I know that the intelligence community has highly capable analysts in it.

"And if those analysts were properly consulted about the claims in the White House document they would have not approved the document going forward."