Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[SagarisGTB]

The racing might good for WTCC standards but its easily less action packed then the worst BTCC race by a huge margin.

You're really pushing it with this hyperbole. I saw all three Oulton Park races this year and it was follow-the-leader at it's worst. So no, it wasn't less action packed.

GT racing is different because the cars are much more equal then this so that combined with speed makes it more suited.

I don't quite follow. The difference is that GT races are longer and you don't expect the same constant action you expect in short touring car races. GT racing usually isn't all that much closer than WTCC, it's just that we expect different things from GT racing.

Both categories display some of their best racing at Spa because Spa is good. That is known. For the spectator, it might not be ideal to wait two and a half minutes to see the cars come round again, which is compounded with short race distances, but on TV it's good. I bet if BTCC came to Spa, the racing would be good, the action into La Source and Les Combes would be frantic and constantly two wide. Perhaps as a general rule, shorter laps suit touring cars better, but when the racing is as great as it is at Spa, it's not a problem.

 

[mustafur]

You're really pushing it with this hyperbole. I saw all three Oulton Park races this year and it was follow-the-leader at it's worst. So no, it wasn't less action packed.I don't quite follow. The difference is that GT races are longer and you don't expect the same constant action you expect in short touring car races. GT racing usually isn't all that much closer than WTCC, it's just that we expect different things from GT racing.

Both categories display some of their best racing at Spa because Spa is good. That is known. For the spectator, it might not be ideal to wait two and a half minutes to see the cars come round again, which is compounded with short race distances, but on TV it's good. I bet if BTCC came to Spa, the racing would be good, the action into La Source and Les Combes would be frantic and constantly two wide. Perhaps as a general rule, shorter laps suit touring cars better, but when the racing is as great as it is at Spa, it's not a problem.

Tbh its just opinion at this point, you clearly enjoy wtcc in some way where i have zero intrest in it, so there is going to be conflict with opinion.

I did watch the spa race and i didn't like it at all, and my opinion isnt going to change on that.

 

[SagarisGTB]

WTCC is a very broken series. There's very little to enjoy, though the reverse grids can throw up some fun sometimes, but I mostly watch to see Pechito take it to the celebrated Frenchmen. If Muller was running away with the championship, I don't think I'd be watching much of it at all.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Spa and Nürburgring are great touring car circuits. I've held touring car races at both, in every game I've played... Never a dull moment. Now, the same can't be said about Marrakech...


What I would really like from WTCC is if they created a new standard in even car performance. The idea of being one of the best drivers in the field (James Thompson, Tom Coronel, Michel Nykjaer etc.) but still a few seconds slower than the fastest guys (inevitably, Loëb and the Citroën) is just wrong

 

[Bo]

You're really pushing it with this hyperbole. I saw all three Oulton Park races this year and it was follow-the-leader at it's worst.

Well, you tuned into the least interesting BTCC weekend in about 10 years. Possibly ever. That's why they're not going back to the full circuit. Pick me any other race from 2014, 2013, 2012, 2011...

Stick the current crop of drivers in WTCC into BTCC and they wouldn't be in for instant good results. Menu came from several dominant years with Chevy - where is he now? Scraping top 10's. And he's a world class driver.

BTCC, now, is far more exciting, entertaining, well-run, well-organised and well-put together than WTCC could ever hope to be. BTCC penalties are still inconsistent, but they're fair, and they completely avoid the blatant bias and drop of the hat drive-throughs that go on in WTCC (watch the way the Citroens go through the field, and ask yourself how they don't get penalties).

For example, at Spa - Valente runs wide to avoid a crash, gains no advantage - instant drive-through. Race 2, slightest rub with Lopez (didn't do anything to either of them), and Lopez deliberately t-bones him out the way. He gets zilch.

Marrakech - Loeb or Muller? cuts the chicane in quali lap. His time still stands, unlike everyone else who did it - in which it was an instant time removal. It took a face to face stand off between the stewards and Chilton, and around 4/5 hours to take his time away. Bit iffy, to say the least.

Paul Ricard showed it a lot:

Plus some other moves that got nothing.

Argentina showed what they get away with too, with Morbidelli getting an instant drive-through for tapping Thommo sideways, whilst Loeb deliberately shoved Chilton onto the grass (ending his race) - aaand he gets nothing.

WTCC is a very broken series. There's very little to enjoy, though the reverse grids can throw up some fun sometimes, but I mostly watch to see Pechito take it to the celebrated Frenchmen. If Muller was running away with the championship, I don't think I'd be watching much of it at all.

I love seeing Muller and Loeb's hatred at being beaten by a teammate for once - none of them like each other, and they're only united in them not wanting Lopez to win.

In terms of tracks, I see nothing wrong with big tracks. If the regs are good enough, length of track shouldn't matter. One interesting point about tracks is that after Oulton, Gow vowed not to use the full track in 2015 because of the negative reception. How many years have people been complaining about Marrakech? Could you see WTCC listening to fans' concerns in the same way?

 

[Furinkazen]

WTCC is a very broken series. There's very little to enjoy, though the reverse grids can throw up some fun sometimes, but I mostly watch to see Pechito take it to the celebrated Frenchmen. If Muller was running away with the championship, I don't think I'd be watching much of it at all.

Also my issue is WTCC have done what DTM did and moved away from traditional touring car ethos and turned them more towards GT performance levels. The less mechanical grip and aero you have the better racing will be. WTCC has teams that are in it plainly because of chequebook size and nothing else - why James Thompson has wasted a good few years of his career away in a Lada is obviously money-related.

 

[mustafur]

Also my issue is WTCC have done what DTM did and moved away from traditional touring car ethos and turned them more towards GT performance levels. The less mechanical grip and aero you have the better racing will be. WTCC has teams that are in it plainly because of chequebook size and nothing else - why James Thompson has wasted a good few years of his career away in a Lada is obviously money-related.

and Huff as well.

 

[Furinkazen]

and Huff as well.

Also making me think of of BTCC exports Chilton (love him or hate him), and Tom Boardman. Not saying in BTCC you don't have lemons - anyone remember the Proton Impians? Lexus IS200's of HPI? The Insignia in it's first year? - but in BTCC the depth is very deep now. They were mentioning it on TV at weekend, and saying that now to get just in the top 15pts you are up against people like Giovanardi and Menu - shows some serious depth.

@SagarisGTB I was at Oulton this year and it was first race in many years they used the full layout. Everyone, drivers, Alan Gow, all agreed it didn't work. But there was only one way to find out. Snetterton was pretty crazy though on sunday - 5 seconds covering top 10 finishers!

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The new Lada WTCC car has been launched, and it looks like a real racing car:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/08/28/new-lada-vesta-concept-to-be-revealed-with-new-sponsor/

 

[Bo]

This only deepens my love for Lada.

 

[Robin]

The new Lada WTCC car has been launched, and it looks like a real racing car:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/08/28/new-lada-vesta-concept-to-be-revealed-with-new-sponsor/

That's looks great! WTCC really needs all the factory teams it can get these days and it's good to see Lada in motorsport.

 

[Bo]

That's looks great! WTCC really needs all the factory teams it can get these days and it's good to see Lada in motorsport.

I think they've gained a lot this year. They could be able to challenge Honda next year.

 

[CAMikaze]

The new Lada WTCC car has been launched, and it looks like a real racing car:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/08/28/new-lada-vesta-concept-to-be-revealed-with-new-sponsor/

Well LADA-deedadada.

Question is will it be mistaken for a DTM car?

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

I have always liked the clean simplicity of Skoda/Lads/Eastern European car designs... But that's just amazing. They've taken what they do best and nailed it.


Expect it to be slow.

 

[Bo]

Expect it to be slow.

They should at least be on par with the Chevy's next year.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

They should at least be on par with the Chevy's next year.

You can't make beauty fast. Anyone who's ever had a girlfriend knows this.


It's too good-looking to be fast. It's a new Alfa 8C. Very good looking, but out-powered.



Sure, it's speculation, but it always seems like the good looking cars finish towards the back... I don't recall seeing the old Lacettis doing very badly, but the new Civics... Well. Lacetti looks worse than Civic.

 

[mustafur]

Lada have to be the worst Factory team in Racing, i would be surprised if they are anywhere with that car despite how much better it looks.

just imagen how bad they would be if they didn't have two Elite drivers.

 

[Clark]

Lada have to be the worst Factory team in Racing, .

#devilsadvocate

 

[Bo]

Lada have to be the worst Factory team in Racing, i would be surprised if they are anywhere with that car despite how much better it looks.

just imagen how bad they would be if they didn't have two Elite drivers.

They're picking up a lot now... really. They don't have the biggest budget ever.

 

[mustafur]

They're picking up a lot now... really. They don't have the biggest budget ever.

Still, getting Beat by self made Privateer cars surely highlights how bad they are.

 

[Bo]

Still, getting Beat by self made Privateer cars surely highlights how bad they are.

The current car doesn't really fit the regs all that well, and they are the farthest behind on testing by a long shot. They're getting better, and the new updates should bring them above some of the Chevy's.

 

[Furinkazen]

If you were going to make any track permanent it wouldn't the Morroco street circuit.. right... riiiigghhhtt???
http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/09/10/circuit-moulay-el-hassan-to-become-a-permanent-track/

 

[Bo]

That's one of the most bizarre and pointless things I think I've ever seen.

 

[DK]

It's only ever fun when it's in Race07.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

First details of TC3:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/09/15/tc3-announces-first-cars-teams-regulations-and-events/

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

No one follows WTCC anymore?
It is even more boring than F1 .
Citroen being so much faster than the rest really doesn't make it an interesting series. I'm only watching, to see how Tom Coronel is doing.

This could be such a nice world campionship if the car companies would support it properly. Damn recession...

 

[Bo]

No one follows WTCC anymore?
It is even more boring than F1 .

I do. Unfortunately.

Citroen being so much faster than the rest really doesn't make it an interesting series. I'm only watching, to see how Tom Coronel is doing.

I only watch to see if any of the Citroens can get smashed off.

This could be such a nice world campionship if the car companies would support it properly. Damn recession...

I don't think any recession matters when you have such a weak championship in the first place, with laughable BOP and consistent blunders and irregularities.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Has anyone ever really followed WTCC though? I don't see any reason for it to exist other than being something for Eurosport to show.

It was thought up by Eurosport in the first place. It was part of their super race weekends when they showed the start of a GT race, then some TC races and then went back to the end of the GT race.

 

[Mike-ZENKAI]

I do. Unfortunately.

I only watch to see if any of the Citroens can get smashed off.

I don't think any recession matters when you have such a iweak championship in the first place, with laughable BOP and consistent blunders and irregularities.

Would not expect a clash between the Citroens after the Loeb/Muller incident.

Agree that there are some very serious issues with this championship, but the idea of a World Touring Car Championship is good. Recognizable cars with close racing and some contact here and there, must give a nice show.

 

[Bo]

Recognizable cars with close racing and some contact here and there, must give a nice show.

That describes... touring cars in general, and WTCC executes the idea worse than pretty much every other TC series.