Toyota Supra (A90)

[Hayden]

Saying you own a MK4 Supra isn’t what I’d consider an outrageous or ludicrous claim. You can still buy a decent NA here for $7K & a Turbo for $15k. Chump change compared to the $300k Supercars that usually end up in that thread.

Logic aside, GTPlanet needs more baked bean pictures

 

[ProjectWHaT]

You can still buy a decent NA here for $7K & a Turbo for $15k. Chump change compared to the $300k Supercars that usually end up in that thread.

Here's a Supra that sold in the US recently for $121,000.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-toyota-supra-19/

Although that was a near mint example. Depending on the transmission and condition, they're selling from $30,000 to $70,000.

https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/supra/

 

[Grandea GTR]

Didn't the Supra change drastically every generation compared to the Skyline, appearance wise?

We don't need the A90 to look like the A80 again.

Well its actually you know, a toyota.

Well, so is this.

 

[Downhill Dino]

We don't need the A90 to look like the A80 again.

The big take away from Supra "enthusiasts".


Besides why the A80 when the A60 is superior.

 

[CarGuru]

You've made me think, what if Toyota does know they can't just bring back the Supra?

Your comparaison to the NSX is spot on, but there is a difference between that and the Supra. The NSX had always had one generation, with not that much difference between the first car from 1991 to the last car from 2005. That's 15 years of the NSX being, in essence, the same car.

The Supra, on the other hand, had various generations, and a shorter life cycle between them. Of course, this ended after the Mk IV as there never was a Mk V. Now it is late to make one without it being compared to its direct predecessor, and of course generally disliked for not "living up to expectations". And while there's a possibility Toyota didn't realize it, I'd say they know. And they made the Mk V anyway.

Now the Mk V is disliked. And most people dislike it for, simply put, existing. And what if that was it's purpose? What if Toyota wanted to bring back the Supra, and decided to pretty much sacrifice its first new generation, so that the next one, the Mk VI, has a smooth road ahead of it? It's possible that by that point only the hardcore, blinded Mk IV fanboys would complain about it. Everyone else would just move on and accept that the Supra is just a name for a sports car, not the specific car that the Mk IV was. So the car would have the reception it deserves, good if it's good, bad if it's bad. No unrealistic expectations, no unnecessary hype, nothing to really kill the car before it's born.

I'm not very knowledgeable in all the things I'd need to be in order to know how realistic that is, but I certainly hope it's the case.

You're definitely right, Toyota no doubt realized that they can't bring back the "perfect Supra" in their current financial state. I believe when Toyota saw all the hype around the MK4 being formed ever since The Fast and the Furious, and noticed how most of them were far from stock, not only were they proud, but also overwhelmed. They knew that if there ever was a successor to come around, they would have the most expectations to fill, probably compared to almost any other sports car successor if you really think about it. It's almost as if they built the FT-1 just to show people that they knew what the true more powerful A90 would be like, despite it not being in their favor financially to develop it (especially with the LC-F in the works).

The car is in a very tough category, and I'm sure it will sell poorly. Therefore however, it will be very underrated. It will take time for people to get used to the Supra, but like you said, if there are newer generations to come, they will progress much better.

 

[McLaren]

BMW has an abysmal track record of reliability in the US. What co-development with BMW tells me and anybody who would buy a Toyota instead of a BMW is that it'll be unreliable, and parts will be expensive.

My, this is embarrassing....

 

[Hayden]

Here's a Supra that sold in the US recently for $121,000.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-toyota-supra-19/

Although that was a near mint example. Depending on the transmission and condition, they're selling from $30,000 to $70,000.

https://bringatrailer.com/toyota/supra/

It’s not surprising that an immaculate, super low KM collector’s car is bringing $120k. I’ll admit it is very impressive just how much the average cars are going up though. They’re still cheap enough here that I personally know quite a few guys who use them as dedicated track cars. Not something I imagine would be happening much in the US with a $30k entry point.

R34 GTRs are experiencing similar insane growth in Japan & Australia. R32s are in a similar vane and 3000GTs are also seeing a pretty strong upward trend.

I guess the guys who grew up on Gran Turismo are starting to come into some money

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't understand what you're not seeing about my point.

Your entire argument is based around what they choose to affix the wheels with. Gotcha.

Re: BMW/Miata, technically I don't own either now, but my concerns as someone who buys cars that were cheap 20 years ago and even cheaper today are irrelevant to someone walking into a Toyota dealership and buying a brand new Supra and worrying about some BMW-stamped part they'll never see.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I've learned from this thread that all cars with lug bolts are bad and all cars with lug studs are good. Good to know.

 

[Tornado]

As i already said, "I purchased it used, From a toyota dealership. Thus the last Toyota ill buy. "

So you're not a Toyota customer. The mint that a salesman made selling you a fifteen year old car is irrelevant to the logo was on the building you bought it from. It's no different to Toyota as a corporation than if I went to my local Toyota dealer and bought this Corvette.

This thing is totally being destroyed on supraforums, you know by actual supra owners that have been begging and whining for a new supra for 25 years ready to throw begs of money at Toyota to get one.

No they weren't. They've been waiting the 25 years to import later spec A80s.

 

[Grandea GTR]

What amazes me about this car is that it truly shows how toxic parts of a car community could be.

"It's too expensive!" "just put a 2JZ" or "It'll be destroyed by the A80" (which, will more than likely not be true if it's a stock one)

However, it's not just car communities either, any kind of community will somewhat end up falling upon itself once the standards have been set so far ahead, either that or the popularity of something from there reaches peak limit...

 

[Silver Arrows]

It really just goes to show the cult that has built up from GT specifically, deifying these JDM cars, and when they come back (R35 GT-R, NSX, now the A90 Supra) they bitch and moan about a car that they'll never own.

 

[Danoff]

What amazes me about this car is that it truly shows how toxic parts of a car community could be.

"It's too expensive!" "just put a 2JZ" or "It'll be destroyed by the A80" (which, will more than likely not be true if it's a stock one)

However, it's not just car communities either, any kind of community will somewhat end up falling upon itself once the standards have been set so far ahead, either that or the popularity of something from there reaches peak limit...

Star Wars, Marvel, Batman, certain sports teams/players of the past, particular songs/music styles, transmissions...

It's a weird thing people do, to get upset at a new piece of art, a new toy, that didn't exist in the world before, and is now suddenly an option to you - because you liked the old one better, which is still an option to you.

"I hate these new electric cars"... ok great... drive a car with an internal combustion engine then. They exist.

 

[Keef]

Counterpoint: Lug bolts have less rotating mass therefore achieve the ultimate driving experience.

I spoke to some guys from my FSAE working in the industry now. On our FSAE car we used lug bolts because they were indeed lighter. The hubs were 7071 aluminum with helicoiled threads for strength, with titanium bolts. That's how you save weight with lug bolts.

But in practicality, especially considering the large, durable parts used by street cars, they said the benefits are two-fold for the company: It's a cost saving measure because the lug stud pressing process is eliminated from production, and it's also a money making measure because it increases the labor time required at dealerships for any process requiring wheel removal.

So it looks like any company using lug studs are actually spending more money to do it for the sake of convenience, while any company using lug bolts are cutting costs to make money, disregarding convenience.

My, this is embarrassing....

Dependability of three year old cars. Cars still well under warranty. I'm not really sure what that proves about long term reliability. This is basically their "initial quality" study plus a few days.

The data at Dashboard Light doesn't corroborate. In fact, what it's showing me is what I know from experience, which is that BMW and other Euro manufacturers - especially Volkswagen *shutters* - are among the worst brands for long-term reliability. Unfortunately I don't have a Consumer Reports subscription, but if you do then I imagine these studies will also corroborate.

Toyota signed up to create the worst car for long-term reliability that they've sold in America since possibly ever. I'd put my money on it.

If you want to, we can talk about how BMW knows that the people who can afford BMWs rarely keep them past their warranty, as they can afford to get new and keep up appearances, while maintaining a JD Power Suggestion of Reliability for a few years. There is virtually no market force compelling BMW to create a car reliable past 100,000 miles because their new-car buyers never keep them that long. To a used car buyer like myself, shopping for BMWs 10 years old, it almost seems like planned obsolescence. There's a reason that BMW and Mercedes both only have a handful of famously reliable cars between them, and none of them were built since either of them established their suburban-premium image in the US.

 

[Tornado]

That's Toyota's target market for the new Supra then? The third/fourth owner who buys it when it crests 100,000 miles?

 

[Keef]

That's Toyota's target market for the new Supra then? The third owner who buys it when it crests 100,000 miles?

I would expect Toyota to consider legacy when selling a new Supra. Not only the legacy of the old one 20 years after it was produced, but the legacy of this current one 20 years from now. Creating a car that will be unreliable in the future is a good way to ruin a legacy over time.

Their entire brand image in the US relies on them being a known quantity of reliability. Tarnishing that would be bad for business.

 

[Tornado]

Is the A80 a car well known for its exceptional reliability? Because absolutely none of its direct competitors were, but people still adore the Z32 and FD.


Incidentally, I looked at that link you provided about how BMW being one of the worst brands for long-term reliability:

Seems that a lot of that is pretty weighted towards the cars filled with gimmicky cutting edge stuff that would break all the time, which looks like it drags the entire brand down.







But what's that car on the top of the list?

Huh.






What's the next target you want to aim at?

 

[Keef]

Well I can't argue with that, that's pretty impressive. For some reason, their convertible sports car has always been notably more reliable than the rest of the fleet. I'm curious how much that has to do with the lower mileage of a sports car, but either way that's a pretty stark difference from the majority of the cars they sell.

Hopefully for Toyota's sake, their Z4 is just as reliable.

 

[CarGuru]

My, this is embarrassing....

Lol JD Power is a scam, its basically an advertising firm. They get paid to say whatever they want. The so called "sample" or "people surveyed" could even be just a very small group of people or someone who works for the company.

 

[McLaren]

Lol JD Power is a scam, its basically an advertising firm. They get paid to say whatever they want. The so called "sample" or "people surveyed" could even be just a very small group of people or someone who works for the company.

So you can provide proof of this and explain its why BMW & Toyota are rated equally?

 

[Supaboost]

Toyota is in an impossible situation trying to make the best of it.

For about 10 years now there has been non-stop criticism of Toyota for building nothing but appliances. They are still a wildly successful car maker by most standards and could probably ignore the critics and just keep making their apocalypse-proof vehicles. Instead they've sought to prove the critics wrong, but they aren't going into it as a suicide mission, they want to make money, as would any responsible business. They don't have a sports car capable platform and building one for such a low volume product is a bad business decision. So they partner with Subaru to make the GT86 and BMW for the Supra.

Regarding the Supra specifically. It's obvious Toyota wants to make a sports car for this segment, and it should have been obvious since the earliest information that it would be effectively a re-skinned BMW. It's a fairly valid criticism. But saying it shouldn't have the Supra name is so non-nonsensical that I can't really understand it as a rational argument. You're basically asking Toyota to step into the ring against the likes of the C7 Corvette, 718 Cayman, and Alpine A110 with a $50,000 Toyota-branded product NOT called the Supra. There is no way Toyota executives could allow that to happen. It's either the Supra or it doesn't exist.

The new Supra is probably, honestly, the very best we could have hoped for IMO. I still don't like the way it looks so much, but calling it sacrilege just seems so strange to me. To say it doesn't deserve the Supra name (or whatever) is effectively saying Toyota shouldn't be building it at all, which I disagree with vehemently. We need MORE sports cars, not less.

On the contrary they were in the perfect position. Video games social media movies, thanks to those people know the Supra name and wanted one. All they had to do is live up to its name.

It shouldn't be called a Supra because no worthy car maker with respect and appreciation towards their enthusiasts lets their competition build their halo cars. It be fine as a new FRS GT or Celica, but not a Supra who was a engineering marvel from toyota their greatest halo car. Better it doesn't exist then as a 99% bmw parts bin abomination.

50k would be the entry edition, 80/100k for a real Supra would be fine. A100k ft1 Supra would smash those car and live up to the expectations of challenging the Gtr and NSX. Or even better none would really mind if it shared the platform with a reborn celica, the celica the lower costing one and the Supra the expensive one, at least that would fit its heritage.

 

[CarGuru]

So you can provide proof of this and explain its why BMW & Toyota are rated equally?

https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/11/27/18105479/jd-power-car-commercials

https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/can-you-trust-those-awards-you-see-in-auto-ads/



There's a lot more sources you can read up on as well. Therefore, it would explain why BMW and Toyota are rated equally, but more importantly why you see those ridiculous Chevy commercials that say they use "real people".

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

On the contrary they were in the perfect position. Video games social media movies, thanks to those people know the Supra name and wanted one. All they had to do is live up to its name.

It shouldn't be called a Supra because no worthy car maker with respect and appreciation towards their enthusiasts lets their competition build their halo cars. It be fine as a new FRS GT or Celica, but not a Supra who was a engineering marvel from toyota their greatest halo car. Better it doesn't exist then as a 99% bmw parts bin abomination.

50k would be the entry edition, 80/100k for a real Supra would be fine. A100k ft1 Supra would smash those car and live up to the expectations of challenging the Gtr and NSX. Or even better none would really mind if it shared the platform with a reborn celica, the celica the lower costing one and the Supra the expensive one, at least that would fit its heritage.

The only response I can really think of is:

 

[Supaboost]

The only response I can really think of is:

That's my response to most of you since its clear you all got little to no experience with this car or sports cars in general. Read some old mags or watch those old video tests, mkiv was overwhelmingly praised for its engineering at the time. Maybe i'm old nuff to actually have lived it. One of the few sequential turbo systems that not only worked perfectly but was reliable as a tank. Not to mention the high speed aerodynamics and use of light material for its time and reliability when beat on like no other car.

 

[JrDarknes]

Lol JD Power is a scam, its basically an advertising firm. They get paid to say whatever they want. The so called "sample" or "people surveyed" could even be just a very small group of people or someone who works for the company.

Yea, I've heard this from so many people and many different forums. I personally would not trust their list at all. I do hope the supra is reliable though.

 

[Silver Arrows]

That's my response to most of you since its clear you all got little to no experience with this car or sports cars in general. Read some old mags or watch those old video tests, mkiv was overwhelmingly praised for its engineering at the time. Maybe i'm old nuff to actually have lived it. One of the few sequential turbo systems that not only worked perfectly but was reliable as a tank. Not to mention the high speed aerodynamics and use of light material for its time and reliability when beat on like no other car.

So hey - gonna post any proof that you even own a MK.IV Supra?

This is what makes the entire discourse about the A90 Supra so unbearable - you have JDM fans pissed off at the fact that their golden goose car is either not just the A80 again, or is a new Supra with BMW parts.

Same sort of thing when the R35 GT-R was designed as a supercar from the jump. Same sort of the thing when the NSX had a hybrid system inside of it. Guess what? Cars change. Stop living in 1999 and join the now.

 

[Supaboost]

So hey - gonna post any proof that you even own a MK.IV Supra?

This is what makes the entire discourse about the A90 Supra so unbearable - you have JDM fans pissed off at the fact that their golden goose car is either not just the A80 again, or is a new Supra with BMW parts.

Same sort of thing when the R35 GT-R was designed as a supercar from the jump. Same sort of the thing when the NSX had a hybrid system inside of it. Guess what? Cars change. Stop living in 1999 and join the now.

Sure, will all of you post what you drive to show your life experience in sports car matters ?

At least those cars maintained their place in the pecking order, new Supra now not a GTR competition but comp for the 35k mustang lol.

Yes lets change things, like going from 320hp to 335hp in 25 years.... ohh... ok.

Well i guess not so much change after all.

 

[Blood Eagle]

Sure, will all of you post what you drive to show your life experience in sports car matters?

All we are asking for is a pic of the car with either a can of beans on the hood or a handwritten note with your username in the picture. Or maybe both for good measure. We believe you aren't being truthful about owning the car and starting off your membership under false pretences. This is the time to either prove it or rage quit and leave the site. I don't make the rules lol

 

[Supaboost]

All we are asking for is a pic of the car with either a can of beans on the hood or a handwritten note with your username in the picture. Or maybe both for good measure. We believe you aren't being truthful about owning the car and starting off your membership under false pretences. This is the time to either prove it or rage quit and leave the site. I don't make the rules lol

You all act like i'm claiming i own a F40 or something .
Its ok i love proving people wrong.

 

[Sage Ages]

You all act like i'm claiming i own a F40 or something .
Its ok i love proving people wrong.

In this day and age, a Supra might as well be an F40. We're aware that there isn't necessarily any obligation to prove yourself, but you know damn well no one is gonna believe you or take you seriously otherwise.