Touring Car discussion - WTCC, BTCC etcTouring Cars

[ITCC_Andrew]

I wholly believe that touring cars are the ones who need to be simplified. Instead of the seemingly 8 page rulebook the FIA is running currently, which obviously lends itself to more development, along the lines of "well, this is our small rulebook. There aren't many stipulations. Let's completely and entirely overhaul the car so it barely resembles anything other than a FF DTM car."


Instead, I see something along the lines of a faster "B-Spec" series being the most desired. "These are the springs you can use. These are the engines you can use. These are your tires. These are your brakes. Don't like it? Go to WTCC, spend a couple million dollars and be out-developed by Citroën." I've just made a better (less expensive, more closely-matched) rulebook in 10 minutes than FIA did in 9 years of WTCC.


I'd like to toss in a reference to the series which are using similar setups:

1: Canadian Touring Car Championship, noteably, is the main proponent of this system. Great tracks like Mont Tremblant, Mosport, Trois-Rivières...

2: Australian V8 Supercars, see #1, add V8s with no fancy diffs and even better tracks (Bathurst, Gold Coast, Clipsal/Adelaide)

3: BTCC, to an extent... BTCC does have a seriously well-balanced rulebook/BoP, but it doesn't have the same methods.

4: DTM - look past the KERS and all of that rubbish, and you'll see a German-esque rulebook; very specific, very detailed, very fair.


Compare those 4 touring car series with WTCC, and you'll see how spread out WTCC truly is - the competitors seem to be spread by miles and miles after the first three corners...

 

[Clark]

WTCC as almost an FF DTM? Not in a million years mate. DTM cars have absolutely nothing to do with the road car, they are complete silhouettes, the engines are nothing like any engines they have in a production car, and the rest of the car is closer to an LMP or a single seater.

And your proposed 'B-series' with standard brakes and suspension etc? That's NGTC, a lot of the car is to a common spec with identical parts, such as brakes, subframes etc.

Standardise the car anymore and you may as well just run the Leon Supercup where they use identical cars. Otherwise you end up with a championship where the cars only look different but are the same underneath. That would work for a national series (Brazilian V8 Stockcars) but on a global level the manufacturers would be apprehensive to run a championship where their expertise money won't be a deciding factor.

DTM, KERS? What?

Finally the WTCC, take out the Citroens and it very close, but it's the risk you run in any big championship, you rely on the teams being realistic and not coming in and just steamrolling the project with mountains of cash. The same thing happened with FIA GT and Mercedes in the late 90's and it damn near killed the series (it may have killed completely, not too sure). Maybe the WTCC needs to consider a budget cap and testing limit, and set it low enough to help the smaller teams, but high enough to not put off the manufacturers who want to develop their cars they way they want to. (Just not as much as Citroen did, who probably out more money in to it than every other team combined)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

2: Australian V8 Supercars, see #1, add V8s with no fancy diffs and even better tracks (Bathurst, Gold Coast, Clipsal/Adelaide)

I suggest you do a little more research. The "Car of the Future" concept was originally supposed to indirectly cap costs at $250,000 - and in the space of a year, the cost per chassis doubled. And the series has had huge problems with engine and aerodynamic parity.

 

[05XR8]

http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/championship/world-champ-chases-v8-supercars-drive

 

[Clark]

Can't wait to see Turkington in this at the Silverstone Classic

Flash and Neal sharing a Cortina, Tim Harvey and Mike Jordan both in GT40s as well

 

[MatskiMonk]

I know this is a bit of a general rant, but every time I read this thread I think the same things.

I kind of liked S2000 as an idea. National championships all running the same spec, shared with the 'headline' international championship, and for smaller territories additional championships (such as the ETCC). Manufacturers driving the International series, with the equipment available to (and trickling down to) all the national teams. A BMW 320 WTCC was about €250,000 .. not a massive amount, and there were always plenty of chassis trickling down from the works teams, and and 320Si's could be seen racing in most of the national series... same with the other marques I'm sure.

The technical regs don't need to be rocket science, they need to be simple, the cars should be close to production, but given enough performance to make them fast enough to be interesting. The circuits chosen need to be selected based on their ability to provide interesting racing, not on tourism sponsorship. The performance equalisation needs to be simple and transparent and applied sensibly. The cars should have as few common parts as is necessary to keep manufacturers interested, but enough to keep maintenance/repair bills low for national series. When the international events visit the national circuits the weekends should be shared - cross promoting the national and international championships to raise interest and awareness.

Touring cars isn't pure competition, it can only live if it's an entertainment also - that to me is a what a sport is. The gratification needs to be for the audience as well as the competitors.

I love touring cars, I'm saddened by what the WTCC has become, I can't deny the BTCC is great at the moment, but there's always that little niggle about them being 'too similar' underneath, STCC went all silhouette, Procar is a joke (IMO), as is ETCC (to a point), smaller series' like the RTCC or other european TCC's only get the cast off's anyway and are virtually impossible to follow/watch... and the Americans seem to have a reasonable touring car class, just not one that integrates with anyone else.

I'd also like to see a seasonal cup race, where the top two cars from each regional series and say the top 4 from the international series (for instance) compete in a one-off even each year for a secondary kind of champions league race.


... ooooh and I'd like to see a much longer race once a year for the international series, with an invitational to all the other National touring cars invited.

.. okay, okay, I'm just dreaming me now...

.. but either way, something needs to be done!

 

[05XR8]

http://www.speedcafe.com/2014/06/30/heritage-touring-cars-set-bathurst-return/

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Looks like the rumoured volvo entry into the BTCC is a no go

 

[VXR]

I've been a fan of touring cars since the 90s heyday and in all forms of Motorsport it's the one closest to production that have always appealed. We live in an era where modern hot hatches are all very similar in spec and power. I'd happily see the BTCC go that way. A grid of Astra VXRs, Megane 275s, Cupra 280s, and the upcoming Civic Type-R with control suspension and a roll cage and then you'd have relatable cars, lower costs and still have decent speed.

Touring cars need to be close to road cars or they become formula cars and that to me isn't what it's all about.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

More details on TC3 are emerging:

http://www.touringcartimes.com/2014/07/21/initial-view-of-new-tc3-series-race-format-and-calendar/

For a series that is not intended to compete with the WTCC, this is sounding a lot like a series that is competing with the WTCC.

 

[Bo]

ROAL have called for a rethink of the Independents structure in WTCC this morning, which I think is sorely needed if it wishes to survive.

 

[Bo]

So...

It's WTCC compensation weight time, and considering Citroen's 'grip so tight on TC1 it's not even funny anymore' performance, this seems a little iffy:

Citroen - +60kg
Chevrolet - +40kg
Honda - +20kg
Lada - 0

I don't think this'll reign in that performance gap any time soon.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Well, 60 kg. Is a lot... I do wish they could stop changing things that were working...

 

[Furinkazen]

Well, 60 kg. Is a lot... I do wish they could stop changing things that were working...

Except WTCC hasn't worked at all this year.

 

[ITCC_Andrew]

Except WTCC hasn't worked at all this year.

I'm referring to 2007 and earlier; when I enjoyed WTCC

 

[mustafur]

WTCC needs to scrap this current formula before it sinks the Series to the ground and just Accept the NGTC formula, it has done wonders for BTCC which IMO is far surpiror in every measurable way to WTCC as it stands.

The fact Independents can stand a chance against factory teams seems evidence enough.

 

[Bo]

The way it's currently being run makes me think they actually want the biggest budgets to prevail, regardless of whether the racing is good or not.

There are some things we have to note about WTCC here:
Horribly expensive set of regs.
Desperately requires some form of testing cap.
The BOP is the worst form of BOP I've ever come across in motorsport.
The grid is horrendously small for a WC, and the multi-class structure is so poorly implemented it's worthless.
Penalty inconsistencies.

I've said from the beginning TC1 was huge mistake. This season, and the botch-job (and bordering blatantly biased) organisation have done nothing but strengthen that thought.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The way it's currently being run makes me think they actually want the biggest budgets to prevail, regardless of whether the racing is good or not.

More likely it's come about because the organisers wanted more manufacturers in their "World" championship, and felt that the series would struggle in comparison to national championships like the BTCC without them.

If they really want to fix the problem, then they should run the series under Group R regulations. Group R might have been created for rallying, but rallying adopted Super 2000 regulations awhile ago, even though Super 2000 was a touring car platform to begin with. Just make TC1 a series for R5 cars, and TC2 a series for R2 and R3. If they're worried about manufacturer involvement, it's not a problem - lots of manufacturers are building R5 cars.

 

[Furinkazen]

More likely it's come about because the organisers wanted more manufacturers in their "World" championship, and felt that the series would struggle in comparison to national championships like the BTCC without them.

If they really want to fix the problem, then they should run the series under Group R regulations. Group R might have been created for rallying, but rallying adopted Super 2000 regulations awhile ago, even though Super 2000 was a touring car platform to begin with. Just make TC1 a series for R5 cars, and TC2 a series for R2 and R3. If they're worried about manufacturer involvement, it's not a problem - lots of manufacturers are building R5 cars.

Is R5 not the reg set where you can use parts from other cars? Remember reading about an R5 Fiesta WRC with Porsche parts in the cockpit in Autosport months back...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is R5 not the reg set where you can use parts from other cars? Remember reading about an R5 Fiesta WRC with Porsche parts in the cockpit in Autosport months back...

Pretty much. It works on the idea of control parts, but with some leeway given for individual development. Provided that it can be used by any car, it should be fine. It gives manufacturers the chance to develop their cars, and private entrants can shop around to be competitive.

 

[Roger the Horse]

If I remember correctly R5 rules state that you can fit cars with any off the shelf parts. I don't know about any other homologation requirements.

 

[SagarisGTB]

WTCC needs to scrap this current formula before it sinks the Series to the ground and just Accept the NGTC formula, it has done wonders for BTCC which IMO is far surpiror in every measurable way to WTCC as it stands.

WTCC clearly has better drivers, visits some great circuits (Spa, Guia, Suzuka, Rio Hondo) and has better stewarding. In WTCC if you punt someone out of the way to overtake, you get a proper penalty like a drive through, not the 2 second BS Plato gets in BTCC.

There is clearly much much wasted potential in WTCC and a new formula is needed, but I'm not sure NGTC is the way to go either. I'm not familiar enough with R5 to comment on that.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Can't see NGTC being adopted into WTCC, the manufacturers won't allow it.

 

[mustafur]

WTCC clearly has better drivers, visits some great circuits (Spa, Guia, Suzuka, Rio Hondo) and has better stewarding. In WTCC if you punt someone out of the way to overtake, you get a proper penalty like a drive through, not the 2 second BS Plato gets in BTCC.

There is clearly much much wasted potential in WTCC and a new formula is needed, but I'm not sure NGTC is the way to go either. I'm not familiar enough with R5 to comment on that.

TBH Jordan, Turkington, Plato, Shedden and Neal would be at the same sort of level as the top drivers in WTCC.

The racing is clearly more rough in BTCC, but thats because there actually is racing, 8 People battling for the lead is common practise on tighter touring car orientated tracks compared to the WTCC borefest.

WTCC sees some great tracks but some of those tracks are designed for faster cars like GTs.

 

[SagarisGTB]

IMO I'd take Muller, Pechito and Huff before any BTCC driver if I was starting a touring car team, only after that I do think it becomes a bit of a wash.

BTCC obviously has better racing, no one will argue with that. WTCC isn't very good, but tracks aren't a problem, the problem is grid sizes and any sort of parity between the cars. The schedule, bar Marrakech and probably Goldenport (the only racing I've seen on that circuit was that very wet GT1 meeting a fair few years ago), is very good for a touring car series. Even Moscow can be good, as shown by the inter-Honda battles this year. BTCC is really no better in that respect. For example, they've tried every variation at Oulton Park without finding much in the way of overtaking.

 

[Furinkazen]

IMO I'd take Muller, Pechito and Huff before any BTCC driver if I was starting a touring car team, only after that I do think it becomes a bit of a wash.

BTCC obviously has better racing, no one will argue with that. WTCC isn't very good, but tracks aren't a problem, the problem is grid sizes and any sort of parity between the cars. The schedule, bar Marrakech and probably Goldenport (the only racing I've seen on that circuit was that very wet GT1 meeting a fair few years ago), is very good for a touring car series. Even Moscow can be good, as shown by the inter-Honda battles this year. BTCC is really no better in that respect. For example, they've tried every variation at Oulton Park without finding much in the way of overtaking.

Muller was one of the dirtiest in BTCC and Huff is a race winner. Most of the current BTCC grid could do well in WTCC. WTCC's issue is the cars are not balanced to create good racing. One reason for why BTCC does get quite physical is because of how close the cars are. WTCC has Spa yes and Macau, but a lot of the tracks are not suited to touring car racing. The Nordschleife - hell of a track but not a touring car one.

 

[SagarisGTB]

I'd say almost any decent racing circuit is suited for touring car racing. A touring car should be versatile. The lack of major aero, low power and ability to take a bit of a beating should mean touring car racing could be good almost anywhere.

The BTCC visits pretty much every decent grade circuit in the UK, they're not picking and choosing really. Some are better than others, but it's the same thing with F3 and GT racing as well. Oulton Park is narrow and has the same overtaking problems no matter who is visiting. Same thing with the WTCC. Moscow, in it's short history, has already provided plenty of dull DTM and WSR races, but because of the lack of aero dependency, the touring cars racing hasn't been bad. Salzburgring is fine, Termas de Rio Hondo is fantastic, Slovakiaring is fine, the full Suzuka should be good. I don't think the WTCC tracks are a problem.

 

[mustafur]

Imo Turkington did more then Enough to prove he is at the Elite level in WTCC considering he was getting top results in basically every race he did in a Independent car well off the pace.

i think when it comes to Tracks BTCC wins easily because basically all the tracks they Visit are Made for cars on their speed, Spa is far too large for WTCC.

BTCC at Knockhill is Like the V8 Supercars at Bathurst its just the perfect storm.

 

[SagarisGTB]

Spa is far too large for WTCC.

Nonsense. Spa is good for good racing with just about anything, especially cars as fast as WTCC cars. The WTCC cars (well, the Citroens at least) were able to do 2'23s there, not far off GT3 or GTE times and considerably faster than Megane Trophies or GT4 cars. And the racing was good for WTCC standards. Spa is fine for touring cars.

 

[mustafur]

Nonsense. Spa is good for good racing with just about anything, especially cars as fast as WTCC cars. The WTCC cars (well, the Citroens at least) were able to do 2'23s there, not far off GT3 or GTE times and considerably faster than Megane Trophies or GT4 cars. And the racing was good for WTCC standards. Spa is fine for touring cars.

The racing might good for WTCC standards but its easily less action packed then the worst BTCC race by a huge margin.

The reason wtcc cars achieve said lap times is the current formula has much more downforce and can match cars which have much faster speed on the striaghts over the lap through corner speed.

The biggest thing hampering WTCC isn't the grid size it's the hugely unequal formula they are using, the cars are not even remotely close and they gap each other quite badly in small races.

GT racing is different because the cars are much more equal then this so that combined with speed makes it more suited.