Toyota Supra (A90)

[05XR8]

Yeah, still not good enough. Right? Oh well. Maybe the retro model A100.

Yeah, staying on the track. Toyota did an excellent job in bringing the Supra back. For the CEO to actually want it done, regardless of the accountants and lawyers and shareholders, says lots.

 

[Hayden]

My take on all of this is...

>The GTR market is too hard to compete in due to..
- Lower cost competitors (Vette, GT350, ETC)
- Cannibalism (Lexus)
- Badge snobbery (Porsche, Audi, Merc, BMW competitors)
- Pricing it out of reach (most fans can’t afford $100k car. No matter how much they like it or talk it up on the internet.)
- Low sales return for massive initial outlay (bespoke chassis).


>The lower market is sorted with the GT86.
- Great car for the price and it is acting as a feeder, with many owners now considering the step up to Supra.

>Which forces it into it’s current category.
- Looks wise, the concept would never work at this price point and needed to be toned down (safety, practicality, simplicity of production, mass-appeal, room for special editions & aftermarket.)
- Performance wise, with a couple arguable exceptions, it’s on the mark of its competitors
- Affordability wise, it’s an accessible dream car for the GT generation and a viable choice for the typical gentleman sports car buyer
- Reputation wise, it’s been trashed- to hell and back- by people who haven’t even seen one in person, much less driven it.

It’s 2019, not the golden financial era that birthed the Gran Turismo generation of sports cars. Manufacturers don’t have money to create a halo car at a loss. Especially for a brand that isn’t even upmarket to begin with.

“We will sell a few hundred $100k Supras a year; at a loss of $2k each, in the hope that a few more people buy a Corolla or GT86... which we make a few hundred bucks on each.”

I love cars, the A70 & A80 inclusive; but if I were in that board room, i’d suggest a move downmarket, and a partnership (like the brilliant one with Subaru) to make it a more attractive proposal.

Personally I see the A90 as a more than deserving successor. In a world where Evo & 3000GT is dead, STI is leaving your market, Z has gone untouched for a decade, GT86 is too slow and NSX & GTR are unobtainably expensive; the average guy can still buy a fast, good looking, fun to drive and exciting Japanese sports car brand new from the dealer.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Lexus is primarily the reason why I'm not the most hung up about the Supra aiming for the lower powered sports car market versus the higher end sports car market. or being a GT car like in the past. I sometimes ask myself why Toyota hasn't released any fun cars in the recent years outside the GT-86, then I realized that I forgot that Lexus still exists and they have the RC & LC.

The Supra seemed to be a GT car in the past due to Lexus not being a thing yet when the MK.1-MK.3 Supras were each released. Lexus only entered the picture during the midst of the A70's production cycle.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Yes 3 cars that kept gaining performance each iteration, mkv is 5 steps backyards. Its basically what the FRs should have been. Maybe we can get leaf springs in the next mustang.

How is it a step backwards when it's more powerful and lighter than what came before?

You are the one that chose to do your little comparison using 0-60, i have no doubt that a 50k camaro or base vett smokes the Supra on a track. Power to weight is not in the mkvs favor no matter how much you wish other wise.

Power-to-weight ratios didn't favour the GT-R either when it started taking supercar scalps at the 'Ring. And yes, I acknowledge 'Ring lap time comparisons are inherently silly.

Your desperate need to defend this flop is in priceless delusion territory.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15142755/toyota-supra-turbo-instrumented-test/

1993 Mkiv 4.6
2019 mkv - 4.3

lmao yahh So much faster, and that's with a modern automatic and modern tires.

Wait, so you're dismissing 0.3 seconds to 0-60 (again, the one metric you seem obsessed with), but have repeatedly referred to the Vette's performance as dominant, when the gap between it and the Supra is... 0.4s?

got reading compensation issues ehh.

I wish — does it pay well?

 

[Tornado]

Where did i say that ?

When you claimed that a 4.6 0-60/13.1 and109 mph quarter mile was indicative of how fast an A80 Turbo actually was; as opposed to being a single notably fast preproduction car.


Which is still slower than the A90 is claimed to be, amusingly.

got reading compensation issues ehh.

I have already asked you if that was your problem, yes. When you're having this much difficulty keeping even your own posts straight, it's seeming increasingly likely.

 

[Supaboost]

How is it a step backwards when it's more powerful and lighter than what came before?

Power-to-weight ratios didn't favour the GT-R either when it started taking supercar scalps at the 'Ring. And yes, I acknowledge 'Ring lap time comparisons are inherently silly.

Wait, so you're dismissing 0.3 seconds to 0-60 (again, the one metric you seem obsessed with), but have repeatedly referred to the Vette's performance as dominant, when the gap between it and the Supra is... 0.4s?

I wish — does it pay well?

25 years for 15 hp lol, and what 50lbs lighter.

GTR had proven awd and power, this has what going for it ahh you must mean a convertible's chassis and a run of the mill bmw engine.

I'm not obsessed with 06 its just some bs you all spew, mkiv could out handle the freaking rx7 and nsx as i said before. But you all seem to avoid that.

25 years for a 0.3 seconds faster.

A base Vett a 7 year old design will embarrasses this car. But at least its a Vett, camaros and mustangs will expose it for the joke that it really is.

Tell me how much more capable is a M3 or Vett then its 25 years old version.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

25 years for 15 hp lol, and what 50lbs lighter.

GTR had proven awd and power, this has what going for it ahh you must mean a convertible's chassis and a run of the mill bmw engine.

I'm not obsessed with 06 its just some bs you all spew, mkiv could out handle the freaking rx7 and nsx as i said before. But you all seem to avoid that.

25 years for a 0.3 seconds faster.

A base Vett a 7 year old design will embarrasses this car. But at least its a Vett, camaros and mustangs will expose it for the joke that it really is.

Tell me how much more capable is a M3 or Vett then its 25 years old version.

Yeah, but the MKV is better than the MKIV.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Tell me how much more capable is a M3 or Vett then its 25 years old version.

Not sure if you've ever noticed but pretty much everytime a new M car comes out, half the fan base refuse to accept it's better than an earlier one!

 

[Supaboost]

Not sure if you've ever noticed but pretty much everytime a new M car comes out, half the fan base refuse to accept it's better than an earlier one!

Yahh they do, that is until the lease is up.

I doubt they be happy buying a toyota based M3/4

 

[Sage Ages]

why not a Shelby gt350 which at 59k a mere 7k more, or M2 at 58.9 ?

You must be great at math.

1993 Mkiv 4.6
2019 mkv - 4.3

lmao yahh So much faster, and that's with a modern automatic and modern tires.

And yet you think the 0.1-0.2 seconds between an A90 and a Stingray is a huge difference.

Power to weight is not in the mkvs favor no matter how much you wish other wise.

While power-to-weight is a useful metric, it rarely tells the full story of how a car handles. It all comes down to where that weight is located (something that the Corvette actually does pretty well, which I'm surprised you haven't mentioned), and the design of the chassis and suspension.


Of course, until we actually see some tests and real-world numbers, all of this is nothing more than speculation.

 

[Supaboost]

You must be great at math.

And yet you think the 0.1-0.2 seconds between an A90 and a Stingray is a huge difference.

While power-to-weight is a useful metric, it rarely tells the full story of how a car handles. It all comes down to where that weight is located (something that the Corvette actually does pretty well, which I'm surprised you haven't mentioned), and the design of the chassis and suspension.

Of course, until we actually see some tests and real-world numbers, all of this is nothing more than speculation.

The manual Vett is faster, the auto even more faster. Vett will shame it on a track i fully expect this. God damn thats a hell of a car and from gm of all places, just may have to get one and maul some bmyotas z4s lol.

 

[Sage Ages]

The Corvette is a bit faster, but it's still more expensive than the Supra, and the one that you really want is clocking north of $60k. If anything, I'm more curious how the 1LE Camaro stacks up.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Z has gone untouched for a decade

Soon...

 

[Disco_Volante]

Soon...

I am almost as hyped for the new Z as I was for the Supra. I really can't wait, as someone born on late 1999 the 370Z has existed for more than half my life. I really hope that "soon" isn't a PD "soon"

Back on the Supra, does anyone know what colors will be available on it? We've seen red, yellow and grey, and it's safe to assume the usual colors (black, white, blue, dark-ish green) will be available too, right? And interior, I assume black, red and tan. I hope the latter is available, one of my favourite specs for cars is blue exterior with tan interior. I think it'd fit the Supra rather well.

 

[Hayden]

Soon...

Great to hear 👍
If it’s a 2+2 I may just be interested

 

[McLaren]

Don't buy into bs pr, focused on handling is just an excuse for lack of power. This is not a miata its supposed to be a Supra. Good luck out handling the Vett or do you honestly think it will out handle the Vett ?

Wait and see like you've been told multiple times. Horsepower doesn't dictate wins on a track that doesn't end in 15 seconds....

This just show how out of touch they are, these days the stang and camaro have hardcore track versions with handling that rival super cars.

Yeah, that cost over double the price of the base car....

Base Mustang: $26,395
GT350: $59,140

Base Camaro: $25,000
ZL1: $64,195

Power and handling are a given these days for a serious sports car.

The British would disagree; Lotus, Ariel, Radical, BAC, Caterham, all sports car makers that build track monsters that don't rely on power to deliver competitive cars.

And as you say your self a Lexus would better appeal to the cayman market. Id say more will cross shop a chevy and a toyota then a toyota and Porsche lol.

Lexus doesn't build anything that rivals the Cayman.

If they wanted a lower category sports car just call the damn thing a celica or come up with a new name. It would fit their heritage and leave space to create a proper Supra on the same platform. You don't see M Amg Gtr vett Stang Camaro ex going backwards.

Mercedes AMG once put their badge on a minivan and offer AMG wanna-be packages to base cars.

I just don't see the LCF competing with he GTR, though that rumored v8 tt could be interesting.

First thing you've said that's actually right. The LC-F isn't really projected to be a track monster like the GTR.

I have no issue with a proper Supra at 100k, most of you do.

None of us do. What we're smart enough to realize is why Toyota picked the market it's in, however.

I'm not obsessed with 06 its just some bs you all spew, mkiv could out handle the freaking rx7 and nsx as i said before. But you all seem to avoid that.

25 years for a 0.3 seconds faster.

For someone claiming others spew BS, it's hilarious you follow it with a BS claim of your own.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Soon...

So, Nissan is releasing a new trim level of the 370Z? Some kind of ultimate edition I'm guessing.

 

[CodeRedR51]

So, Nissan is releasing a new trim level of the 370Z? Some kind of ultimate edition I'm guessing.

If a whole new car is a new trim level, sure.

 

[kikie]

Let's hope Toyota is not reading a particularly heated discussion or they will cancel the A90 and start all over again.

 

[UltimateYosh]

Let's hope Toyota is not reading a particularly heated discussion or they will cancel the A90 and start all over again.

Why would they scrap a car they invested a whole lot of money in, because people complained about it on the internet?

 

[Danoff]

I'm not obsessed with 06 its just some bs you all spew, mkiv could out handle the freaking rx7 and nsx as i said before. But you all seem to avoid that.

Really? They did a bunch of races (in japanese) against various versions of those cars. I saw one with an NSX-R, one with a regular NSX manual, and one with an NSX automatic, and the RX7 was featured in all of those videos as well, and the MKIV supra. And... I don't remember the supra topping either the RX7 or the NSX. Did you have a source for that claim? Maybe I missed it in this thread, I'll check.

Edit:

I mean, if the handling was equivalent, you would think the power advantage would make it a winner.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Really? They did a bunch of races (in japanese) against various versions of those cars. I saw one with an NSX-R, one with a regular NSX manual, and one with an NSX automatic, and the RX7 was featured in all of those videos as well, and the MKIV supra. And... I don't remember the supra topping either the RX7 or the NSX. Did you have a source for that claim? Maybe I missed it in this thread, I'll check.

Edit:

I mean, if the handling was equivalent, you would think the power advantage would make it a winner.

I think I remember seeing a Best Motoring where a Supra did pretty well in a longer race. But 90% of the BMI videos featuring an NSX/FD/A80 ended up in that order.

I do find it amusing that when Toyota decided to race the A80 Supra they *gasp* removed the 2JZ and put in the much ligher and more compact 3S-GT 4 Cylinder...

 

[Supaboost]

Yeah, that cost over double the price of the base car....

Base Mustang: $26,395
GT350: $59,140

Base Camaro: $25,000
ZL1: $64,195

And ? seriously so what ?

whats the big deal ? is 60k unattainable but mkv 50k is. So whats the big deal for a few k more for a magnitude of superior performance.

I'sent it that what all of you argue pro for, cheap affordable cars. But now it a negative lol

Let's hope Toyota is not reading a particularly heated discussion or they will cancel the A90 and start all over again.

I can guarantee you they are watching the reactions online and social media and and having meetings about it with people asses over a fire.

Really? They did a bunch of races (in japanese) against various versions of those cars. I saw one with an NSX-R, one with a regular NSX manual, and one with an NSX automatic, and the RX7 was featured in all of those videos as well, and the MKIV supra. And... I don't remember the supra topping either the RX7 or the NSX. Did you have a source for that claim? Maybe I missed it in this thread, I'll check.

Edit:

I mean, if the handling was equivalent, you would think the power advantage would make it a winner.

it was. u mean this one ?

 

[Silver Arrows]

I can guarantee you they are watching the reactions online and social media and and having meetings about it with people asses over a fire.

I'm sure that Toyota is quaking in their boots about JDM fans like yourself having a hissyfit that the A90 isn't what you wanted it to be.

 

[Supaboost]

I'm sure that Toyota is quaking in their boots about JDM fans like yourself having a hissyfit that the A90 isn't what you wanted it to be.

Yahh its a corporate dream for their product to become a joke meme before launching. sure bud sure.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Yahh its a corporate dream for their product to become a joke meme before launching. sure bud sure.

Who is it a joke meme for? People like you that still think that this is 1998? Because from where I'm sitting, most of what Toyota has done with the A90 is smart business choices. Has the hype gotten out of control? Yes, but once again, that comes back to people like yourself driving the hype out of control, much like what happened with the GT86, much like what happened with the NSX.

As has been said time and time again to you, and a point you seem unable to wrap yourself around: times change. This is not 1998 anymore. The idea of a Supra can change. Much like the idea of the GT-R and the NSX can change.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Yahh its a corporate dream for their product to become a joke meme before launching. sure bud sure.

Shmee150's painfully-jovial "I've BOUGHT a New Toyota GR SUPRA! | FIRST LOOK" has 3.2M views and a pretty strong upvote to downvote ratio. Which scenario do you think Toyota cares more about?

 

[Danoff]

it was. u mean this one ?

That's a fun one. The RX-7 gets hung up on something in there, ends up at the bottom. Anyway, there are more, like this one where the RX-7 ends up on top, followed by the NSX, and a supra that was let in by a bad move from the GT-R .



And then here where the RX-7 ends up on top again (aside from the type R of course), and the NSXes are walking away with 1/2 and then he has some sort of malfunction and has to quit..



Anyway, good stuff. The only thing that was clear from those is that the NSX-R was a track beast. I guess it's also pretty clear that the NSX, RX-7, and Supra always rose to the top over the others.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

One thing about the BM videos is that the aggressive drivers tend to finish first. The most aggressive almost always being Gan-San, followed by Tsuchiya. There's generally a good chance that whichever car they are driving ends up in 1st place.

 

[Danoff]

One thing about the BM videos is that the aggressive drivers tend to finish first. The most aggressive almost always being Gan-San, followed by Tsuchiya. There's generally a good chance that whichever car they are driving ends up in 1st place.

It just strikes me as a really bold claim to make considering that the RX-7 and NSX were both down on power and in some cases bested the Supra on track. Seems less than clear that the Supra's handling is better somehow... and also seems like it's really not needed for the mkIV to be a legendary car anyway.