The Where's the Outrage Thread

[PeterJB]

I'm genuinely curious to know of one. Find me a white person killed by cops while already subdued and restrained who had committed no crime other than possibly spending a counterfeit bill, something which almost all of us have unknowingly done at some point.

And that's where the argument lies, isn't it? There is certainly enough history of cops mistreated black folks in this country, that you can't completely dismiss it. People are going to see what they want to see from it. I personally am not aware of any white folks dying in a set of circumstances like George Floyd. If you can provide a couple, I'd certainly have to reconsider my viewpoint. You're far from the first person to declare "same thing happens to white people all the time, so it's not racism." You would, however, be the first to actually provide an example that doesn't play really loose with how "similar" the circumstances are.

As @Joey D mentioned there is Tony Timpah, and also Timothy Coffman. He didn't die at the scene but he had drugs in his system and died from his injuries:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/lawyer-officers-knee-neck-killed-man-2018-arrest-71347397

If you leave out the racial element, and you've already acknowledged that it hasn't yet been at all established, then all you have is juste one murder among the dozens that happen every day, and get no attention at all. Which actually means this case is getting more attention than expected. Why don't you find the silence over the other murders that same day "deafening?"

This is pretty unique as homicides go. The vast majority are adults killing other adults. Of the relatively few cases of children being killed each year, even fewer are done so intentionally and so maliciously.

Do you have this data?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585159/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-month/

A bit cursory in my research at half 11 on a Saturday, but African-Americans are over-represented in police shootings relative to the general population, but are under-represented relative to rates of violent crime within ethnic groups (that's not me saying more black criminals need to be killed by cops). That's important because, other than a few notable exceptions, cops will basically leave you alone if you are not suspected of committing a crime. The raw numbers of African-Americans killed each year by cops amounts to less than one a day, if you want to get pedantic about the BLM claim of daily shootings. But of those, the vast majority are armed themselves, or otherwise behaving in a hostile manner towards the cops. When you have both armed cops and armed citizens, that's usually gonna be their go-to method of self-defence since both end up being scared of each other.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Belarus.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Belarus.

Thailand.

 

[McLaren]

As I said in the other thread, most of the people complaining about the lack of protests would likely start criticizing said protests the second they started.

That crossed my mind, too. Protesters were attacked for gathering during this pandemic, even being mocked ("Just telling them you're protesting, so you can gather freely lulz lulz lulz"), why would they do it again for something else?

However, I don't think they'd be criticized. I think the right would throw some hypocrisy on display & stand behind protesting b/c it's for their cause now.

 

[DG_Silva]

Under the circumstances I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of statement from BBC News clarifying their decision not to run with this particular story on their website but suspect their justification is that senseless though it was, it's not part of a trend as I said in my first post above.

If it hasn't already been mentioned - I'm too tired to read every post here - you can email BBC Newswatch at newswatch@bbc.co.uk or twitter.com/newswatchbbc

 

[UKMikey]

If it hasn't already been mentioned - I'm too tired to read every post here - you can email BBC Newswatch at newswatch@bbc.co.uk or twitter.com/newswatchbbc

I did try googling the Twitter link to see whether anyone had already asked them but all I got back were a bunch of #scamdemic tagged nutjobs who have already decided the reason the story hasn't been featured for themselves. I don't want to tweet them in case I'm mistaken for one of those.

 

[DesertPenguin]

I appreciate y'alls input.

Thread name change when?

 

[VolkswagenX]

Thread title seems fine to me..

 

[Northstar]

That crossed my mind, too. Protesters were attacked for gathering during this pandemic, even being mocked ("Just telling them you're protesting, so you can gather freely lulz lulz lulz"), why would they do it again for something else?

However, I don't think they'd be criticized. I think the right would throw some hypocrisy on display & stand behind protesting b/c it's for their cause now.

I was thinking more along the lines of criticizing them because "They Gonna Take Mah Gunz!1!!". After all if Sandy Hook wasn't enough to get them to support gun law reform I doubt a lone 5 year old will.

Thread name change when?

Dude, lay off him already because at this point you're just coming off as a condescending jackass.

 

[DesertPenguin]

I was thinking more along the lines of criticizing them because "They Gonna Take Mah Gunz!1!!". After all if Sandy Hook wasn't enough to get them to support gun law reform I doubt a lone 5 year old will.



Dude, lay off him already because at this point you're just coming off as a condescending jackass.

He agreed the thread title was wrong and asked for suggestions. We gave them and he said our input was taken into consideration. If there was no intention to change it anyway then why entertain us that far?

 

[NotThePrez]

He agreed the thread title was wrong and asked for suggestions. We gave them and he said our input was taken into consideration. If there was no intention to change it anyway then why entertain us that far?

While I do think that this thread title isn't 100% accurate and needs to be changed, the way you're going about it isn't effective either, simply because it seems like you're always trying to create a battle, rather than a discussion. Tap the brakes a bit.

 

[Northstar]

He agreed the thread title was wrong and asked for suggestions. We gave them and he said our input was taken into consideration.

He said he was open to recommendations, he said nothing about being wrong. Personally I think it's fine, while in this particular case I think the amount of response has been appropriate there certainly is a discussion to be had about why some events get more of a reaction than others.

Edit: Here is a horrifically convenient example. An 8 year old girl was killed by her dad and step-mom and authorities apparently knew about the family and did nothing.

https://kstp.com/news/autumn-hallow-elk-river-homicide-august-15-2020/5828252/?cat=1

This seems worthy of outrage by lots of people as CPS has a history of failing to do their job.

 

[eran0004]

As I said in the other thread, most of the people complaining about the lack of protests would likely start criticizing said protests the second they started.

Just the fact that they complain about the lack of protests rather than at something directly related to killing probably means that there is nothing to really protest about (except for possibly stricter gun laws). Seems more like a case of trying to find things to criticise BLM for rather than genuinely caring about the murder of a child.

 

[ryzno]

I'm surprised it took this long for your new thread to be made.

Thread name change when?

Listen man, I've at least tried to help but I've received nothing but resistance and complaints.
I'm done doing what sir wants and I'm under no obligation to do anything in any time frame, especially on your watch.
You know damn good and well I was agitated when I created this thread. I was genuinely thinking about changing the name then I wake up to this.
I'm not your 🤬 puppet.

 

[TheGeologist]

Alright alright, let's all chill everyone.

@ryzno, you want to know why there is little outrage, correct?

Of course people are upset about this. It is a disgusting reminder that the US has a very large violence problem. But, this isn't a part of an ongoing trend. Thankfully, there are not multiple reports of kids getting executed by black men.

People are outraged by numerous reports of black people dying in police custody. It's been a trend. Some of the black people killed by police as a part if this trend may not have been good people. They not have been nice people. But their crimes never should have resulted in the death penalty. The force used is incredibly excessive and generally seems to trend at people of color. That's why people are upset. That's what BLM is all about.

Trust me, if there was a trend of specific groups executing kids, there would absolutely be a movement against it. And I would side with it, just like I sided with BLM.

Thankfully, that isn't the case.

 

[VBR]

There have been several incidents of white suspects being killed by cops in similar circumstances to George Floyd in recent years (some of which were by black cops), none of which have provoked the reaction that George Floyd's did, despite the same abuses of power committed by the cops in question.

I'm genuinely curious to know of one. Find me a white person killed by cops while already subdued and restrained who had committed no crime other than possibly spending a counterfeit bill, something which almost all of us have unknowingly done at some point.

@huskeR32 - If you really are 'genuinely' curious, here are three examples...


Daniel Shaver - was told to put his hands up and crawl towards the officer. He couldn't do this, putting his hands down to crawl instead, but was not chastised for it. Then he was shot five times because the cop thought he was reaching for a gun. Turns out he was unarmed. His only crime was not following the cop's instructions to the letter, some of which were contradictory, & instinctively reaching round to adjust his pants/belt, etc. The cop was charged but found not guilty. The footage is incredibly disturbing, as you actually see him getting shot. You have been warned.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW - EXTREMELY Graphic Footage

Tony Timpa - his only crime was calling the police for help when he came off his meds, took some drugs, & was freaking out. He was mentally ill & needed help, instead, he got kneeled on for 13 minutes, injected, & died as a result. Two officers were 'disciplined' over the killing, & the other three simply returned to work.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW - Graphic Footage

Justine Ruszczyk - called the police, & was shot by officer Mohamed Noor. Her only crime was "spooking" them when coming to greet them. The cop went down for third-degree murder & second-degree manslaughter.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW

I think the American police are 'equal opportunity' brutalizers. IMO, it only seems that they kill more of a certain demographic because of how the media spins it.

Spoiler: Serious meme, not funny at all...

 

[DesertPenguin]

Listen man, I've at least tried to help but I've received nothing but resistance and complaints.
I'm done doing what sir wants and I'm under no obligation to do anything in any time frame, especially on your watch.
You know damn good and well I was agitated when I created this thread. I was genuinely thinking about changing the name then I wake up to this.
I'm not your 🤬 puppet.

I'm not the only one that asked this if you. I'm just the only one who cares a large amount to be persistent.

 

[TexRex]

I think the Tony Timpa case fits here. He wasn't even committing a crime, but rather scared because of being mentally unstable and was asking for help. The cops more or less suffocated him. While it's not exactly the same as Floyd's murder, there is the common factor that the police used excessive force that ended with a suspect (or in Timpas case, an innocent person) dead.

Yeah, Tony Timpa's murder is broadly similar to that of George Floyd's. Both were subjected to prone restraint supplemented with a knee placed on the body which prevented movement from the position that has been widely condemned by law enforcement agencies due to the potential for death, though Tony had a knee in his back between his arms while cuffed and George had a knee on his neck (the position is perilous enough that neither should be employed, but you'd think LEOs would exercise better judgement and avoid the neck).

George Floyd's murder was documented by a bystander and spread quickly through social media.

The only video record of Tony Timpa's murder comes from the use of cameras on the involved officers' persons. Video record wasn't released until three years after the incident, after lengthy legal battles on behalf of Timpa's family, with Dallas PD fighting to keep it from being seen.

Vicki Timpa, Tony's mother, alleges she received multiple conflicting accounts of his death.

One was that of Tony being discovered on the ground next to his vehicle, unconscious, and expired while receiving attention.

Another was that he collapsed while waving at responding officers from the back of an ambulance.

The video record documents an incident involving mechanical and considerable physical restraint by officers who laugh and mock him throughout. There's only a brief moment of reflection, just before the recording device is disengaged, in which one of the officers ponders aloud whether they'd just killed a man.

No wonder DPD fought so hard to prevent its release.

Of course the two incidents aren't differentiated by only the incidents themselves.

I'm pretty sure we all know George Floyd was "no angel." He had a history of substance abuse that we all know followed him right up to the moment he expired, because a knee to the neck for nearly nine minutes couldn't possibly have been the only factor in his death. It's also been made abundantly clear that he was charged, convicted and sentenced to prison for home invasion and armed robbery, though there's no actual evidence he ever held a pregnant woman at gunpoint, as alleged by those attempting to deflect from the circumstances of his death. George Floyd's past (and by that I mean his actual past, rather than **** people have made up and propagated through memes) is a matter of public record, but it isn't actually relevant to the circumstances of his death.

Tony Timpa was also "no angel." He also had an issue with substance abuse, with multiple stints in rehab as well as a DWI conviction following a motor vehicle collision in which, thankfully, no others were involved. Tony also suffered from mental illness. His past isn't relevant to the circumstances of his death either, and I have yet to see it used to deflect from those circumstances.

It's thoroughly unsurprising that you'd utilize a meme generator to crank out an image alleging lack of "mainstream media" (it's a frequent bogeyman for you, so...BOO!!!) response to incidents of police using excessive force resulting in the death of white people after citing three examples of which you likely weren't aware prior to "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) coverage that they absolutely received.

But yeah, ignore others who employ misrepresentations and logical fallacies.

... I'm just the only one who cares enough...

Well, you picked the right thread in which to make such an assertion, that's for ****in' sure.

 

[DesertPenguin]

No one is questioning your crusade TexRex...

I'm talking about the thread title specifically and you're talking about caring about the overall discussion at large. C'mon man, you knew what I was talking about.

 

[TexRex]

No one is questioning your crusade TexRex...

I'm talking about the thread title specifically and you're talking about caring about the overall discussion at large. C'mon man, you knew what I was talking about.

It's still a glaring example of irony. You allege others don't care enough about the title of a thread in which people allege others don't care about certain events.

Maybe focus more on the contents therein.

 

[DesertPenguin]

What about all this "we can be mad at two things at the same time" talk? That can't apply to this?

Moving on to more important issues at hand...

 

[VBR]

It's thoroughly unsurprising that you'd utilize a meme generator to crank out an image alleging lack of "mainstream media" (it's a frequent bogeyman for you, so...BOO!!!) response to incidents of police using excessive force resulting in the death of white people after citing three examples of which you likely weren't aware prior to "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) coverage that they absolutely received.

I learned of those examples via watching long-form podcasts on YouTube, in this case, it was from Joe Rogan. I'd never heard about any of them from the mainstream media before. After finding out about them, I then searched & found videos from many MSM outlets covering these stories. I never claimed anywhere that the MSM does not cover them at all, & what I posted was in the context of what @PeterJB had claimed, namely that; these stories do not tend to cause the same kind of reaction that the George Floyd incident has, which is true. Sometimes the MSM does indeed lie by omission, other times they simply downplay certain stories or just give them much less air time & attention (turning their 'spotlight' elsewhere).

But yeah, ignore others who employ misrepresentations and logical fallacies.

There's no requirement on GTP to avoid committing logical fallacies, neither is there anything in the AUP that forbids calling people out on them. If I wish to ignore certain people's replies because they contain too much illogic for my liking, & I don't want to waste my time sifting through them searching for any legitimate points which may or may not exist, that's my prerogative. Just as it's the prerogative of others to continue to intentionally or unintentionally commit them through willful or unwillful ignorance, or even deliberately so.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

After finding out about them, I then searched & found videos from many MSM outlets covering these stories. I never claimed anywhere that the MSM does not cover them at all, & what I posted was in the context of what @PeterJB had claimed, namely that; these stories do not tend to cause the same kind of reaction that the George Floyd incident has, which is true. Sometimes the MSM does indeed lie by omission, other times they simply downplay certain stories or just give them much less air time & attention (turning their 'spotlight' elsewhere).

Mainstream media will focus on whatever gets the views from people. It's unfortunate, but that's how they make money.

 

[TexRex]

I learned of those examples via watching long-form podcasts on YouTube, in this case, it was from Joe Rogan. I'd never heard about any of them from the mainstream media before.

You're misrepresenting what I said. I said you likely learned of them after they'd been covered by "mainstream media" (BOO!!!). Even Joe Rogan likely learned of it/them after "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) coverage, which is by no means an assertion that he learned of it/them from "mainstream media" (BOO!!!).

After finding out about them, I then searched & found videos from many MSM outlets covering these stories.

Now this supports my actual assertion, which was that I suspected (it was by no means a concrete allegation and I acknowledged the possibility of the suspicion being incorrect by adding "likely") you didn't learn of them until after they'd actually been covered by "mainstream media" (BOO!!!).

I never claimed anywhere that the MSM does not cover them at all, & what I posted was in the context of what @PeterJB had claimed, namely that; these stories do not tend to cause the same kind of reaction that the George Floyd incident has, which is true. Sometimes the MSM does indeed lie by omission, other times they simply downplay certain stories or just give them much less air time & attention (turning their 'spotlight' elsewhere).

That's far greater explanation than provided by the ten words and the abbreviation for "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) contained within the image you posted. When people create these images (which I suspect may be you in this instance due to the nature of the posting, which is that of an attachment rather than an image embedded via URL), they really ought to go into better detail so as to avoid confusion.

Due to the wording within the image, I interpreted it as "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) deliberately shining a light on one thing and leaving the other in the dark, when they actually shine a light on both.

There's no requirement on GTP to avoid committing logical fallacies, neither is there anything in the AUP that forbids calling people out on them.

I never made such a claim. If I had, I'd have either referred to or directly cited the site's AUP. Stop misrepresenting what I say.

If I wish to ignore certain people's replies because they contain too much illogic for my liking, & I don't want to waste my time sifting through them searching for any legitimate points which may or may not exist, that's my prerogative. Just as it's the prerogative of others to continue to intentionally or unintentionally commit them through willful or unwillful ignorance, or even deliberately so.

Yes, I have seen your signature, but here you are having demonstrated a propensity to misrepresent others' remarks, be it deliberate or not (though I'm inclined to believe it's the former as it's a common tactic employed to undermine arguments), while an indication that you condemn such behavior looms at the bottom of each and every one of your posts. You're holding others to a standard to which you won't hold yourself.

Mainstream media will focus on whatever gets the views from people. It's unfortunate, but that's how they make money.

Too true. It's a common criticism, and indeed one that I share. There's news, of which they also focus on, but then there's the sensational stuff that's ever-present.

 

[TexRex]

Oops.

 

[TheGeologist]

TrainWreck.JPEG.

 

[UKMikey]

TrainWreck.JPEG.

I think it's going okay so far. The thread's serving its purpose and people are largely keeping to their own lanes. Pretty much everyone is coming around to the conclusion that there isn't a conspiracy to keep stories like Cannon's out of the news and it's just the way mass media works. I think that justifies this subject having its own thread to discuss this phenomenon in further depth than sniping at the George or meme threads have achieved so far.

LOL at facemask-supporting posts containing too much illogic and "cult of social justice" and Paul Joseph Watson videos being the "logical" posts though.

 

[quentin1974]

@huskeR32 - If you really are 'genuinely' curious, here are three examples...


Daniel Shaver - was told to put his hands up and crawl towards the officer. He couldn't do this, putting his hands down to crawl instead, but was not chastised for it. Then he was shot five times because the cop thought he was reaching for a gun. Turns out he was unarmed. His only crime was not following the cop's instructions to the letter, some of which were contradictory, & instinctively reaching round to adjust his pants/belt, etc. The cop was charged but found not guilty. The footage is incredibly disturbing, as you actually see him getting shot. You have been warned.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW - EXTREMELY Graphic Footage

Tony Timpa - his only crime was calling the police for help when he came off his meds, took some drugs, & was freaking out. He was mentally ill & needed help, instead, he got kneeled on for 13 minutes, injected, & died as a result. Two officers were 'disciplined' over the killing, & the other three simply returned to work.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW - Graphic Footage

Justine Ruszczyk - called the police, & was shot by officer Mohamed Noor. Her only crime was "spooking" them when coming to greet them. The cop went down for third-degree murder & second-degree manslaughter.

Spoiler: WARNING! - NSFW

I think the American police are 'equal opportunity' brutalizers. IMO, it only seems that they kill more of a certain demographic because of how the media spins it.

Spoiler: Serious meme, not funny at all...

View attachment 949711

there is police brutality against all but the mainstream media likes to paint the picture of it just happening to blacks. I agree that as a black man it happens probably more to people of color but also as a black man I don't believe the picture the media paints. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think so. I don't believe the majority of people are racist but I do believe there is systemic racism in the police departments. I have definitely been a victim of it growing up in my pre-teen and teen years.

 

[VBR]

You're misrepresenting what I said. I said you likely learned of them after they'd been covered by "mainstream media" (BOO!!!). Even Joe Rogan likely learned of it/them after "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) coverage, which is by no means an assertion that he learned of it/them from "mainstream media" (BOO!!!).

Now this supports my actual assertion, which was that I suspected (it was by no means a concrete allegation and I acknowledged the possibility of the suspicion being incorrect by adding "likely") you didn't learn of them until after they'd actually been covered by "mainstream media" (BOO!!!).

That's far greater explanation than provided by the ten words and the abbreviation for "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) contained within the image you posted. When people create these images (which I suspect may be you in this instance due to the nature of the posting, which is that of an attachment rather than an image embedded via URL), they really ought to go into better detail so as to avoid confusion.

Due to the wording within the image, I interpreted it as "mainstream media" (BOO!!!) deliberately shining a light on one thing and leaving the other in the dark, when they actually shine a light on both.

I never made such a claim. If I had, I'd have either referred to or directly cited the site's AUP. Stop misrepresenting what I say.

Yes, I have seen your signature, but here you are having demonstrated a propensity to misrepresent others' remarks, be it deliberate or not (though I'm inclined to believe it's the former as it's a common tactic employed to undermine arguments), while an indication that you condemn such behavior looms at the bottom of each and every one of your posts. You're holding others to a standard to which you won't hold yourself.

Wow...just...wow...

 

[ryzno]

Wow...just...wow...

I'm surprised he didn't get a "Trumpism man" in there somewhere.