Too aggressive?

[Veinz]

The Ferrari did himself no favors by taking that much curb and grass, he only slowed himself down a little too much as a result. From his POV it does look like you are driving into a rapidly closing gap though, you cannot expect all players to have super quick reaction times and jump out of your way, especially in a tight and fast section of the track like that.

A little too aggressive but you both played a part in that collision. I would assign less blame to the Ferrari though.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

The both lost because the Ferrari did something he should have not done.Thats the point.Its funny that you call "ambitious" the fact that OP stays in track and follows the racing line.Its even funnier that you dont understand that Ferrari is to blame here.Perhaps OP should have gone off track or stop racing in your opinion.
And by the way in online racing you dont worry only about yourself.You race against others,you need act considering the fact that there are others -possibly- around you (in front,in the back or in your side).
If you dont and only worry about yourself you are pretty much a moving "accident" waiting for its next
victim.
In the end of the day there is no ambitious or aggressive move here: only a guy that made a really dirty move against OP and both paid a price for that.

OMG really. You don’t worry about yourself. Ask a professional racer if they don’t worry about there own decisions. There own moves. You have a split second to make a decision is that a good move or not. And yes look at my previous point you have to worry about everything. Cars around you. Track etc etc etc. gfPosition it’s a data analysis in your brain for that split second decision. We have all made the right one and the wrong one. The best drivers in the world in F1 have used the word that is was an ambitious move and I made the mistake and could have held off.

The result is he could have backed off as it was ambitious followed him nose to tail through the S a typical non passing zone (that is fact a typical non passing zone) and easily passed the twitchy driver playing an arcade game not knowing sanctioned FIA rules. LOL

The results Are obvious. Small window there but analytically speaking a move that most drivers wouldn’t have taken as the guy was still carrying considerable speed. Yes the wrong line but again another point maybe just maybe that was his line for the previous 9 laps. Who the hell knows certainty not I.

I am clearly saying you are in control of that car at that moment. He was not dive bombed he saw what was in “front of him” and he took a shot in a difficult situation and lost.

That is ambitious he wanted to achieve something and had the drive to do it though statistically the ability to pass on any S corner is low. I am not saying he is at fault so get that out of your brain. I am saying he took a shot in a high risk move that many I mean many good drivers would have backed off. That is so clear based on speed area of track and the ability to make a better pass on the next corner.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

Polyphony should just scrap the Sportsmanship Rating, no appears to care about it.

That is a broad statement. Many people do and it’s going in the right direction.

I certainly would not want to drive in C class. I have seen those clips. Yes S has issues also but now where near C class

 

[JulesDennis]

There is no "risk move" here.No aggressive or ambitious dive.
Ferrari goes OFF TRACK.You have the right to pass a car that is off track and he has the responsibility to re-enter in a safe manner.I you dont understand that,thats fine.But I really hope I dont race against people that think that going off track and then entering straight up into another car is a legit move because the other car was not carefull.

 

[Veinz]

You are blind if you don't see the risk there.

 

[Johnnypenso]

The question of should he have gotten a penalty or not was not the question. Was it an aggressive move or blocking. You can argue all day long on both which we seem to be doing.

You can only worry about yourself in that moment and 30 second clips suck for us to make judgement. Debate on the track or FIA rules or off carrying speed or not yadayadayada.

At the end of the day it statistically is an ambitious move in that area of the track with a high risk and minimal reward. And he lost.

He lost it because the driver he was attempting to pass had enough control over his car and situational awareness to deliberately ram him off the road. .

The Ferrari did himself no favors by taking that much curb and grass, he only slowed himself down a little too much as a result. From his POV it does look like you are driving into a rapidly closing gap though, you cannot expect all players to have super quick reaction times especially in a tight and fast section of the track like that.

A tad too aggressive but it not too bad in my eyes, you both played a part in that collision.

Can't expect them to have super quick reaction times but somehow he has enough control and time to react by running someone off the track at the exact moment he could have chosen to lift and make room instead.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

There is no "risk move" here.No aggressive or ambitious dive.
Ferrari goes OFF TRACK.You have the right to pass a car that is off track and he has the responsibility to re-enter in a safe manner.I you dont understand that,thats fine.But I really hope I dont race against people that think that going off track and then entering straight up into another car is a legit move because the other car was not carefull.

No risk move. Than your analytical breakdown of that situation is flawed. No doubt.

That is a groups of S corners. No risk. OK. This conversation is over. LOL.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

You are blind if you don't see the risk there.

Agree 100%

 

[JulesDennis]

No risk move. Than your analytical breakdown of that situation is flawed. No doubt.

That is a groups of S corners. No risk. OK. This conversation is over. LOL.

Ferrari is out of the track.If Ferrari does play "fair" and dont turn into OP with the intention to hit him there is no contact.
How many times do I have to write the same thing.
When you see someone off track you stop because you think its a "risky" move or keep going using your line?
If you stop and let that car come back and then follow him,keep writing about "risks".
You actually defend a clear dirty move (by the Ferrari) by saying that OP took risks.Thats what you are doing.
"I am in front,I can do whatever I want.The guy behind always takes the blame".
Wrote it before,would write it again here.

 

[slowflux]

You saw an opportunity and went for it, you were not being too aggressive you were racing fairly. The Ferrari took a swipe at you, a bit like Sebastion Vettel does in his Ferrari, in fact maybe it was him practising at home.

 

[cleanLX]

I see the risk, but I cannot help but put myself in the Ferrari... woops-bobbled, where is the Hyundia? Dang! Better leave room or there is going to be a wreck... You make a bobble, you better expect to get pounced, I sure as heck do.
I so much as miss an apex by a little bit I'm in the mirror, watching, did I give up too much? How much run does he have? Can I defend, or am I "had"?
I mess up big time like the Ferrari did, and I sure as heck know it's on.
Aggressive? Yes. Risky? Yes. At fault? I don't see it. Would I be mad? You bet, at myself. Would I have made that move? Probably not, yet that does not change my opinion on it.

 

[elderflower]

Replay is saved. Send me a FRQ (PSN in my sig) and you can download/watch it.

Just sent (honsters). I'm at work now so I'll check it out tonight. 👍

 

[Loopdreams]

That's the way I see it. Perhaps half of the time when playing this game driving into that gap would end badly. That doesn't mean the Ferrari wasn't at fault. But I'd rather avoid the accident and get a chance somewhere else than go spinning off the road, secure in the knowledge that it wasn't my fault.

 

[elderflower]

The Ferrari took a swipe at you, a bit like Sebastion Vettel does in his Ferrari, in fact maybe it was him practising at home.

That made me lol!

 

[Veinz]

Can't expect them to have super quick reaction times but somehow he has enough control and time to react by running someone off the track at the exact moment he could have chosen to lift and make room instead.

Highly doubt the Ferrari even seen him there at that point in time when he was lining himself up for the next corner, lunging in and expecting a random to jump out of your way (especially in a section like that) is a pretty shorted sighted way of passing, there's just way more of a risk of a collision. The OP gambled and lost, hardly worth it especially for 11th place.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

Ferrari is out of the track.If Ferrari does play "fair" and dont turn into OP with the intention to hit him there is no contact.
How many times do I have to write the same thing.
When you see someone off track you stop because you think its a "risky" move or keep going using your line?
If you stop and let that car come back and the follow him then keep writing about "risks".
You actually defend a clear dirty move (by the Ferrari) by saying that OP took risks.Thats what you are doing.
"I am in front,I can do whatever I want.The guy behind always takes the blame".
Wrote it before,would write it again here.

This is getting funny. I never defended the Ferrari driver. Like it or not he was carrying speed wheels off the track FIA rules yadayadayada again.

You are in control of your car. That was a small window. That was a risk. Do any mathematical algorithms you want the % of competing that pass are low. It’s a Risk and ambitious move.

Never called fault never defended the Ferrari and pointed out many times the twitchy and odd line and moving back across the “small” window on the S curves.

I will repeat myself. That was a risk move that it’s ok to back out of. You don’t have to but that the potentially of completing that pass are small. The Ferrari made a split second decision righ or wrong. The guy behind the wheel had so many indications that this had the high potential to go bad.

Guess what. It DID.

 

[TheGeologist]

Wow a lot of replies here! I never expected to wake up to so many comments.

Someone put it best here (I forget who), racing is a bunch of split second decisions. The Ferrari slipped up, so I went for it. Unfortunately he didn't see me, or didn't want to see me.

After reading the discussion, I don't think it was an aggressive move for the last lap. If I don't pass there, I only had one more really good opportunity. If it wasn't the last lap, I would have backed off.

I respectfully disagree with those that say the risk wasn't worth it for 11th. If you don't want to finish as best as possible, are you even a racer?

 

[LaudSpiek1]

Wow a lot of replies here! I never expected to wake up to so many comments.

Someone put it best here (I forget who), racing is a bunch of split second decisions. The Ferrari slipped up, so I went for it. Unfortunately he didn't see me, or didn't want to see me.

After reading the discussion, I don't think it was an aggressive move for the last lap. If I don't pass there, I only had one more really good opportunity. If it wasn't the last lap, I would have backed off.

Agree. You both had split second decisions to make in a fast risky area for any passing.

Agree on the last lap it’s a risk reward decision you make.

 

[TheGeologist]

That made me lol!

"When did I do dangerous driving?"

 

[JulesDennis]

This is getting funny. I never defended the Ferrari driver. Like it or not he was carrying speed wheels off the track FIA rules yadayadayada again.

You are in control of your car. That was a small window. That was a risk. Do any mathematical algorithms you want the % of competing that pass are low. It’s a Risk and ambitious move.

Never called fault never defended the Ferrari and pointed out many times the twitchy and odd line and moving back across the “small” window on the S curves.

I will repeat myself. That was a risk move that it’s ok to back out of. You don’t have to but that the potentially of completing that pass are small. The Ferrari made a split second decision righ or wrong. The guy behind the wheel had so many indications that this had the high potential to go bad.

Guess what. It DID.

Blaming either is tough as your not in there shoes in this instant as it was instantaneous point in time."

When its clear that Ferrari is racing dirty writing something like that is actually a defence for him.

Ambitious is a good word because just looking at yourself nothing else making a pass on the second of any S curves statistically is low so right or wrong the decision is on you and obviously the wrong one was made for that instant.

Another example.Talking about "risks" and "split second decisions" that OP should not have taken or made its a good "defence" for what the Ferrari did.You say OP made the wrong decision.
In other words "If OP was carefful and not racing the way he did,Ferrari should have not hit him".

"The Ferrari was not completely off the track and was carrying speed at some level.If putting two wheels on the rumble strips is off the track we are all in trouble. LOL. Don’t break that down further as yes his other two tires were off the track and we can agree it was a bad line. Was just making a point that he was still carrying speed and was not “completely off the track”.

When the Ferrari was actually off track with all 4 wheels and then turns against OP.Seems to me that you are actually defending that guy.

And even better your #4 post:

In my opinion it is to aggressive.

He left you a slight door but really slight and in general passing in that area is a disaster waiting to happen. Most can’t go side by side through that area with any speed unless you have two very skilled drivers with steering wheels but will be difficult to carry any speed. That chicane is about setting yourself up with a ton of speed to carry that into the next corner which is a much better passing area in both directions on that track.

Sorry just my opinion.

So OP is too aggressive,made the wrong decision and that caused the contact.That is what you wrote.By writing that you are actually defending the Ferrari guy.
So guess what:YOU DID.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

When its clear that Ferrari is racing dirty writing something like that is actually a defence for him.



Another example.Talking about "risks" and "split second decisions" that OP should not have taken or made its a good "defence" for what the Ferrari did.You say OP made the wrong decision.
In other words "If OP was carefful and not racing the way he did,Ferrari should have not hit him".

[QUOTE"The Ferrari was not completely off the track and was carrying speed at some level.If putting two wheels on the rumble strips is off the track we are all in trouble. LOL. Don’t break that down further as yes his other two tires were off the track and we can agree it was a bad line. Was just making a point that he was still carrying speed and was not “completely off the track”.

When the Ferrari was actually off track with all 4 wheels and then turns against OP.Seems to me that you are actually defending that guy.

And even better your #4 post:



So OP is too aggressive,made the wrong decision and that caused the contact.That is what you wrote.By writing that you are actually defending the Ferrari guy.
So guess what:YOU DID.[/QUOTE]

I will agree with you On post 4 I did say aggressive. Then someone pointed out something very well and that was ambitious. So I did clearly change that tone and still do and you can categorize it based on your definition of aggressive and ambitious.

Sounds like I am defending the Ferrari and interpreting it “sounds like” is something I did not say and the issue with texting etc.

I clearly stated that the line was bad. He turned in. Had wheels off etc etc etc.

What we are discussing was the drivers move was this a risk move, aggressive ambitious etc.

Clearly you have stated that is not a risky move in S corners. It is. Clearly in any shape or form that is a risky move. He acknowledges that and played the split second decision of risk reward and lost.

Game over.

 

[JulesDennis]

When the Ferrari was actually off track with all 4 wheels and then turns against OP.Seems to me that you are actually defending that guy.

And even better your #4 post:



So OP is too aggressive,made the wrong decision and that caused the contact.That is what you wrote.By writing that you are actually defending the Ferrari guy.
So guess what:YOU DID.

I will agree with you On post 4 I did say aggressive. Then someone pointed out something very well and that was ambitious. So I did clearly change that tone and still do and you can categorize it based on your definition of aggressive and ambitious.

Sounds like I am defending the Ferrari and interpreting it “sounds like” is something I did not say and the issue with texting etc.

I clearly stated that the line was bad. He turned in. Had wheels off etc etc etc.

What we are discussing was the drivers move was this a risk move, aggressive ambitious etc.

Clearly you have stated that is not a risky move in S corners. It is. Clearly in any shape or form that is a risky move. He acknowledges that and played the split second decision of risk reward and lost.

Game over.

With that logic every move to pass another car is a risky move because you dont actually know how the guy in front is going to react.The same goes when defending:its a risky move because you dont know how the guy is going to attack.

From OP's opening threat:

I made my move but we made contact.Too aggressive of a move or did he door check me?

We are actually debating if OP was too agreessive or the Ferrari turned in on him or both -perhaps-.
Your answer to that is that OP made the wrong decision,high risk move,ambitious/aggressive and all the other things you wrote aka he made a mistake,Ferrari is not at fault.
All this time you are writing about how "wrong" OP was by that decision.Thus even if Ferrari did all the things you say he did,its still OP fault to even think to keep his line and keep racing.That is my friend is what you wrote.You are defending a dirty driver by saying that OP made a wrong or "high risk" decision.

Clearly you have stated that is not a risky move in S corners.

Clearly I have not done anything like that.
Point where I did wrote that:that you can pass in S corners without risk.All my posts are about this situation with a Ferrari racing dirty and turning into OP.Please tell me where in this topic I wrote that people should not worry about making a move going into any corner or especially an S.
Because I quoted your writing to prove my point.Can you do the same or will you take back this one?

 

[Stotty]

After reading the discussion, I don't think it was an aggressive move for the last lap. If I don't pass there, I only had one more really good opportunity. If it wasn't the last lap, I would have backed off.

I respectfully disagree with those that say the risk wasn't worth it for 11th. If you don't want to finish as best as possible, are you even a racer?

I despair

If that's your attitude (probably the same attitude the Ferarri driver had), fair enough, but please don't come back to complain when the same things happens to you race after race.

Thank God I'm at a high enough level I don't have to deal with this.

 

[Mr616]

I'm curious if the community thinks this was too aggressive of a move.

I'm pie4july in the Hyundai. I was getting faster as the race went on, and the yellow Ferrari slipped up. Being the last lap, I made my move but we made contact. Too aggressive of a move or did he door check me? It doesn't appear the game penalized anyone, and my SR moved up from A to S following the race

I would never have gone for that gap. Obvious where the Ferrari was going. Just because you carried more speed is not a devine right to overtake. That's a fast section and change of line would not be easy.

Hyundai at fault all day long for me. He couldn't just jump out of your way. Also, last lap does not mean desperate moves. Only last night I was on pole. Me and second place had a dingdong battle. He passed me near the end of lap 3 as I ran slightly off line, but I was close through the last lap, but our pace was so similar I couldn't get him back cleanly. I tried to force a mistake from him but he didn't cave. I didn't have a wild stab up the inside, even though there was room, because the end result would be what you are showing here.

 

[LaudSpiek1]

Yes. Every pass is a risk move.
Breaking late. Taking a different line. Yes. Yes. Some far less risky then others. That is racing and passing in definition. This is not AI racing so we are humans making risk reward decisions all the time. Some very small and don’t even think about it.

Without watching his race the entire time you cannot say the Ferrari was dirty with any reason of doubt. Come on. Did he see him. Was he trying to hold his line that he did for 10 laps (as wrong as it may have been in the sense of a proper line). Was he aggressive and knocking people off. I don’t know not defending him.

In the end you control your actions and he wasn’t dive bombed by a middle trying to knock him off the track which the Ferrari guy may interpret happened to him. I hope not but you never know.

I am saying for the last time it was a risk move that had a higher percentage of failure due to all the situations presented. You only control yourself and YOUR decision at that point.

Not casting blame and don’t care to.

It’s a risky move is my final thought. I would have backed out of that probably 95% of the time all things considered. You throw in certain variables maybe I go for it.

 

[JulesDennis]

I would never have gone for that gap. Obvious where the Ferrari was going. Just because you carried more speed is not a devine right to overtake. That's a fast section and change of line would not be easy.

Hyundai at fault all day long for me.

I would suggest to read some basic racing rules before posting something like this.

Without watching his race the entire time you cannot say the Ferrari was dirty with any reason of doubt. Come on. Did he see him. Was he trying to hold his line that he did for 10 laps (as wrong as it may have been in the sense of a proper line). Was he aggressive and knocking people off. I don’t know not defending him..

Was it or not a dirty move from Ferrari?If it was then we can stop debating here and now.

....he wasn’t dive bombed by a middle trying to knock him off the track which the Ferrari guy may interpret happened to him. I hope not but you never know.

Thats all theory (what the Ferrari was thinking that OP had in mind/did).We are talking about that contact.Nothing more,nothing less.

I am saying for the last time it was a risk move that had a higher percentage of failure due to all the situations presented. You only control yourself and YOUR decision at that point.

Not casting blame and don’t care to.

It’s a risky move is my final thought. I would have backed out of that probably 95% of the time all things considered. You throw in certain variables maybe I go for it.

It seems that you keep defending that Ferrari as I'll already wrote.You are not casting blame but ...OP made the wrong decision.Its your opinion,I respect that and strongly disagree.
BTW you failed to provide any proof of this :

Clearly you have stated that is not a risky move in S corners.

So I guess that you are taking that back.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Highly doubt the Ferrari even seen him there at that point in time when he was lining himself up for the next corner, lunging in and expecting a random to jump out of your way (especially in a section like that) is a pretty shorted sighted way of passing, there's just way more of a risk of a collision. The OP gambled and lost, hardly worth it especially for 11th place.

Highly doubt the Ferrari saw a guy who was right behind him for several corners, who then loses momentum by trying to cut the corner? Anyone that has ever raced online knows that's likely going to result in an attack on that error as is the right of the following car to do so. He saw him and turned into him, that's very obvious on the replay. The position has nothing to do with it as the racing rules are the same for first and last place.

 

[Shottah072]

There is no "risk move" here.No aggressive or ambitious dive.
Ferrari goes OFF TRACK.You have the right to pass a car that is off track and he has the responsibility to re-enter in a safe manner.I you dont understand that,thats fine.But I really hope I dont race against people that think that going off track and then entering straight up into another car is a legit move because the other car was not carefull.

Offtrack ? he rides the curb hard, too hard probably loosing some speed, but there maybe 0.1 sec where he has not 1 wheel on the tarmac but even then he is still on the curb and still in front when he re enters. He went off track and re entered safely in the space of maybe 0.3 sec if u really want to consider it a offtrack. The offtrack and contact weren't even in the same corner. If he had a real off track he should have moved over but i wouldn't consider riding the curb a tad to hard a real offtrack. The Ferrari could have given more room after he made a small mistake but even if he did with the speed and angle the Hyundai was coming in there would have probably still been contact as there is just no room for 2 cars to carry speed trough those S corners.

 

[kilesa4568]

The Ferrari's options are to accept that he's boxed the previous corner because of a rallycross attempt and expect an attack because of it. A quick glance at the radar would have confirmed it and I'm absolutely convinced he knew exactly where the OP was because he had enough wits about him and control of his car to make a sharp move into the OP at just the right time to cause a crash. It's more worrying to me that people don't see this as a valid passing attempt and are instead trying to move the responsibility for the incident onto a driver that made a legal passing attempt and then was clearly and intentionally rammed off the track by an unhappy driver because he did so.

So many assumptions...

The Ferrari barely lost any speed running slightly wide but the OP thought they would and committed to the lunge early.
What radar? We don't know if they had it turned on. The Ferrari is also hard left of the track and turning right, the Hyundai is on the right and hasn't started to turn right yet so putting each other in blind spots until the last moment. More so for the Ferrari. You're also assuming the contact was malicious but if the Ferrari didn't become aware of the lunge till the last second, what are his options? Hit the car to try and avoid the inside wall or hit the wall to avoid the car? Both crap options.

Do you put your car into the wall before, or after 'late lunges' though?
I mean, if that's what the Ferrari was doing, that's some pretty perceptive driving, following by exceeding unperceptive driving immediately after...

I said what I've done to avoid some lunges. Not what this Ferrari does.

So when you are outside of the track (since you've been in the same position),you come back on,full throtle straight into another car that is on the track and think its somehow.......their fault?

If you are going to call that 'off track' and 'unsafe reentry', please don't aspire to being a race steward. You're basing your entire argument on a bad misconception of those terms. It's alright quoting rules and regulations but they need to be interprette

You only got to his side by carrying too much speed to make the next corner. He lifted his throttle in order to make the following corner. You decided to overtake as if the next corner didn't exist.

You were on his slipstream and downhill. There's no way you would make that section full throttle while overtaking a car side by side.

It couldn't be any plainer than that.

There's a definite split in what constitutes a gap here. I see one half remembering Senna saying that not going for a gap isn't racing and the other half seeing the same gap, working out (easily) what could happen if they attempt it and then thinking better of it. I know which group I'd rather race and it's definitely not with the wannabe Senna's writing cheques they can't cash.

It's no wonder I quit doing the daily races if this threads anything to go by.

 

[Mr616]

Offtrack ? he rides the curb hard, too hard probably loosing some speed, but there maybe 0.1 sec where he has not 1 wheel on the tarmac but even then he is still on the curb and still in front when he re enters. He went off track and re entered safely in the space of maybe 0.3 sec if u really want to consider it a offtrack. The offtrack and contact weren't even in the same corner. If he had a real off track he should have moved over but i wouldn't consider riding the curb a tad to hard a real offtrack. The Ferrari could have given more room after he made a small mistake but even if he did with the speed and angle the Hyundai was coming in there would have probably still been contact as there is just no room for 2 cars to carry speed trough those S corners.

Agree. The way the Ferrari was driving (far from smooth) would make me not go for the gap. It's plain obvious to me that he could be pressured into more mistakes. The way the Ferrari sweeps into the long right hander would indicate to me that he's concentrating on keeping the car on the track. The decision to jump into that gap by the Hyundai was a huge risk.

Jules Dennis: I know racing thank you very much. You seem to think any gap is "on for an overtake" and I strongly disagree. Hyundai got excited about a gap and chose to overtake in a high speed spot passing a car that was driving on the limit for that driver. That is the risk the Hyundai took, and on his head be it. It was a bad read of the situation and he paid the price. He'll learn for next time I would hope. I'm sick of seeing people who carry I bit more speed than someone else immediately think "I can overtake" like it's some divine right or a given that you can make a pass. No you can't. It even looks like he tries to swipe at the Ferrari after initial contact to me.