The Where's the Outrage Thread

[TexRex]

I think the issue with the "if the races were reversed" statement is that the systemic racism against black people and people of color has made us look at it as "just more crime" and so it gets diminished in the media light.

You're reading too much into it. It's nothing more than exercising the privilege of predicting the outcome of hypothetical events.

Here's another example:

Let's face it, Trump could walk on water and all you'd be hearing is how terrible he is because he can't swim.

 

[huskeR32]

George Floyd's murder was about more than just police brutality, the racial component is what really drove the discussion and the worldwide reaction.

The intersection of the two is where that story lives, and both are equally important.

The racial component is this murder is not one that BLM or the media at large are interested in, because it's the wrong way around.

I strongly disagree. The much more pertinent difference is the lack of power abuse in the murder of Cannon Hinnant.

 

[DesertPenguin]

You're reading too much into it. It's nothing more than exercising the privilege of predicting the outcome of hypothetical events.

Here's another example:

Obviously the "reversed" notion is wrong, but the fact that the case itself is seemingly not getting nationwide-coverage may be for the reason I mentioned

 

[Carbonox]

I strongly disagree. The much more pertinent difference is the lack of power abuse in the murder of Cannon Hinnant.

I would argue that anyone with a gun and knowledge to use it has a lot of power in their hands that would very much be abused by going on to commit murder on an unknowing kid.

 

[PeterJB]

I strongly disagree. The much more pertinent difference is the lack of power abuse in the murder of Cannon Hinnant.

Do grown adults not have power over five year-old children?

 

[huskeR32]

Obviously the "reversed" notion is wrong, but the fact that the case itself is seemingly not getting nationwide-coverage may be for the reason I mentioned

If the case isn’t getting much coverage (and I’d argue it’s getting plenty), it’s because it’s just another case of senseless violence in a country that has far too much of it. It’s one murder in a sea of many murders. There’s nothing about this case that warrants more or less attention than the hundreds of others we also aren’t talking about. It’s being seized upon by bad-faith actors who want it to be different, but it’s not.

 

[TexRex]

Obviously the "reversed" notion is wrong, but the fact that the case itself is seemingly not getting nationwide-coverage may be for the reason I mentioned

It may be wrong, but it's all they've got.

George Floyd was black. Derek Chauvin is white. A black person was killed by a white person and people are outraged. Cannon Hinnant was white. Darius Sessoms is black. A black person killed a white person and the people who are outraged by the former aren't outraged by the latter. Nothing else matters. Disregard every other thing that distinguishes the two situations. Don't let facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

 

[huskeR32]

I would argue that anyone with a gun and knowledge to use it has a lot of power in their hands that would very much be abused by going on to commit murder on an unknowing kid.

Do grown adults not have power over five year-old children?

Both of you are missing my point, and I suspect intentionally.

Holding a gun or being older than another human being aren’t forms of power entrusted to individuals by society at large for the betterment of that society. I’m not talking about individual power dynamics. I’m talking about systemic power structures. Like police departments.

 

[UKMikey]

I can't necessarily speak towards US coverage but in the UK there are reports on it from the Sun, the Independent and the Daily Star, but there are no reports on the BBC, the Guardian, the Daily Telegraph, or Sky News' websites, which are our four largest media outlets. Most of the discussion, interestingly enough, appears to be about the lack of discussion, as George Floyd's murder and the subsequent riots/protests were headline news on every news channel and every newspaper for days afterwards.
George Floyd's murder was about more than just police brutality, the racial component is what really drove the discussion and the worldwide reaction. The racial component is this murder is not one that BLM or the media at large are interested in, because it's the wrong way around. If the races were reversed, even if there was no evidence of the murder being racially-motivated, BLM would've been all over it, and there undoubtedly would've been comparisons to Emmett Till et al.

Do you think it's because Cannon was white or because his murderer was black?

I wish there was coverage on the media outlets you mentioned but find it hard to believe either of the above is the specific cause. Those outlets have covered murders in the UK of white people by people of Middle Eastern descent (most recently the 2020 Reading stabbings) and a colour bar would've prevented this.

Under the circumstances I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of statement from BBC News clarifying their decision not to run with this particular story on their website but suspect their justification is that senseless though it was, it's not part of a trend as I said in my first post above.

Edit: quoted wrong post initially.

 

[Carbonox]

Both of you are missing my point, and I suspect intentionally.

When in doubt, make a bad faith claim just to be sure?

Holding a gun or being older than another human being aren’t forms of power entrusted to individuals by society at large for the betterment of that society. I’m not talking about individual power dynamics. I’m talking about systemic power structures. Like police departments.

The shooter's position of power is illegitimate no question, but that's not of any consolation when somebody's life is on the line. Cops have a lot more power in their disposal, but until they are able to take control of the situation, others are at the mercy of this impulsive violent criminal and his weapon.

 

[UKMikey]

When in doubt, make a bad faith claim just to be sure?

It's certainly worked for everybody using the "if the races were reversed" argument so far.

The shooter's position of power is illegitimate no question, but that's not of any consolation when somebody's life is on the line. Cops have a lot more power in their disposal, but until they are able to take control of the situation, others are at the mercy of this impulsive violent criminal and his weapon.

We have to trust that people won't go crazy and shoot each other or there's no society (or at least a vastly more paranoid one). I think people treat it more seriously when governments and police departments abuse the power entrusted in them by society than when lone gunmen commit isolated acts though. I don't see them as interchangeable or equivalent as the former is evidence of systematic (and maybe systemic) abuse.

 

[huskeR32]

When in doubt, make a bad faith claim just to be sure?

I neither labeled your argument bad faith, nor put forth any bad faith argument myself. I'm not sure which of those two things you meant, but neither are true.

You either intentionally missed my point, or you genuinely thought I was stupid enough to need it explained to me that a person with a gun wields a power advantage over a person without one. I still suspect it's the former, as I can't imagine anybody on this site actually needing that explained to them.

 

[ryzno]

It's your thread and it's up to you. Like I said I would've made this a Cannon Hinant thread. Let that guy who posts nothing but Chicago stats make his own thread if he wants. Then we can talk about how the president promised to solve everything last month by sending in Federal troops and whether that'll make things better or worse.

Like UKMikey said, something specific to this incident would be more topical.

I appreciate y'alls input.

You lied outright and didn't vote at all.

I voted for Obama twice and Trump. Last time I looked myself up, I still have a felony charge on my record. I was put on the first offenders act, which I screwed up... I don't know what it shows on the governments end. I've always been under the assumption if you screw up the first offenders act your felony charges stay.
I honestly don't know.
You can believe me or not. I'll gladly give my personal information to a moderator here so they can confirm, if you reported it and feel I'm lying.

 

[PeterJB]

Holding a gun or being older than another human being aren’t forms of power entrusted to individuals by society at large for the betterment of that society. I’m not talking about individual power dynamics. I’m talking about systemic power structures. Like police departments.

A five year-old does not have the same rights and privileges as that of someone aged 18 or over. The reason for minors lacking a lot of those rights and privileges is for protection. Minors cannot for the most part protect themselves and so require adults to do so for them, which is done in part by the system affording the rights and privileges to be able to protect children to those adults.

The racial component is really what's driving the discussions at large about both this murder and George Floyd's. There have been several incidents of white suspects being killed by cops in similar circumstances to George Floyd in recent years (some of which were by black cops), none of which have provoked the reaction that George Floyd's did, despite the same abuses of power committed by the cops in question. There is little to no evidence from the recently-released body cam footage of the entire police interaction with George Floyd of any racial biases. It does not exonerate Derek Chauvin or any of the other cops of his murder, but shows that their over-reaction was due to him repeatedly refusing their requests and resisting arrest. When it took place we didn't have most of that footage, but the assumption by BLM was that it must be racist because George Floyd was black, even though almost every other time they've brought up a situation like this, the suspect has been actively resisting arrest or attacking the cops.

So far there is also little to no evidence of any racial motivation in Cannon Hinnant's murder, whether that changes remains to be seen (there are unconfirmed rumours about the killer making comments about Hinnant's "white privilege"). But you can guarantee something as heinous as this would get BLM's attention if the races were reversed, and inevitably trigger more riots. Even if you leave out the racial element or any discussions about BLM or police brutality as just look at this as a cold-blooded murder, the media silence at large over something like this is deafening.

 

[TexRex]

I voted for Obama twice and Trump. Last time I looked myself up, I still have a felony charge on my record. I was put on the first offenders act, which I screwed up... I don't know what it shows on the governments end. I've always been under the assumption if you screw up the first offenders act your felony charges stay.
I honestly don't know.
You can believe me or not. I'll gladly give my personal information to a moderator here so they can confirm, if you reported it and feel I'm lying.

What I believe makes no difference. I should have kept that to myself, but I didn't and I apologize.

 

[UKMikey]

So far there is also little to no evidence of any racial motivation in Cannon Hinnant's murder, whether that changes remains to be seen (there are unconfirmed rumours about the killer making comments about Hinnant's "white privilege"). But you can guarantee something as heinous as this would get BLM's attention if the races were reversed, and inevitably trigger more riots. Even if you leave out the racial element or any discussions about BLM or police brutality as just look at this as a cold-blooded murder, the media silence at large over something like this is deafening.

What should the media be addressing with regards to this murder? How does it affect the wider society "at large"? I find it hard to believe that Floyd's death would’ve been worldwide media news without the footage which caught it on camera and the subsequent demonstrations. Black people have been killed by white cops before, too.

 

[PeterJB]

What should the media be addressing with regards to this murder? How does it affect the wider society "at large"? I find it hard to believe that Floyd's death would’ve been worldwide media news without the footage which caught it on camera and the subsequent demonstrations. Black people have been killed by white cops before, too.

Just acknowledging it would be a good starting point. CNN have a report, but they've put an image of the boy's father under the headline, which intentionally or unintentionally makes it look as if he's the killer, while there is a very small mugshot of Sessoms at the bottom. Yes, it being filmed certainly helped it to spread so quickly, which brings me back to my point earlier about the autistic white teenager kidnapped and abducted by four black teenagers. That was streamed live on Facebook for all to see, and it got only a fraction of the response and coverage that this did. Granted, it had nothing to do with police brutality, but you can make the same discussions about racism and power dynamics, but that didn't happen because it was the wrong kind of racism (or if you're BLM is wasn't racism at all, since apparently you can't be racist to a white person if you're black).

 

[UKMikey]

Just acknowledging it would be a good starting point. CNN have a report, but they've put an image of the boy's father under the headline, which intentionally or unintentionally makes it look as if he's the killer, while there is a very small mugshot of Sessoms at the bottom. Yes, it being filmed certainly helped it to spread so quickly, which brings me back to my point earlier about the autistic white teenager kidnapped and abducted by four black teenagers. That was streamed live on Facebook for all to see, and it got only a fraction of the response and coverage that this did. Granted, it had nothing to do with police brutality, but you can make the same discussions about racism and power dynamics, but that didn't happen because it was the wrong kind of racism (or if you're BLM is wasn't racism at all, since apparently you can't be racist to a white person if you're black).

That doesn't really answer my question either. This news is only one or two days old on most outlets who are carrying it. It may be too early to say major news outlets are flat out ignoring the story.

Are black kids kidnapping autistic teenagers part of a widespread and historic phenomenon that warrants days of headline news?

 

[DesertPenguin]

@killerjimbag Here's your thread for Saudi Arabia or whatever nonsense you wanna outrage about

 

[ryzno]

Are black kids kidnapping autistic teenagers part of a widespread and historic phenomenon that warrants days of headline news?

No, but what they did to him was extremely uncalled for.

 

[UKMikey]

@killerjimbag Here's your thread for Saudi Arabia or whatever nonsense you wanna outrage about

Please no... I wish he started his own thread for it. There may already be one out there.

No, but what they did to him was extremely uncalled for.

Would anyone on this thread disagree? On this forum?

 

[PeterJB]

That doesn't really answer my question either. This news is only one or two days old on most outlets who are carrying it. It may be too early to say major news outlets are flat out ignoring the story.

Are black kids kidnapping autistic teenagers part of a widespread and historic phenomenon that warrants days of headline news?

It's been almost a week since the murder took place, that's pretty slow in news world.

Police brutality against blacks is not nearly as common as BLM make it out to be, they love to say that cops like to gun black people down at random on a daily basis, but of course the data does not back that up. Incidents like this basically always make the news, especially if they're filmed. The worldwide reaction was obscenely large. One thing however which I think helped fuel the fires of the response was the pandemic. People have been locked away in their homes for weeks on end, and the news coverage about the virus has been non-stop. Going out to riot or protest gives you an excuse to get outside and burn off steam, and discussions about racism and police brutality give the general public and the media something to talk about that isn't the virus.

 

[huskeR32]

A five year-old does not have the same rights and privileges as that of someone aged 18 or over. The reason for minors lacking a lot of those rights and privileges is for protection. Minors cannot for the most part protect themselves and so require adults to do so for them, which is done in part by the system affording the rights and privileges to be able to protect children to those adults.

This is all true, yet there's still not a comparison to be made. Cannon Hinnant didn't die because of the power imbalance between a child and an adult; if he were 18 or older, he still wouldn't survive getting shot in the head. An argument could definitely be made that George Floyd would not have died were it not for the greater power that Derek Chauvin's job granted him.

The racial component is really what's driving the discussions at large about both this murder and George Floyd's.

You're right, but they're very different discussions. The conversation around George Floyd and race is about the way his race intersects with a history of police brutality in this country. The discussion about Cannon Hinnant's race, to this point, is nothing more than a flimsy attempt by some to manufacture hypocrisy on the part of BLM protestors. Because as you said:

So far there is also little to no evidence of any racial motivation in Cannon Hinnant's murder

Race may have played a factor, but as yet, that's not at all established. And until it is, people shouldn't be expected to engage in conversations that presuppose that race was a factor.

There have been several incidents of white suspects being killed by cops in similar circumstances to George Floyd in recent years (some of which were by black cops), none of which have provoked the reaction that George Floyd's did, despite the same abuses of power committed by the cops in question.

I'm genuinely curious to know of one. Find me a white person killed by cops while already subdued and restrained who had committed no crime other than possibly spending a counterfeit bill, something which almost all of us have unknowingly done at some point.

There is little to no evidence from the recently-released body cam footage of the entire police interaction with George Floyd of any racial biases.

And that's where the argument lies, isn't it? There is certainly enough history of cops mistreated black folks in this country, that you can't completely dismiss it. People are going to see what they want to see from it. I personally am not aware of any white folks dying in a set of circumstances like George Floyd. If you can provide a couple, I'd certainly have to reconsider my viewpoint. You're far from the first person to declare "same thing happens to white people all the time, so it's not racism." You would, however, be the first to actually provide an example that doesn't play really loose with how "similar" the circumstances are.

But you can guarantee something as heinous as this would get BLM's attention if the races were reversed, and inevitably trigger more riots.

Nobody can guarantee that. Hypothetical arguments are lazy, and nobody here is required to engage them.

Even if you leave out the racial element or any discussions about BLM or police brutality as just look at this as a cold-blooded murder, the media silence at large over something like this is deafening.

If you leave out the racial element, and you've already acknowledged that it hasn't yet been at all established, then all you have is juste one murder among the dozens that happen every day, and get no attention at all. Which actually means this case is getting more attention than expected. Why don't you find the silence over the other murders that same day "deafening?"

 

[UKMikey]

It's been almost a week since the murder took place, that's pretty slow in news world.

I don't think the news cycle was primed to report upon the town in which it took place. It's not like it was a White House address or press conference.

Police brutality against blacks is not nearly as common as BLM make it out to be, they love to say that cops like to gun black people down at random on a daily basis, but of course the data does not back that up.

Do you have this data?

The worldwide reaction was obscenely large.

I don't think it was obscene.

 

[McLaren]

I'm still lost on what outrage or protesting one would like in relevance to this case?

 

[Joey D]

I'm genuinely curious to know of one. Find me a white person killed by cops while already subdued and restrained who had committed no crime other than possibly spending a counterfeit bill, something which almost all of us have unknowingly done at some point.

I think the Tony Timpa case fits here. He wasn't even committing a crime, but rather scared because of being mentally unstable and was asking for help. The cops more or less suffocated him. While it's not exactly the same as Floyd's murder, there is the common factor that the police used excessive force that ended with a suspect (or in Timpas case, an innocent person) dead.

 

[huskeR32]

I think the Tony Timpa case fits here. He wasn't even committing a crime, but rather scared because of being mentally unstable and was asking for help. The cops more or less suffocated him. While it's not exactly the same as Floyd's murder, there is the common factor that the police used excessive force that ended with a suspect (or in Timpas case, an innocent person) dead.

I'll confess that I'd never even heard of that case. That is truly horrific to read about. Thanks for bringing it here.

 

[Tornado]

I'm still struggling to reconcile the repeated insistence that people don't care about the kid being murdered because he was white; as if the 3 months or so of the media reporting on the fallout from a police officer egregiously killing a guy on camera is so outrageous and unfair that it erases the entirety of the Missing White Woman running joke about media reporting/police response that I remember seeing made fun of all the way back in 2000.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm still lost on what outrage or protesting one would like in relevance to this case?

I'm pretty sure there's plenty of outrage on Facebook, most of directed at BLM for some reason. On the upside a fundraiser for his mother Gwen has raised over $666,000 so far.

I'll confess that I'd never even heard of that case. That is truly horrific to read about. Thanks for bringing it here.

@TexRex has mentioned it a few times on the George Floyd thread as like the John Neville and Eric Garner cases it shares broad similarities with George's death.

 

[Northstar]

I'm still lost on what outrage or protesting one would like in relevance to this case?

This image isn't from this event, but it would look similar.

As I said in the other thread, most of the people complaining about the lack of protests would likely start criticizing said protests the second they started.