Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[Tired Tyres]

Maybe World Touring cars should just be an end of season small number of races for the Champions of the domestic championships? They'd all have to run to same rules of course.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

Maybe World Touring cars should just be an end of season small number of races for the Champions of the domestic championships? They'd all have to run to same rules of course.

Macua would be a nice race for that.

But sadly rules in the domestic championships are to different at the moment. And in Europe only BTCC is interesting.

 

[Bo]

And in Europe only BTCC is interesting.

Euro V8 is fantastic, even with a depleted grid.

 

[RACECAR]

No one follows WTCC anymore?
It is even more boring than F1 .
Citroen being so much faster than the rest really doesn't make it an interesting series. I'm only watching, to see how Tom Coronel is doing.

This could be such a nice world campionship if the car companies would support it properly. Damn recession...

Not really surprised. Its quickly becoming apparent that Sebastian Loeb is just too damn good in anything he gets in. Basically, you're watching a repeat of WRC (which is funny enough, being dominated by another French Red Bull sponsored driver named Sebastian).

 

[Bo]

Not really surprised. Its quickly becoming apparent that Sebastian Loeb is just too damn good in anything he gets in. Basically, you're watching a repeat of WRC (which is funny enough, being dominated by another French Red Bull sponsored driver named Sebastian).

Errrrrr... it's nothing to do with Loeb, he's been consistently the worst Citroen driver all season (and hasn't even made Q3 a few times). Citroen are fast because they were given the TC1 regs before anyone else...

 

[RACECAR]

Errrrrr... it's nothing to do with Loeb, he's been consistently the worst Citroen driver all season (and hasn't even made Q3 a few times). Citroen are fast because they were given the TC1 regs before anyone else...

You mean for once, Sebastian Loeb isn't good at something? I'll admit I haven't watched WTCC this year (doesn't help that I don't get to see at least a highlight package anymore after Speed became FS1) so when I heard Citroen was dominating the WTCC and Loeb was driving for them (after watching him dominate WRC for so long and then go to Pikes Peak for the first time and blitz it), I automatically assumed it was pretty much all him. My mistake.

 

[Clark]

And they probably completed the equivalent of a round the world the trip in testing last year.

 

[Bo]

You mean for once, Sebastian Loeb isn't good at something? I'll admit I haven't watched WTCC this year (doesn't help that I don't get to see at least a highlight package anymore after Speed became FS1) so when I heard Citroen was dominating the WTCC and Loeb was driving for them (after watching him dominate WRC for so long and then go to Pikes Peak for the first time and blitz it), I automatically assumed it was pretty much all him. My mistake.

He's doing OK, but there have been a lot of clumsy errors, and he just doesn't seem to find all the pace for such an OP car. Pechito's been the star, and Muller and Loeb are both a bit frosty with him.

And they rob ably completed the equivalent of a round the world the trip in testing last year.

If they had some form of testing ban in place, the problem would be nothing like it currently is. Lada are my heroes of 2014.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Not really surprised. Its quickly becoming apparent that Sebastian Loeb is just too damn good in anything he gets in. Basically, you're watching a repeat of WRC (which is funny enough, being dominated by another French Red Bull sponsored driver named Sebastian).

01

José María López 310 pts
02

Yvan Muller 250 pts
03

Sébastien Loeb 213 pts

___


Anyway, apparently Franz Engstler is off at the end of the season. Perhaps to TC3, but either way it seems he'll be leaving the BMW brand behind after 25 years - I am disappoint. I wish BMW would build a touring car again - team up with ROAL as a works effort. Move Joey Hand back to Team RLL in the US full time, he's not showing his best in the DTM... move 3 time WTCC champ Andy Priaulx back behind the wheel of a proper touring car, partner him up with Tom Coronel, and a rookie, and start selling customer cars to the likes of Franz Engstler again.

 

[Clark]

Can't see BMW doing anything more than DTM for now to be honest.

 

[Liquid]

Maybe World Touring cars should just be an end of season small number of races for the Champions of the domestic championships? They'd all have to run to same rules of course.

The old Touring Car World Cup was run 1993-95 under supertouring regs. It actually wasn't that bad but was dropped after only 10 provisional entries for 1996. On top of that, we don't have this explosion of interest in domestic touring cars in their respective nations at this moment in time compared to back then nor a 'hot' formula spreading in popularity and adoption.

But I do agree, the WTCC is quite boring and could easily be shifted to a one off. As a marquee event, perhaps turn the Guia into a one off 'world' touring car event for the BTCC, STCC and so on?

 

[MatskiMonk]

Can't see BMW doing anything more than DTM for now to be honest.

They need to do something. The Z4 GT program isn't yielding any results now (except I think for a title in the British GT Championship), and despite Marco trouncing everyone in the DTM this year, we somehow managed to let Audi take the manufacturers crown this year.. not good enough. Mercedes field a very successful F1 team, Audi have their LMP program, I'd like BMW to have something else also, and I'd like it to be touring cars. Every generation of 3 series thus far has been successful in touring cars.. at this rate the F30 3 series will let that legacy grow stale.

 

[Bo]

Moving back to what's actually happened in WTCC, Suzuka R2 was OK-ish. I've expected Lopez to wrap it up since I first saw him in Marrakech, and he's my lesser of 3 evils essentially, since I truly despise both Muller and Loeb.

The race showed how the Citroens lose their way in traffic when you're on a track that's difficult to overtake on. Not only have they got their aero setup completely wrong for it, but they're also so impatient that they begin to trip each other up - see the Shanghai collision. We also saw Citroens taking other cars out of the race without consequences, how shocking.

A great P2 for Borkovic after the horrible season he's had, and a well deserved and needed victory for JAS and Tarquini.

They need to do something. The Z4 GT program isn't yielding any results now (except I think for a title in the British GT Championship)

The Z4's always bounce around the top end of the championship, but always falter near the end... almost happened this year, Attard had to sit out the race and pray the Oman Aston didn't win.

Every generation of 3 series thus far has been successful in touring cars.. at this rate the F30 3 series will let that legacy grow stale.

There were the Motorbase F30 rumours, but they've dried up.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Well Eric Neve still seems confident, interview on TcT: http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/10/27/eric-neve-sure-the-field-will-expand-in-2015/


This bit I find interesting, but I'll not hold out much hope (or at least not enough hope to start paying for Eurosport again )

When asked about the possibility of new manufacturers joining the championship, Nève replied:”When we think about the future of the championship we see it as very bright. We have been in talks with manufacturers, not only because we ask them, but also because interested constructors come to us, but in the near future there is nothing I can announce. I can only say that there is a lot of interest, that is for sure.”

 

[mustafur]

Maybe World Touring cars should just be an end of season small number of races for the Champions of the domestic championships? They'd all have to run to same rules of course.

Agree, only issue is a formula would have to be created that is used by all, NGTC would obviously be the best one.

I would make it an Enduro raced at a Touring car style track and is used annually rather then rotating the event around The world so that way the event has a chance to grow.

 

[mustafur]

They need to do something. The Z4 GT program isn't yielding any results now (except I think for a title in the British GT Championship), and despite Marco trouncing everyone in the DTM this year, we somehow managed to let Audi take the manufacturers crown this year.. not good enough. Mercedes field a very successful F1 team, Audi have their LMP program, I'd like BMW to have something else also, and I'd like it to be touring cars. Every generation of 3 series thus far has been successful in touring cars.. at this rate the F30 3 series will let that legacy grow stale.

BMW have a History of irrational Involvement that never really stick to anything long before leaving again.

Some examples
-80's F1
-2000's F1
-WRC with Mini
-late 90's GT1/LMP
etc.

 

[mustafur]

01

José María López 310 pts
02

Yvan Muller 250 pts
03

Sébastien Loeb 213 pts

___


Anyway, apparently Franz Engstler is off at the end of the season. Perhaps to TC3, but either way it seems he'll be leaving the BMW brand behind after 25 years - I am disappoint. I wish BMW would build a touring car again - team up with ROAL as a works effort. Move Joey Hand back to Team RLL in the US full time, he's not showing his best in the DTM... move 3 time WTCC champ Andy Priaulx back behind the wheel of a proper touring car, partner him up with Tom Coronel, and a rookie, and start selling customer cars to the likes of Franz Engstler again.

The single most Logical thing BMW could do is give factory support to WSR BTCC Program and then Replace Foster with someone like Priaulx.

Oh and change from the 1 series to the 3 series.

 

[MatskiMonk]

BMW have a History of irrational Involvement that never really stick to anything long before leaving again.

Some examples
-80's F1
-2000's F1
-WRC with Mini
-late 90's GT1/LMP
etc.

Don't forget WSBK too! Their lack of long term commitment can be frustrating, but most of the decisions for both entering, and exiting, are fairly rational.

The single most Logical thing BMW could do is give factory support to WSR BTCC Program and then Replace Foster with someone like Priaulx.

Oh and change from the 1 series to the 3 series.

I'm sure WSR would appreciate the support, but it doesn't actually make that much sense, WSR have won the title with the 1 series and Turk already, Priaulx wouldn't bring much more to the team other than perhaps dilute the chances for the drivers title, and much as I'd love to see the 3-er back on the grid, the 1 series is now a well developed car, capable of fending off full works teams. Potentially, all it's going to do is cost BMW money, for promotion in a single national championship, that the brand is already successful in.

BMW want international series, hence why the WTCC would be better. Theres a reason why the DTM stopped coming to the UK, market saturation of the brand.

 

[mustafur]

Don't forget WSBK too! Their lack of long term commitment can be frustrating, but most of the decisions for both entering, and exiting, are fairly rational.



I'm sure WSR would appreciate the support, but it doesn't actually make that much sense, WSR have won the title with the 1 series and Turk already, Priaulx wouldn't bring much more to the team other than perhaps dilute the chances for the drivers title, and much as I'd love to see the 3-er back on the grid, the 1 series is now a well developed car, capable of fending off full works teams. Potentially, all it's going to do is cost BMW money, for promotion in a single national championship, that the brand is already successful in.

BMW want international series, hence why the WTCC would be better. Theres a reason why the DTM stopped coming to the UK, market saturation of the brand.

that would make sense if more people actually watch WTCC then BTCC which is definitely not the case.

When it comes to International exposure in racing you have very little options outside of F1 that get notable viewership.

WEC LMP program honestly would be their best bet.

 

[RACECAR]

01

José María López 310 pts
02

Yvan Muller 250 pts
03

Sébastien Loeb 213 pts

Might want to check the posts after mine. @hsv already showed me how far off my assumption was.

 

[Bo]

Muller had an almost 50% DNF rate too.

 

[MatskiMonk]

that would make sense if more people actually watch WTCC then BTCC which is definitely not the case.

When it comes to International exposure in racing you have very little options outside of F1 that get notable viewership.

WEC LMP program honestly would be their best bet.

Just because the BTCC is a better series to watch, don't under estimate how big a place the world is....

http://www.fiawtcc.com/press

“Eurosport Events managed to organize free to air domestic coverage across 80% of WTCC
events in 2014”, Ribeiro added, “We have good reasons to believe that overall TV distribution
will also go over 557 million viewers measured last year by Repucom.”

The FIA World Touring Car Championship 2014 is off to a record-breaking start in terms of
TV audience on WTCC home fan channel Eurosport. Figures for the first four rounds of the
season released today by Eurosport show increases of average audience for live races on
Eurosport channels over 30% with respect to last year’s opening rounds, for an average
reach of 9 million viewers per round.

Don't get me wrong, I love the BTCC and I'd be ecstatic if Priaulx came back to race in the UK with a factory supported 3 series.... my Avatar should give that away... but, from BMW AG's perspective, I can see it makes very very little sense.

What BMW want from touring cars is global platform. S2000 worked for them because they could develop a car, promote it via success in the WTCC, and then sell customer cars for national championships such as the BTCC, STCC, Procar etc. Now everyone's running different, or less well established regs, it's much harder to do.

I'd love an LMP program too, I don't see it happening though... primary focus has to be on a successful GT program (i.e. get the M6 GT3 up to speed as fast as possible), as this can directly generate revenue for the company through the customer car program.

Might want to check the posts after mine. @hsv already showed me how far off my assumption was.

Apologies, I didn't know what Loeb's points deficit was myself so I thought I'd post up the actuals for reference.

 

[Legro]

There is one big reason for WTCC having more watchers than BTCC, TV coverage. While BTCC is much better series to watch it doesn't have many channels to show it outside UK, unlike WTCC which has big international broadcaster (Eurosport) behind it. The fact is that most people won't search for online streams if the series doesn't have any TV broadcast available.

 

[SagarisGTB]

01

José María López 310 pts
02

Yvan Muller 250 pts
03

Sébastien Loeb 213 pts

Bit outdated this. Lopez has clinched the championship with 422 points. Muller has 305, Loeb 275. Still, the point you were trying to make stands.

But I do agree, the WTCC is quite boring and could easily be shifted to a one off. As a marquee event, perhaps turn the Guia into a one off 'world' touring car event for the BTCC, STCC and so on?

Ironically, the Macau GP has dropped WTCC from it's program for next year. Rumour is that they are unhappy with the way Eurosport is treating the marquee F3 race in comparison to Eurosport's own WTCC races.

The race showed how the Citroens lose their way in traffic when you're on a track that's difficult to overtake on. Not only have they got their aero setup completely wrong for it, but they're also so impatient that they begin to trip each other up - see the Shanghai collision.

Citroen have slowly lost their big advantage over the season. At Marrakech and Ricard they were blasting by easily in the reverse grid races. They needed to do more work at Moscow and Spa and now they aren't even winning reverse grid races anymore. The cause is a combination of weight handicaps taking their toll and Honda/RML catching up (especially during the summer break).

Muller had an almost 50% DNF rate too.

Excuse my math but 4/21 = 50%?

 

[Bo]

Citroen have slowly lost their big advantage over the season. At Marrakech and Ricard they were blasting by easily. They needed to do more work at Moscow and Spa and now they aren't even winning reverse grid races anymore. It's a combination of weight handicaps taking their toll and Honda/RML catching up (especially during the summer break).

Especially compared to the tracks with big open straights - the Cruzes were able to pull away from the Citroens in a straight line at Suzuka.

Excuse my math but 4/21 = 50%?

Martin Haven said something about an almost 50% something rate (46% ish)... so was it non points scoring races?

 

[SagarisGTB]

Martin Haven was mitigating Pechito's domination by constantly going on and on about Muller's 0s. He has had 4 non-scores (2 start collisions, the Loeb collision and the Suzuka puncture). Lopez had 1 (gearbox in Moscow), plus starting last in both Ricard races. The extra DNFs explain part of the large points gap, but Lopez has been the much better driver regardless of Muller's misfortune.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

More details on TC3 International, with a calendar released - including three Grand Prix support events in Malaysia, Shanghai and Singapore:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014...s-releases-its-provisional-calendar-for-2015/

They're still insisting that they are not a rival to the WTCC, though ...

 

[mustafur]

There is one big reason for WTCC having more watchers than BTCC, TV coverage. While BTCC is much better series to watch it doesn't have many channels to show it outside UK, unlike WTCC which has big international broadcaster (Eurosport) behind it. The fact is that most people won't search for online streams if the series doesn't have any TV broadcast available.

I can watch it live here in Australia Via Speed channel.

 

[Diehardracer]

WestCoast Racing will run Honda Civic's in the new TC3 Series. Coloni Racing will also do it. So we have the first two teams announced.

 

[Bo]

Macau was... vaguely interesting. The guest TC2T drivers were showing why they shouldn't be on the grid however.