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He ran it last year.
Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars
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- Ardius_
I think he means Welch running a 2nd car - in which case its entirely dependant on them finding a driver with the money to pay, which is the case for every team in the BTCC except Honda/Team Dynamics.
I haven't heard any rumours specific to Welch yet, its not like F1 where contracts are agreed months in advance and the teams pick who they like and certain drivers are loyal to certain teams.
Literally anyone could be anywhere. Welch could well end up with anyone from Giovanardi to Liam Griffin. But they are unlikely to run a 2nd car if they can't find someone to bring the funds. Same goes for Rob Austin (still looking for money for the 2nd car) and Dynojet (who sound like they are probably not going to run a 2nd car).
We won't know who is really where for the full grid till Brands Hatch.
I haven't heard any rumours specific to Welch yet, its not like F1 where contracts are agreed months in advance and the teams pick who they like and certain drivers are loyal to certain teams.
Literally anyone could be anywhere. Welch could well end up with anyone from Giovanardi to Liam Griffin. But they are unlikely to run a 2nd car if they can't find someone to bring the funds. Same goes for Rob Austin (still looking for money for the 2nd car) and Dynojet (who sound like they are probably not going to run a 2nd car).
We won't know who is really where for the full grid till Brands Hatch.
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Chris swanwich is driving the second Audi 
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Yeah, I meant to ask that if Welch is running a second Proton. They impressed me last year so if they can find a driver, more sponsors then I'd love to see them work as a complete team. I really have high hopes because the Proton Gen2/Persona is a very good car!
Also, is the WSR S2000 320si going to have a turbo engine? I don't think they can afford a 320TC at the moment. They've also posted their events calendar on their official FB page so I think in any way whatsoever they will be on the grid.
Also, is the WSR S2000 320si going to have a turbo engine? I don't think they can afford a 320TC at the moment. They've also posted their events calendar on their official FB page so I think in any way whatsoever they will be on the grid.
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He is building one, whether he gets the funds to run it or not remains to be seen...
Chris swanwich is driving the second Audi
That was a few races at the end of last year, RAR have no second driver yet.
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- Ardius_
The 320TC is merely an update to meet current WTCC regulations - which are not BTCC regulations. There is no point in any BTCC team switching to it. WSR could put an NGTC turbo engine in their 320si but there is no news on what they are doing yet.
Geoff Steel are currently advertising for their seat though in an NGTC engined-320si so you may get at least one BMW on the grid.
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Oooh, thanks for the clearing mate... I just want to see the BMWs doing good real badly this year. If they couldn't prove it this year then I wouldn't be surprised if any of current teams running BMW making a switch to any FWD cars. Also I can understand the 320si being really old already.
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If anyone does run a BMW 320si this year (or any other S2000 car), they should at least steal some decent results at the start of the year while the big teams are still getting to grips with their new NGTC cars. Thats the hope anyway. Lets not forget that even though the regulations will favour the NGTC cars, the S2000s can hold their own reasonably well, especiallly with a turbo engine.
The only problem is who is driving the BMWs and which teams, certainly not top teams (though as I say, no news for WSR yet).
So I'd say you can be optimistic that if anyone does run a BMW it should get the odd good result. But its never going to challenge for the championship. I'm pretty sure an NGTC car will win the championship. I think the results Rob Collard achieved last year are pretty much the best you can hope for.
The only problem is who is driving the BMWs and which teams, certainly not top teams (though as I say, no news for WSR yet).
So I'd say you can be optimistic that if anyone does run a BMW it should get the odd good result. But its never going to challenge for the championship. I'm pretty sure an NGTC car will win the championship. I think the results Rob Collard achieved last year are pretty much the best you can hope for.
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S2000 cars could still get some decent results if the performance matching is done in the right way, especially if somebody shows up with a couple of Cruze's.
Robin
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Glad to see that MG are back in the BTCC with KX Momentum Racing running MG6 fastbacks.
And they have signed Plato which should give the team some clout to silence the haters. The 6 is quite a decent handling car and I think this tuned verison will be a real contender.
The car looks stunning I can't wait to see it for real!
Robin.
And they have signed Plato which should give the team some clout to silence the haters. The 6 is quite a decent handling car and I think this tuned verison will be a real contender.
The car looks stunning I can't wait to see it for real!
Robin.
Robin
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A few things:
1. Who hates 888 or MG?
2. If anything signing Plato certainly brings some haters!
3. The handling of the roadcar is pretty much irrelevant but I'm sure 888 will do a good job...just look at how competitive the Vectra still is.
1. Loads of people who see it as a Chinese car / brand and those who think it doesnt look like an MG (despite there being no specific MG 'look'!).
2. True
but you can't deny his success and that he's a big name.3. I'm sure they will but a lot more DNA of the road car stays in the BTCC version compared to many other motorsports, the shell and structure alone will be a huge factor in its success.
One things for sure, its going to look badass in racing trim.
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Within the NGTC regulations, the shell is irrelevant. The chassis strength comes mainly from it's roll cage. The suspension and transmission are all bolted to universal subframes which are then anchored to the cage. The shell basically then just sits around that structure. The regs were designed that way so a multitude of teams/manufacturers could enter without the massive financial outlay needed to develop a specific chassis. Whilst they're not quite 'silhouette specials' - in the same way that modern DTM and SuperGT 'Touring Cars' are, they certainly don't have to rely on starting off with an inherently good road car chassis, like they might have done back in the days of Group A Touring Cars (E30 M3, Sierra Cosworth etc).
Robin
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Seeing as all the BTCC liveries are now hugely garish (due to the lack of factory teams) I think it fits in perfectly with a neon multicoloured lineup and reminds me of Nascar liveries. Its sponsored by supermarket petrol, what more do you want!
Besides, its a mock up and might change over the next few months.
Yes but it still helps to not have a totally duff car as the starting point, the aerodynamic properties of the shell for example will matter. I'm basically trying to highlight that the stock MG6 is in no way a bad handling car and that its good to have it representing the brand in motorsport. Its also great that the new reg's have allowed teams like this to compete without a huge financial outlay.
Robin.
Robin
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I would have also loved that but I understand why they would want to distance themselves from that era and xpower which was a ludicrous flight of fancy by the Phoenix group whilst the main company was going down like the Titanic. The last thing they should have been spending their money on was racing.
Also if your not a factory team you can't really dictate overall colour schemes as different major sponsors will all want a say and it ends up multicoloured!
I believe there are still some independants who run ZS's with similar xpower liveries.
Robin.
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Yup. When I had a close look at the Avensis at last year's Croft media day I was amazed how little Avensis there was left. It's not far from being a spaceframe car now. It's hard to tell from this picture, but the engine essentially sits in the subframe you mentioned, and there's none of the normal bodywork or chassis that holds the suspension - that's all mounted to the subframe too. Looking into the engine bay is like looking into a purpose-built racer. Ditto the rear end.
It's been a long time since a road car has had anything do do with how good the race car would be. Closest in recent memory was the Production class of the BTCC in the early 00s, when there were Integras, Accords, 306s, Protons etc running. Before that, you have to go back to the pre-Supertouring days.
As for the whole Xpower thing, it may have been financially unwise overall, but it did a massive amount of good for the company's image. It turned a whole generation around to the idea of buying an MG - people who previously thought the company just made MGBs for people with beards and flat caps were suddenly buying hot hatches and saloons on the back of BTCC, British Rally and Le Mans.
The massive shame of it was that the late-era MG Rover products were genuinely good cars (odd "miss" aside, like the rebadged Tata Indica - Rover CityRover - or the "Streetwise"), but by that point it was already too late. There was never the money to develop entirely new cars, so the ZR/ZS/ZT didn't have replacements, got old and the company died.
Edit:
As an interesting comparison to show the relative success of the last MGs, a quick look at howmanyleft.co.uk reveals MG were selling 15,000 ZRs a year in their peak. That's more than Alfa Romeo has sold MiTos in total (similar C-segment car, and MiTos are pretty popular by Alfa standards), and more than VW was selling Golf GTIs over the same period.
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Yup. When I had a close look at the Avensis at last year's Croft media day I was amazed how little Avensis there was left. It's not far from being a spaceframe car now. It's hard to tell from this picture, but the engine essentially sits in the subframe you mentioned, and there's none of the normal bodywork or chassis that holds the suspension - that's all mounted to the subframe too. Looking into the engine bay is like looking into a purpose-built racer. Ditto the rear end.
Don't really like the direction they are going with NGTC in that respect. I know it makes competing cheaper and therefore more accessible, and that's certainly a good thing. But once the shell becomes something you wrap around the car - rather than the structure that you hang everything off, then your are essentially no different to a single seater, sports prototype or a stock car (in the US sense of the term). For me, a touring car should be based on a car you can buy in a dealership - not a purpose-built race car that you then make to look like a road car.
I know the majority of the BTCC-watching general public are ill-informed (or just don't care) But for me, it's the beginning of the BTCC losing it's very essence.
Robin
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It's still quite neon like the rest of the pack, easier to have a cleaner look when you have no other sponsors!
Watching the Ginetta's is really entertaining but as you stated it looks like a destruction derby at times
The problem was they could not peddle 20 year old cars off the back of motorsport forever and it was that lack of a long term plan that destroyed the company. It did help MG's image massively when it needed it the most but it was still irresponsible to not put that money into doing something about the cars first even if there wasnt enough to make an entirely new model.
But in the end some good came from all of this because under SAIC MG are getting an all new (apart from the 6's engine) range of cars which would have been a dream under Phoenix.
I agree, if its going to become more and more like a stock series then theres no point. The whole charm of touring cars is that each manufacturer has something different to offer.
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Agreed. Not keen on the way it's heading, but at the very least it'll hopefully bring loads of new cars to the series.
Well, they're all 14-17 years old. It's the motor racing equivalent of GTP's GT5 forum
I don't think the financial commitment was quite as big as you'd think, surprisingly. Most of the development work was handled by (I think - correct me if I'm wrong) MSD for the ZR rally team, WSR for the ZS BTCC racers and Lola for the Le Mans attempt. MG Rover obviously put money into each but it wasn't like X Power was an entirely in-house effort... more a brand which they applied to their various racing exploits.
I think motorsport or not, they simply didn't have the money to sustain themselves and develop new models. At the very least, the motorsport probably helped them stay afloat a few years longer than they might have otherwise.
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Typical, I am afraid to say, of the trend in views older fans have of the more unfamiliar newer fans that the BTCC has managed to attract since the end of the overly hyped ST era (which sadly could be the contributing factor in why older fans think more recent innovations in the BTCC is so bad. They miss the 90's). Like me for one. The majority of the BTCC watching public will be wondering what the heck the last few posts have been about not because they are ill-informed or don't care, but because they haven't been around long enough to understand why older fans are so anal about everything. Why it is they look to deeper than is absolutely necessary into everything and find explanations for things that on the surface don't appear.
Over a page worth of posts and I still don't see what people are saying. And frankly I don't want to see. So long as the newer fans aren't able to see whatever fundamental wrongs that people are pointing out that inherently exist in the NGTC cars then how can the NGTC be harmful?
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Miss the 90's touring cars? - i miss the '60's touring cars - and wasn't even born then
It's a fair point though, i'll certainly grant you that. If it brings in more teams and the racing continues to be close, then i guess it doesn't matter what the basis of the cars is. And it's that close competitive element that really is the essence of BTCC and Touring Cars in general.
I have no real affinity with any of the sets of BTCC rules/regs over the years. Group 2, Group A, Super Touring, S2000 - they all had their golden eras, and all were forced to be changed to something new eventually, for one reason or another.
The one thing that has been a constant during the better seasons is manufacturer support, once you loose that, you loose the money - and then you loose the big name talent. Once it becomes a series of entirely privateer teams, sponsors loose interest, the casual fan looses interest since it no longer gets marketed as well, then TV viewing figures fall and soon drops off the prime scheduling spots. Before you know it, its become a shadow of it's former self.
There are plenty of national race series out there with great, close racing and championships that go down to the wire. The one element that keeps BTCC in the public eye is manufacture/factory support and all that it brings with it to the party. I just hope that the NGTC regs and their non-reliance on what the car is based on, doesn't turn manutacturers off being part of it.
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Honda enter WTCC! (click the picture link)
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I disagree that Supertouring was over-hyped. It was one of the best periods of manufacturer support ever in the sport, featured some of the best drivers the sport has ever seen, attracted massive crowds to the events, and coincided with a real increase in television coverage, making it accessible to all.
And if that wasn't enough, the racing was fantastic too. It's not over-hyped, it's deservedly hyped.
If there was any real issue with ST, it's that it quickly developed into something that was both unsustainably expensive, and took the cars involved too far from the production cars they were based on.
You're mistaking us thinking it's harmful for the series, from it being something we're passionate about. If it makes the racing more affordable and drags more teams into the series (like it appears to be doing) then it's obviously a good thing. It's just not quite the same knowing that the competitiveness of a certain car is almost as unrelated to the road car it's based on as Sebastian Vettel's Renault-powered F1 car has to do with a Renault Laguna.
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