Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Diehardracer]

The one thing that has been a constant during the better seasons is manufacturer support, once you loose that, you loose the money - and then you loose the big name talent. Once it becomes a series of entirely privateer teams, sponsors loose interest, the casual fan looses interest since it no longer gets marketed as well, then TV viewing figures fall and soon drops off the prime scheduling spots. Before you know it, its become a shadow of it's former self.

There are plenty of national race series out there with great, close racing and championships that go down to the wire. The one element that keeps BTCC in the public eye is manufacture/factory support and all that it brings with it to the party. I just hope that the NGTC regs and their non-reliance on what the car is based on, doesn't turn manutacturers off being part of it.

You have an excellent point.

The fact theirs a decent representation of works backed teams is a great source of appeal for fans. They represent a high-profile element that has impact. Look at the feelings stirred by the announcement last week that MG was to come back to racing and hook up with the most successful team in it's history. We have a squad that will give Honda Racing a massive headache. Triple Eight is one of the best run teams in the series.

Sponsors. I know goose egg about the concept of sponsoring in the context of sport but presumably the money aspect you talk about in the first paragraph of the quote comes in the form of the vast sums of money large companies are willing to plough into the team to be a title sponsor. Much more money than personal commercial partners provide. I know that Tesco Momentum will be putting in so much more money to be title sponsor of 888 than CPC or Coffeedrops.co.uk will be giving Dave Newsham to be a main backer of Dave Newsham. Title sponsors of teams always plough more money than sponsors of individual drivers. It takes more money from sponsors to help a team run than a driver.

But are they integral? last year for me was the most competitive Independent Drivers Championship I have know. Triple Eight's James Nash and Airwaves Racing's Mat Jackson were battling tooth-and-nail for top spot all season long. Then you had teams like WSR, Pirtek and STR taking valuable points. In the end the top 5 in the standings were all separated by 75pts. We do need works teams but I think the strength of the Indies supplement any loss made by the lack of many manufacturers.

 

[TheCracker]

But are they integral? last year for me was the most competitive Independent Drivers Championship I have know. Triple Eight's James Nash and Airwaves Racing's Mat Jackson were battling tooth-and-nail for top spot all season long. Then you had teams like WSR, Pirtek and STR taking valuable points. In the end the top 5 in the standings were all separated by 75pts. We do need works teams but I think the strength of the Indies supplement any loss made by the lack of many manufacturers.

As entertaining as the Independents Championship is, without manufacturer supported teams - which in turn attract the big money sponsors, the BTCC is no more relevant than say the Britcar Production Championship. To keep BTCC in the public eye, it needs the big name sponsors and the money to pay the big name drivers. That's not to say that the big name drivers are actually any better than many of the other star BTCC drivers, but they do bring in the crowds. Whilst some BTCC drivers fly in from their Monaco apartments in their own private helicopter, other equally talented 'professional' drivers, who struggle to get a budget together for a season, will turn up at a race in a clapped out Rover 400 recovered from a scrap yard. Rightly or wrongly, Plato etc spark media interest to the casual fan - while the Onslow-Cole's just don't.

 

[Ardius]

As entertaining as the Independents Championship is, without manufacturer supported teams - which in turn attract the big money sponsors, the BTCC is no more relevant than say the Britcar Production Championship. To keep BTCC in the public eye, it needs the big name sponsors and the money to pay the big name drivers. That's not to say that the big name drivers are actually any better than many of the other star BTCC drivers, but they do bring in the crowds. Whilst some BTCC drivers fly in from their Monaco apartments in their own private helicopter, other equally talented 'professional' drivers, who struggle to get a budget together for a season, will turn up at a race in a clapped out Rover 400 recovered from a scrap yard. Rightly or wrongly, Plato etc spark media interest to the casual fan - while the Onslow-Cole's just don't.

This is exactly why I'm happy with NGTC regulations. Although the cars have less in common with roadcars, it means manufacturers are coming in because any negatives or problems with their roadcar don't really matter - only the team, drivers and budget matter. This makes it cheaper to be successful and hence much more value for money.

And seeing as without the manufacturers and bigger sponsors none of the best drivers would be around (already we are missing so many drivers who should be driving!), its pretty obvious that manufacturers can only be good.

That said, all motorsport series should be careful not to make their series rely on this money. Manufacturers have their own interests and can easily pull out. Inevitably, because manufacturers bring money, the budgets go up and it becomes more expensive for indepedants to compete. So the regulations should also be cheap and good value for smaller and indepedent teams.

SuperTouring was both great and bad for the sport. It massively boosted the popularity from brief TV highlights and no live coverage to full live coverage and now to a full package including support races all on ITV4! How can anyone complain or wish this had never happened I don't understand - without ST we wouldn't be here today looking forward to watching the new season without having to personally attend each event!
It was also bad for the sport in that it raised costs massively and when the manufacturers lost interest the series was left with a handful of struggling teams. Anyone remember 2001?

The fact that this year we are looking at drivers like Onslow-Cole, O'Neill, Collard, Turkington, among so many others not being able to find a drive - clearly we must welcome changes which make the sport both cheaper and also better value for sponsors.

Personally, BTCC should be about low-aero, average powered cars rubbing bumpers with a grid filled with different-looking cars (even if mechanically they are not) and allowing a variety of drivers to race each other, from rookies starting their career, to the pros to the wealthy "pay driver" trying to prove a point and have some fun. NGTC seems to be all of this. I'm willing to let go the roadcar-connection if it means the sport can exist like this.

 

[TheCracker]

And seeing as without the manufacturers and bigger sponsors none of the best drivers would be around (already we are missing so many drivers who should be driving!), its pretty obvious that manufacturers can only be good.

That said, all motorsport series should be careful not to make their series rely on this money. Manufacturers have their own interests and can easily pull out. Inevitably, because manufacturers bring money, the budgets go up and it becomes more expensive for indepedants to compete. So the regulations should also be cheap and good value for smaller and indepedent teams.

This is why the BTCC is successful IMO. They're not afraid to make cost cutting and equalizing measures - however unpopular those decisions may be from some quarters. And even completely overhaul the regulations when budgets get out of hand. Their unreliance on total manufacturer support gives them the flexibility to change direction relatively quickly, unlike other 'touring cars' series 👍

It's a balancing act between too much manufacturer support and too little or none at all. The WTCC strives for too much and suffers greatly when one drops out.

The DTM, Super GT and V8 Supercars - the former two i'd struggle to class as touring car series (and are moving away from that label these days anyway) - Have gone past the point of no return, they totally rely on manufacturers and in my eyes have become largely dull to watch. The races are far too long and the cars too reliant on aerodynamics.

 

[Ardius]

SuperGT was never touring cars anyway, clues in the name . The JTCC ran at the same time as the JGTC - which says it all about which is touring cars and which isn't.
DTM was touring cars but in the 90s it pretty much became the same as JGTC/SuperGT.

V8 Supercars is a bit closer but as you say has also become aerodynamic-reliant and features longer races.

Touring cars (adding to what has already been said) should also be about shorter races on smaller, local tracks...tracks which aren't used by the rest of the major motorsport categories. They find a niche between simple local club events and the big international events by running a popular race meeting but at a smaller, local track.
This is what Alan Gow has repeatedly said and stuck to, and BTCC is all the better for it...while still being open to running longer tracks to try them out (e.g. Snetterton 300).

 

[cgr-10]

Sorry to butt in on the discussion but I want to go to a BTCC meeting this year and the nearest tracks to me in Leeds are Oulton Park, Donnington Park and Croft. Trying to persuade my dad to drive me down to Brands Hatch etc. would be near impossible

Which of these three tracks would you most advise going to watch a race at, for interesting viewing spots for example? 👍

 

[Only_in_f1]

Sorry to butt in on the discussion but I want to go to a BTCC meeting this year and the nearest tracks to me in Leeds are Oulton Park, Donnington Park and Croft. Trying to persuade my dad to drive me down to Brands Hatch etc. would be near impossible

Which of these three tracks would you most advise going to watch a race at, for interesting viewing spots for example? 👍

Rockingham is good because from the main grandstand you can see the whole track. I like Snetterton actually on top of the new viewing back on the infield, they place a big screen right opposite so you never miss anything! Brands is good, stand at Druids or at the bottom of Paddock Hill bend see how steep a drop it is for them. Amazing view.

 

[Liquid]

Cascades at Oulton is good, as is the outer side of Foster's, just before Knickerbrook.

 

[cgr-10]

Rockingham is good because from the main grandstand you can see the whole track. I like Snetterton actually on top of the new viewing back on the infield, they place a big screen right opposite so you never miss anything! Brands is good, stand at Druids or at the bottom of Paddock Hill bend see how steep a drop it is for them. Amazing view.

I know Brands is an amazing track and I've heard good things about Snetterton from friends who have been there, Rockingham also seems interesting due to the fact they've got the oval track grandstands. But I'm only 14 and it's trouble enough persuading my dad to drive me to the circuit, never mind when it's 3-4 hours away.

So basically my options are Croft, Donnington and Oulton.

EDIT: Ah right Mazda, I just wanted some ideas for which track has the better viewing spots, I'll check Oulton out further. Thanks for the advice 👍

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Sorry to butt in on the discussion but I want to go to a BTCC meeting this year and the nearest tracks to me in Leeds are Oulton Park, Donnington Park and Croft. Trying to persuade my dad to drive me down to Brands Hatch etc. would be near impossible

Which of these three tracks would you most advise going to watch a race at, for interesting viewing spots for example? 👍

Donnington Park, it always throws up incredible races and gives a great view if you sit on the grass at the old hairpin, I've been to Oulton Park too and its a great track but Donnington is the best track in the world!

 

[cgr-10]

Donnington Park, it always throws up incredible races and gives a great view if you sit on the grass at the old hairpin, I've been to Oulton Park too and its a great track but Donnington is the best track in the world!

I've always had a soft spot for Donnington to be honest, I'd much rather the British GP was held there than Silverstone. It'll be a toss up between them two I think

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Donnington Park, it always throws up incredible races and gives a great view if you sit on the grass at the old hairpin, I've been to Oulton Park too and its a great track but Donnington is the best track in the world!

You've not been to Knockhill then and wait till you see whats planned for thos year

 

[Diehardracer]

So basically my options are Croft, Donnington and Oulton.

This ^

I have been to Croft since 2001 and the embankment looking up the start finish straight at Clervaux and Hawthorn let's you see quite a large portion of the track from the start of the start/finish straight to Tower. The one between Hawthorn and Chicane on a clear and sunny day (pardon the pun) let's you see see over Parc Ferme and over to Sunny In & Sunny Out.

 

[jeffgoddin]

You guys are making me jelly. All I've got is Mid-Ohio, and closer Ohio's Nelson Ledges Road Course. Nothing awesome like the BTCC tracks. Foo.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

This ^

I have been to Croft since 2001 and the embankment looking up the start finish straight at Clervaux and Hawthorn let's you see quite a large portion of the track from the start of the start/finish straight to Tower. The one between Hawthorn and Chicane on a clear and sunny day (pardon the pun) let's you see see over Parc Ferme and over to Sunny In & Sunny Out.

Tbh I've never liked croft I think it suffers the same as a lot of old airfield tracks in the fact that they are too flat. Don't get me wrong it's a very fast track but abit boring. Still got 3 trips planned to it this year. Sports and saloons in both may and September although may be at the nurburgring 24hr race for the may one then may June and September with the minis.

This was the last time we went the tyres were down to the metal! It's very hard on tyres

 

[Ardius]

Sorry to butt in on the discussion but I want to go to a BTCC meeting this year and the nearest tracks to me in Leeds are Oulton Park, Donnington Park and Croft. Trying to persuade my dad to drive me down to Brands Hatch etc. would be near impossible

Which of these three tracks would you most advise going to watch a race at, for interesting viewing spots for example? 👍

I fully recommend Oulton Park, you can pick any spot to watch as most are good but the best ones are either;
Inside the track at Knickerbrook/Cascades.
Outside the track at Fosters/Knickerbrook.

As these give you a view up the hill towards the hairpin as well as the chicane and up Knickerbrook.

I also like watching just before Lodge Corner and at the apex of Lodge, at the Island Bend hairpin and at Old Hall Corner. But these offer a very limited view of the track - but give a better impression of speed and also feature most of the incidents and accidents.

Generally its best to spend the first meeting you go to moving around and trying different spots, then you know where you want to watch from. Perhaps for the support races try the other viewing spots.

I also recommend Oulton because its one of the circuits that allow free pitlane access for the autograph session. I've heard Thruxton charge for this.

Here's one of my past pictures from the top of the hill looking back at Cascades/Fosters hairpin to give you some sense of what you can actually see:

So if you imagine you were standing directly opposite from this photo, you would be able to see all the way up the hill, as well as down into the entry of the chicane.
And if you were standing far down to the left of this photo, you'd be able from the entry of Cascades to the top of the hill, then all the way back down and up towards Druids.

 

[cgr-10]

That looks absolutely brilliant Ardius, I think I'll take your advice and walk around abit during the support races before settling down in a good spot for the main event. Oulton Park it is

 

[Diehardracer]

Tbh I've never liked croft I think it suffers the same as a lot of old airfield tracks in the fact that they are too flat. Don't get me wrong it's a very fast track but abit boring. Still got 3 trips planned to it this year. Sports and saloons in both may and September although may be at the nurburgring 24hr race for the may one then may June and September with the minis.

This was the last time we went the tyres were down to the metal! It's very hard on tyres

Harsh on Croft that like.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Just for comparison: Here's Donnington (Not my picture, they're all on discs that I need to find)

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Harsh on Croft that like.

As 90% of the drivers that came up thought it was too flat but I suppose you are rather spoilt with Knockhill, brands hatch that's another story though!

 

[Diehardracer]

As 90% of the drivers that came up thought it was too flat but I suppose you are rather spoilt with Knockhill, brands hatch that's another story though!

You may want to check your atlas when guessing where I live. I only have Croft to visit.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

You may want to check your atlas when guessing where I live. I only have Croft to visit.

I've been to several,hence my opinion that croft isnt all that great in fact of the list posted i found it was the most,although less said about oulton park aswell due to previous experiences

 

[thesrdic]

When is the Donnington round? My dad lives near there so might head back from uni for a weekend for that Also I know there's at least one track close to my uni (portsmouth), can't remember which though.. Where's best to get the tickets from btw? I follow Btcc as I do most other types of racing- endurance/openwheel/other sports cars, but I've never been to a btcc race!

 

[Liquid]

Sorry for the outburst, but...

Donington is with one N. Please.

 

[Ardius]

When is the Donnington round? My dad lives near there so might head back from uni for a weekend for that Also I know there's at least one track close to my uni (portsmouth), can't remember which though.. Where's best to get the tickets from btw? I follow Btcc as I do most other types of racing- endurance/openwheel/other sports cars, but I've never been to a btcc race!

Donington is the 15th April. Thruxton I think is your closest. But Brands Hatch is not much further.

Donington tickets are here:
http://www.donington-park.co.uk/events/2012/04/14/british-touring-car-championship/

Thruxton tickets are here:
http://eshop.barc.net/tickets/thruxton.html

Brands Hatch tickets are here:
http://www.brandshatch.co.uk/calendar.aspx

You can get a lot of info about the tracks and the event timetable from here:
http://btcc.net/html/racedates.php

 

[TheCracker]

As 90% of the drivers that came up thought it was too flat but I suppose you are rather spoilt with Knockhill, brands hatch that's another story though!

It's not the flatness of Croft that i dislike, it's the mickey mouse section at the end of the lap that really disrupt what would have been a nice flowing, and quick, layout. It does have some scary quick sections around the back end of the circuit that are really big-balls stuff - especially when run-off space is at a minimum.

 

[thesrdic]

Donington is the 15th April. Thruxton I think is your closest. But Brands Hatch is not much further.

Donington tickets are here:
http://www.donington-park.co.uk/events/2012/04/14/british-touring-car-championship/

Thruxton tickets are here:
http://eshop.barc.net/tickets/thruxton.html

Brands Hatch tickets are here:
http://www.brandshatch.co.uk/calendar.aspx

You can get a lot of info about the tracks and the event timetable from here:
http://btcc.net/html/racedates.php

Thanks, Thruxton is the one I was thinking of! Now I just need to convince a friend or two at uni that it's worth going so I can get there! I'd love to go to Brands Hatch as well but that may be a bit too far away though! 👍

 

[Diehardracer]

Alex MacDowall to test for Motorbase Performance.

 

[Only_in_f1]

James Nash to race for Aon in WTCC

 

[MatskiMonk]

Just my two cents on the track debate, having finally managed to visit all the BTCC circuits over the past two years...

They all have their good bits and bad bits (though I'm struggling to think of any good bits about Silverstone... hmm, oh yes, it's only 20 minutes away!)

Knockhill
Brands Hatch
Oulton Park
Rockingham (* probably only this high-up because of the spectating bonus of the free 3/4 storey grandstand)
Donington
Snetterton
Croft
Thruxton
Silverstone