Toyota Supra (A90)

[Supaboost]

All these comparisons to the FT-1 has me wondering if people have never noticed concept cars that precede production models have exaggerated features...



The bean-counters, probably.



Er, no. If the Supra rang in at twice its upcoming price, less people would be able to afford it than now.





That's exactly what you're against, you're complaining this one isn't expensive and unobtainable enough.

It only works for the Stang Vett hell even 911.

The new 911 will start at over $100k. That's admittedly for the S, but considering the current basic 991.2 is $91k, I don't expect much change from 100 grand for the next one. The days of a five-figure new 911 are numbered.



I mean, when we stop and think about it, I'm not sure why anybody ever questioned the A80 ownership. An obsession with horsepower and quarter mile times? It's a few shouts of "2JZ" away from the natural state![/QUOTE]

Yet they them selves had no problem truing the Lexus LF-LC Concept into reality. Go figure.

Bean counters need to pull their head's out their collective ass, the middle class is bigger now then ever in history.

I'm against there ONLY being a slow cheap Supra, i don't care if they sale you a 30k 200hp Supra if i get my Ft1 500hp Gtr/Zo6 fighting Supra.

91k to what 250k 300k ???

Porsche gets it, give the average guy a attainable 911 because maybe 10 or 15 years later he may be buying that half million dollar version. Toyota are idiots or just conservative cowards.

I agree with this up until the last few years. Once Nissan saw how widely loved the GTR became, they definitely kicked up the price. I believe it was around $72,000 when it first arrived, now they’re $100,000, $110,000, and $130,000. They’ve definitely cemented that car in the supercar ranks.

Since when is 100k a super car ? serious sports car for sure but come on supercars for 100k lol no. I freaking wish.

I thought we were old and cynical enough to realize that concept cars aren't usually representative of the final model of the car in question. I don't know what we expected really when we knew many years in advance what the Supra might be and with the 15000 leaks what it would actually turn out to be.

Concept

Production

 

[Silver Arrows]

How does that Brand Nubian song go again?

'Punks jump up to get beat down?'

That seems to be the theme of this thread going by the one guy trying valiantly to defend the honor of a car from 1998 and presenting it as the best thing since sliced bread, and thus being sat back down by people who actually know what they are talking about, and not just using a burner account to defend the honor of their favorite JDM sports car.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Yet they them selves had no problem truing the Lexus LF-LC Concept into reality. Go figure.

concept cars aren't usually representative of the final model of the car in question.

 

[sparkytooth]

Concept

Production

You sure got me there by ignoring the second part of my post. Also by ignoring the previous actually based on the supra concept cars and leaks and oh my god so many leaks.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Also, don't forget that the "one-and-only, truly legendary" A80 itself wasn't a stranger to looking completely different from concepts.

 

[Supaboost]

How does that Brand Nubian song go again?

'Punks jump up to get beat down?'

That seems to be the theme of this thread going by the one guy trying valiantly to defend the honor of a car from 1998 and presenting it as the best thing since sliced bread, and thus being sat back down by people who actually know what they are talking about, and not just using a burner account to defend the honor of their favorite JDM sports car.

Mkiv is a legend and what it did is now written history. 90s sports cars don't appreciate in value to over 100k for no reason. I especially don't mind my mkiv gaining 20k in value in a few short years

its most of you defending a bastardized z4 masquerading as a Toyota lol

 

[Grandea GTR]

we are just going in circles and circles with this topic.

 

[Tornado]

Mkiv is a legend and what it did is now written history.

Win some comparison tests.
Flop on the marketplace.
Appear in a movie.

 

[McLaren]

Bean counters need to pull their head's out their collective ass, the middle class is bigger now then ever in history.

Ah, the same bean counters who keep manufacturers afloat?

Since when is 100k a super car ? serious sports car for sure but come on supercars for 100k lol no. I freaking wish.

It has appreciated like a supercar and performs like a supercar. Debating price as definition for supercar is a beaten horse.

Concept

Production

I’ve worked for Lexus the last 6.5 years. That LC concept was never intended for production. They only built it bc of the overwhelming demand.

Thanks for playing.

 

[sparkytooth]

Win some comparison tests.
Flop on the marketplace.
Appear in a movie.

Hey atleast this one's success isn't also attributed to a dead man

Wait...

 

[Silver Arrows]

Sometimes I wish GT never came out, so we would never have had a generation of people deifying Japanese sports cars they probably never would have heard about otherwise.

 

[sparkytooth]

Sometimes I wish GT never came out, so we would never have had a generation of people deifying Japanese sports cars they probably never would have heard about otherwise.

It was gonna happen eventually with the advent of the internet age. I don't think PD ever anticipated that cars they just found regular and normal in Japan that was all they really had access to to put in the game would explode in popularity like that, or even the game itself. Turns out they were appealing cars I guess and curiosity eventually became obsession.

 

[Silver Arrows]

It was gonna happen eventually with the advent of the internet age. I don't think PD ever anticipated that cars they just found regular and normal in Japan that was all they really had access to to put in the game would explode in popularity like that, or even the game itself. Turns out they were appealing cars I guess and curiosity eventually became obsession.

True. But GT, and to the more high marquee JDM sports cars, F&F, have had fans massively overinflate and hype up their legacy, sometimes to the detriment of the brand. We saw that with the NSX, and we are seeing it right now with people like Supaboost ******** themselves that the A90 isn't just the A80 again.

 

[05XR8]

Totally missed my post of Gazoo Racing may make a hotter A90.

Anyway, cool video of the Supra on the freeway. Love that color. It'll probably be the "Seoul/Soul Red" of this model.

 

[homeforsummer]

Concept

Production

That's not a great comparison.

There are two types of concept cars that eventually make "production". The first are visual concepts only, designed to give a flavour of what the eventual production car may one day look similar to.

The other type - that Lexus (indeed, many Lexus concepts) being one, is where the production car's styling (and probably many other attributes) is already set in stone, and the "concept" is more like a slightly jazzed-up production car to stir up press shortly ahead of launch.

BMW does this a lot. Remember this?

That's the 2007 BMW M3 Concept. No, really, it's not the production car. I mean, it is, but technically it's the concept and probably didn't move under its own steam. The Range Rover LRX (later the Evoque) was similar, as was the original Audi TT concept, which basically just gained a couple of quarter windows for production.

The original Porsche Boxster Concept was rather different - more like the Supra. The concept had the look and feel of the production car, but it was a true concept - the production car was significantly toned down and had to work with proportions dictated by production constraints and tooling. So it went from this sleek, 550 Spyder-esque thing:

...to the slightly dumpy production car we actually got. You can obviously see the visual similarities (as you can with the FT-1 against the production Supra) but the end result was necessarily toned down. And it's very different from the way something like the Lexus LC was revealed as a "concept".

​

The bottom line is that it's not always possible for manufacturers to simply put a "concept" into production. If a production car looks like its concept, that's generally because the company basically turned a production car into a concept with some fancy trim so they could show it off at an auto show.

 

[TexRex]

OT, I know, but I forgot how stunning the Boxster Concept was. I think that was the first instance where I experienced a significant real-time letdown as a result of a concept transitioning to production--and it seems most of what makes it so stunning would have been easy to realize, specifically that shapely bodywork.

And if you'd described to me "rose bronze wheel faces and trim pieces"...well I don't know how I'd have responded but it certainly wouldn't have been as favorably as to what ended up being presented.

 

[homeforsummer]

OT, I know, but I forgot how stunning the Boxster Concept was. I think that was the first instance where I experienced a significant real-time letdown as a result of a concept transitioning to production--and it seems most of what makes it so stunning would have been easy to realize, specifically that shapely bodywork.

I think, as per the FT-1/Supra comparison, it was dictated by platform and parts bin. Several panels were shared with the 996 remember (Porsche wasn't exactly flush with cash in the mid-90s) as well as (I believe) a lot of front-end architecture, so Porsche was limited in the final product. It's just the realities of car building, and manufacturers need to be even more careful as a rule today than they had to be back then - something people complaining that it's not a spitting-image recreation of the FT-1 would do well to understand.

 

[TexRex]

I think, as per the FT-1/Supra comparison, it was dictated by platform and parts bin. Several panels were shared with the 996 remember (Porsche wasn't exactly flush with cash in the mid-90s) as well as (I believe) a lot of front-end architecture, so Porsche was limited in the final product. It's just the realities of car building, and manufacturers need to be even more careful as a rule today than they had to be back then - something people complaining that it's not a spitting-image recreation of the FT-1 would do well to understand.

Of course, the development of new models (new generations, even) from concepts isn't as cut-and-dry as one might think, even without financial constraints...though those certainly come into play as the process is spectacularly expensive. I was actually only observing the concept's exterior form when addressing how production-ready it seemed.

That said, my comments weren't intended to have any sort of tie-in with ongoing discussion, and I probably should have posted elsewhere, tagging you to give credit for the reminder.

More on-topic, I wonder what percentage of concepts are actually conceived with some form of production even in consideration.

 

[homeforsummer]

More on-topic, I wonder what percentage of concepts are actually conceived with some form of production even in consideration.

I think it's pretty loose. I expect Toyota knew it would be producing a Supra when it showed off the FT-1 (had it officially announced anything back in early 2014? I can't recall), but with five years between concept and production car the production Supra was probably at such an early stage of development - if in development at all beyond the drawing board - that the realities of it sharing a platform probably weren't a consideration. Hence the big dramatic proportions that haven't ended up on the production car.

But to keep the Toyota talk on-topic, something like the Kikai from the 2015 Tokyo show is very clearly a car with no production likelihood whatsoever.

It's the S-FR from the same show that still confuses me, as that concept looked and felt far closer to production in terms of its details and materials than anything we've seen between the FT-1 and the production Supra, yet other than the racing concept there's been no mention of it since. You have concepts that are clearly intended for production, concepts that clearly aren't, but the S-FR is the only example I can recall of a concept that looked almost certain for production yet disappeared without a trace...

Ultimately though it's what I love about the very idea of concept cars. They're pure expressions by designers and engineers of what cars could, in theory, be like, with little concern for the realities of production.

Edit:

I've just discovered that my post way back in 2011 when a next-gen Supra was first rumoured really hasn't aged well

On the plus side, if people are complaining about it now, just imagine the uproar if it really had been a hybrid.

 

[Tornado]

That's not a great comparison.

There are two types of concept cars that eventually make "production". The first are visual concepts only, designed to give a flavour of what the eventual production car may one day look similar to.

The other type - that Lexus (indeed, many Lexus concepts) being one, is where the production car's styling (and probably many other attributes) is already set in stone, and the "concept" is more like a slightly jazzed-up production car to stir up press shortly ahead of launch.

BMW does this a lot. Remember this?

View attachment 795486​

That's the 2007 BMW M3 Concept. No, really, it's not the production car. I mean, it is, but technically it's the concept and probably didn't move under its own steam. The Range Rover LRX (later the Evoque) was similar, as was the original Audi TT concept, which basically just gained a couple of quarter windows for production.

The original Porsche Boxster Concept was rather different - more like the Supra. The concept had the look and feel of the production car, but it was a true concept - the production car was significantly toned down and had to work with proportions dictated by production constraints and tooling. So it went from this sleek, 550 Spyder-esque thing:

View attachment 795487​

...to the slightly dumpy production car we actually got. You can obviously see the visual similarities (as you can with the FT-1 against the production Supra) but the end result was necessarily toned down. And it's very different from the way something like the Lexus LC was revealed as a "concept".

View attachment 795488
​

The bottom line is that it's not always possible for manufacturers to simply put a "concept" into production. If a production car looks like its concept, that's generally because the company basically turned a production car into a concept with some fancy trim so they could show it off at an auto show.

And before he shoots back at you with some random example of "but car X looked exactly like the concept" it should be pointed out that one off concepts that made it virtually unscathed to production, stuff that gets produced due to wild and unexpected demand and deposits, are rarely actually good or long lasting once the initial flurry is over. The production Viper looked almost exactly like the concept and was a great car... eventually, after Chrysler put 4 more years of development into it following its debut. The Veyron hit the ground running from its 1999 concept... after Volkswagen threw functionally unlimited money at it to overcome all the problems they were having making its design functional.

 

[homeforsummer]

The Veyron hit the ground running from its 1999 concept... after Volkswagen threw functionally unlimited money at it to overcome all the problems they were having making its design functional.

Yeah, the Veyron was a bit of a case of engineers going, "oh crap wait, you actually want us to build it like that too?"

 

[05XR8]

Here's a quote with links from when Toyota were talking to BMW in 2013. Also the Mazda designer collab with Toyota/Subaru.

It wasn't so much about Toyota buying into Mazda/Mazda buying into Toyota. Just running through some Australian articles. These are a couple years ago

https://www.wheelsmag.com.au/features/1508/ten-things-you-didn’t-know-about-the-mazda-mx-5


mazda-mx-5-under-the-microscope

From 2013, talks about the Subaru/Toyota collab(and BMW)

https://ichitaka05.wordpress.com/tag/mazda/

 

[Disco_Volante]

Damn if you don't visit this thread every ten minutes you get lost when you eventually come back

View attachment 795487​

Holy cow that is absolutely stunning

Anyways, about the Supra, I've been thinking, has there been any talk about racing, other than Super GT and NASCAR? It seems like a pretty good fit for GT3.

 

[05XR8]

Damn if you don't visit this thread every ten minutes you get lost when you eventually come back

Holy cow that is absolutely stunning

Anyways, about the Supra, I've been thinking, has there been any talk about racing, other than Super GT and NASCAR? It seems like a pretty good fit for GT3.

The car in GT Sport is based on GTE specs. Maybe that is in the works. A GT3 car would make sense as well. It'd probably be Z4 GT3 size. I'd love there to be a GT4 version.

 

[Supaboost]

Ah, the same bean counters who keep manufacturers afloat?

It has appreciated like a supercar and performs like a supercar. Debating price as definition for supercar is a beaten horse.

I’ve worked for Lexus the last 6.5 years. That LC concept was never intended for production. They only built it bc of the overwhelming demand.

Thanks for playing.

Its hilarious seeing regular people potential customers defend a corporation and their financials, one with 50 billion in the bank.

So there was no demand for the Ft1 ehh ? What there truly was demand for is a mediocre overpriced toyota badged bmw, well ill be dammed.

Win some comparison tests.
Flop on the marketplace.
Appear in a movie.

You just described many automotive legends.

So you prefer the Mighty MKv

Be what no one ever asked for or wanted.
Be 10k overpriced to your rivals. (thanks bimmer)
Be slower then nearly all your competition.

Totally missed my post of Gazoo Racing may make a hotter A90.

May, maybe. Big whoop. Iv seen what they do, a body kit and some minuscule power bumps. The masters of this platform already said there will be no M version. Though maybe bmw may allow toyota to release the mkv with the b58s stock 380hp.

 

[TS050]

I don't think I've ever seen so many people be so mad and make such a big deal about one car

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I don't think I've ever seen so many people be so mad and make such a big deal about one car

Toxic Fandom.

It's interesting that I don't remember too many folks (admittedly, the internet wasn't anything like it is today) giving Nissan such a hard time when they released the 350z. It had less power, was less tech-obsessed, and was a slightly different concept generally from the 300zx it succeeded. It served as a kind of reset for the Z brand. It went from a powerhouse super gt type car (a completely extinct category, I would argue, that included the MKIV Supra) to a far more simple and raw package. But nobody is buying that strand of sports car anymore. Ask Nissan or Toyota.

Toyota has gone a different direction, instead looking upmarket to position the Supra as a sophisticated, instagrammable, luxurious sports car experience as an alternative to a Porsche Cayman. More than any other car, I think this is Toyota's target. I struggle to see the Supra working for any other segment. Nissan and Acura don't seem to be finding many buyers in the $100k+ club, because people at that price point want a fancy badge for their conspicuous lifestyle. And besides, the Lexus LC occupies that end of the scale for Toyota. The GT86 exerts a lot of pressure from the ~$30k bracket too. So the $50k price point seems about right. I think 400hp would be more appropriate and I do wish it looked better, but again going back to the Cayman, it actually starts to look like pretty decent value. I think they've pretty much fit the Supra's badge into the slot that best fits it for this world in the year 2019. It's the Porsche Cayman for people who like to say "smash that subscribe button".

@Supaboost times change man.

 

[Silver Arrows]

times change

Something that the fans of the 90's JDM sports cars fail to realize, if we're going by the reception from the R35, from the reception of the NSX, and now to the reception of the A90.

 

[Tornado]

So you prefer the Mighty MK

The only Supra I have any preference for is the A60.

Be what no one ever asked for or wanted.

You mean whiny people on A80 forums, including those who make three dozen posts on unrelated forums they joined purely to bitch about it even though they "couldn't care less," never asked for or wanted.

Be 10k overpriced to your rivals. (thanks bimmer)

You mean like the Supra was for every year of its life except for 1993, 1994, 1997 and 1998.

Be slower then nearly all your competition.

You mean like the Supra was for every year of its life except for 1993-1996.

 

[Grandea GTR]

Someone can't let go of the 90s it seems. As others have said, things change.
I for one never understood the overhyped for the A80, why it's more or less pegged as a sort of "messiah" Toyota.

I suppose the same could be said for the 2JZ?

If there was any Supra I really cared about it would be the A70.

The design is kinda growing on me now, slowly beginning to dig it a bit more. I preferred the FT-1 for how the body design flowed, but considering that the work has already been done and they won't do anything else about it, it's a solid design, job well done.

The B58 engine has a lot of expectations to reach, but given how it's built, it can probably hit most desirable power figures not too badly.