Toyota Supra (A90)

[RichiPuppy]

Torque is going to be exaggerated when the car is not in the gear the dyno thinks it is in, that’s why they want 1 to 1 ratio.

 

[Griffith500]

That would only be a problem if they're not using an rpm pickup. Still, it's hard to get a 25% error in the red line estimate...

 

[Felix]

It happens occasionally, but it's not unknown for some cars just to make more power than they're quoted. There are a lot of variables, not least different dynos, and a lot of manufacturers will quote conservatively, partly because they'll test for average power during development and quote at the lower end, and partly to avoid customers getting cars independently measured and coming back to complain if their car is reading low.

There have been a few high-profile cases of tweaked press cars. The popularly-quoted one in the UK was the original Octavia vRS. It was supposed to have a 180bhp version of VW's 1.8-litre turbo engine, but turned in absolutely ridiculous 0-60 times when tested by magazines. General consensus was that it was running the 225bhp variant from the contemporary Audi TT...

With Dyno's there is a typical margin for error, but typically power is quoted at the flywheel, which typically means an engine dyno is used as a greater level of control of the conditions the engine is tested in. The thing is, the Supra was quoted as having just over the listed figures, but this was at the wheels, which is a very big step up in power.

As you correctly pointed out, it's very easy for their to be differences just down to the type of Dyno, how well the Dyno has been calibrated that morning and the ambient conditions, such as temp, humidity, altitude (what I can think of, off the top of my head). I think typically there is a +/- margin allowed with customer cars against the factory quoted numbers and BMW tends to be conservative with it's figures. Also, BMW don't want their own Z4 customers to find out that a car that's meant to have less power than their car, actually has a healthy amount more.

I use to own an ex Prodrive Press Car Impreza P1. There were things my car had (production number 0007) that was not typical for the standard level P1, but was missing parts the "premium" spec P1's would have. In the end, it wasn't very difficult to add on the few missing bits to make it a "WR" spec car.

With BMW's typically using a car control unit (my '07 Z4MR even has one) , which is very easy to edit with lines of code to add/remove features. I wouldn't be surprised the press cars are preproduction examples, which typically have some differences from what the final launch models from the main factory line. Just adding a bit more boost for some of the higher gears, so the 0-62mph (0-100km/h) remains untouched, but after that there is more power and torque to just make the car feel more lively for track they were testing on? The BMW system is VERY easy to work on if you have the right software and could be fine tuned for each press event these cars do, before they either go into the heritage fleet for Toyota/BMW , or scrapped. I doubt they would sell these to the public, as they are driven so hard that's is not fair on a customer, as these cars won't have the same lifespan as a normal production car will have.

The reason why I stated that it's not the first time it's been done, is because the original press E-Types were actually lighter and more tuned, with parts of the bumper removed, so they would hit the magical 150mph. It wasn't until the series 1 update with the 3.8 litre engine and newer gearbox, that the production cars would hit 150mph.

 

[homeforsummer]

I wouldn't be surprised the press cars are preproduction examples, which typically have some differences from what the final launch models from the main factory line.

Fun fact, but BMW press cars do actually have a "Press Car" option code on the specification sheets that come with the car.

Incidentally, most manufacturers do still sell on their press cars, just like your Subaru. While they're driven hard, they're also probably better maintained than any other example in the country. Customer response seems to vary. Some people love that they have pictures of their car sideways in a magazine. Others find out years later that it was thrashed to within an inch of its life and aren't so happy It amused me when we discovered our old long-term Caterham Seven for sale which had, a few months earlier, put a rod through its block...

 

[McLaren]

Fun fact, but BMW press cars do actually have a "Press Car" option code on the specification sheets that come with the car.

Incidentally, most manufacturers do still sell on their press cars, just like your Subaru. While they're driven hard, they're also probably better maintained than any other example in the country. Customer response seems to vary. Some people love that they have pictures of their car sideways in a magazine. Others find out years later that it was thrashed to within an inch of its life and aren't so happy It amused me when we discovered our old long-term Caterham Seven for sale which had, a few months earlier, put a rod through its block...

If I'm not mistaken though, don't press cars usually end up sold/allocated long after the initial production begins & usually aren't disclosed as such?

We currently have a used RC F-Sport that was a press car back in California, but there's no mention of it anywhere in its service history or records. The only reason we found out is an employee who used to work directly with the manufacturer recognized the VIN.

 

[Felix]

If I'm not mistaken though, don't press cars usually end up sold/allocated long after the initial production begins & usually aren't disclosed as such?

We currently have a used RC F-Sport that was a press car back in California, but there's no mention of it anywhere in its service history or records. The only reason we found out is an employee who used to work directly with the manufacturer recognized the VIN.

Depends on the country it's registered from what I understand.

 

[homeforsummer]

Sounds about right. I guess it depends on the car too. If someone buys a performance car they're sometimes enough into cars in the first place to find old magazine tests of it and put two and two together. To my knowledge most UK fleet cars go into the dealer network afterwards.

 

[ProjectWHaT]

https://jalopnik.com/guy-buys-bmw-with-problems-finds-out-it-was-hooned-on-1747174493

I remember this article where a guy bought a M3 which has mechanical problems and he later found out it was driven by Clarkson on Top Gear

 

[CodeRedR51]

I doubt they would sell these to the public,

Press cars might be if they are production spec. If they are pre-production.....crunch.

 

[kikie]

I guess this is the A90 press car.

 

[homeforsummer]

I guess this is the A90 press car.

What gave it away?

View attachment 821241

Driven it ​

​

 

[kikie]

What gave it away?

​

My stupidity. And the urge to make/ask stupid comments/questions although I already know the answer.

 

[Danoff]

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toy...cayman-vs-bmw-m2-competition-comparison-test/

They like the supra over the other two (M2, cayman) because of price (performance is similar). I'd give it the edge on reliability if I'm guessing too. It seems like the supra is steadily impressing. Maybe it was wicked smart for them to disappoint people by under-reporting power, knocking down expectations a little bit only to come back and impress.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toy...cayman-vs-bmw-m2-competition-comparison-test/

They like the supra over the other two (M2, cayman) because of price (performance is similar). I'd give it the edge on reliability if I'm guessing too. It seems like the supra is steadily impressing. Maybe it was wicked smart for them to disappoint people by under-reporting power, knocking down expectations a little bit only to come back and impress.

If you want a sports car that is neither too blue collar nor too white collar, the Supra is kind of your jam. You see Corvettes & Mustangs as well as Porsches & BMWs as problematic for the image they convey and the baggage you buy with them. The Supra fits somewhere in between, allowing it's owners to escape the immediate "Such a typical ____ driver" discrimination. People make assumptions about Porsche owners and people make assumptions about Corvette owners (at least I do ) but I don't think I would assume anything about somebody who buys a Supra other than that my Corvette/Porsche assumptions do not apply. In some ways, I think you could say that has always been the Supra's ethos, especially as it's been a bit of a shape-shifter in most other areas.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Based on what I've seen so far, the new Z should be right in the mix with the new Supra as far as performance and price. Will be interesting to see the outcome. My guess is we'll probably see something at the Tokyo Motor Show in October...

 

[05XR8]

If you want a sports car that is neither too blue collar nor too white collar, the Supra is kind of your jam. You see Corvettes & Mustangs as well as Porsches & BMWs as problematic for the image they convey and the baggage you buy with them. The Supra fits somewhere in between, allowing it's owners to escape the immediate "Such a typical ____ driver" discrimination. People make assumptions about Porsche owners and people make assumptions about Corvette owners (at least I do ) but I don't think I would assume anything about somebody who buys a Supra other than that my Corvette/Porsche assumptions do not apply. In some ways, I think you could say that has always been the Supra's ethos, especially as it's been a bit of a shape-shifter in most other areas.

Maybe similar to how the 86 has a wide range of owners. Not so much as MX-5 owners, but I see the 86 fits in such a category of one. However, as R1600turbo is mentioning about the Z, that may change.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Based on what I've seen so far, the new Z should be right in the mix with the new Supra as far as performance and price. Will be interesting to see the outcome. My guess is we'll probably see something at the Tokyo Motor Show in October...

It's a shame 350zs got cheap enough to be ruined in vast quantities by self indentified '****-boys'. 370zs never hit that level, but are quite similar to the 350z and their decade-old design (specifically the interior) comes across as 'cheap' rather than purposeful. The Z 'brand' will need a proper makeover for the Z35 if they want to compete with the Supra, even if the performance is there. Put another way, it's hard for me to see the Z as an 'adult' car right now. You kind of need to meet that bar to sell a car for $50k. I would love to be proven wrong though, as the concept of the Z car (a kind of perennial Japanese 911 thing) really jives with me.

 

[CodeRedR51]

It's a shame 350zs got cheap enough to be ruined in vast quantities by self indentified '****-boys'. 370zs never hit that level, but are quite similar to the 350z and their decade-old design (specifically the interior) comes across as 'cheap' rather than purposeful. The Z 'brand' will need a proper makeover for the Z35 if they want to compete with the Supra, even if the performance is there. Put another way, it's hard for me to see the Z as an 'adult' car right now. You kind of need to meet that bar to sell a car for $50k. I would love to be proven wrong though, as the concept of the Z car (a kind of perennial Japanese 911 thing) really jives with me.

Considering the improvements I have seen lately when it comes to several of their other cars (not yet for sale), I feel like the new Z will be a big step up over the current one if it follows the same trend.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's a shame 350zs got cheap enough to be ruined in vast quantities by self indentified '****-boys'. 370zs never hit that level, but are quite similar to the 350z and their decade-old design (specifically the interior) comes across as 'cheap' rather than purposeful. The Z 'brand' will need a proper makeover for the Z35 if they want to compete with the Supra, even if the performance is there. Put another way, it's hard for me to see the Z as an 'adult' car right now. You kind of need to meet that bar to sell a car for $50k. I would love to be proven wrong though, as the concept of the Z car (a kind of perennial Japanese 911 thing) really jives with me.

I dunno what prices are for 370s over there, but I have been thinking recently how the 370Z gets a lot of crap for being old (rightly, in some cases), but at the same time, it's a car with a similar power output to the Supra, a manual transmission, and in the UK, it's a full £23k cheaper - £29k versus £52k.

Even the Nismo, which seemed a bit too expensive, is only £40k, so £12k cheaper! I'm not about to say the 370's a better car than the Supra - it's been a while since I've spent any time with a 370, and the Supra's undoubtedly good - but it's certainly made me re-evaluate the 370's value for money.

And if pure driving fun was my only consideration, all other factors ignored and even with price taken out of the equation... I think I might just go for the Nismo. If Nissan does a good job with the next Z the Supra's really going to have its work cut out.

Edit: And I think I honestly prefer the way the 370 looks, too.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Even the Nismo, which seemed a bit too expensive, is only £40k, so £12k cheaper! I'm not about to say the 370's a better car than the Supra - it's been a while since I've spent any time with a 370, and the Supra's undoubtedly good - but it's certainly made me re-evaluate the 370's value for money.

And if pure driving fun was my only consideration, all other factors ignored and even with price taken out of the equation... I think I might just go for the Nismo. If Nissan does a good job with the next Z the Supra's really going to have its work cut out.

Edit: And I think I honestly prefer the way the 370 looks, too.

There's a video for that:


I quite like it.

 

[homeforsummer]

It's been about four years since I've driven the Nismo but it's definitely better than the standard car, and it no longer seems like such bad value given the Supra's so much more.

 

[CarGuru]

True... until you get inside the 370Z

 

[Sage Ages]

Motortrend put a Supra on a dyno. Came back with 332hp and 387lb/lbs at the wheels.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-toyota-supra-dyno-test/

Of course, this is a different type of dyno than the one that Car and Driver ran a while back. I figure these are closer to real-world figures.

 

[05XR8]

Shooooooot. That's more than an AMG Four-Pot Packing V8 Power.

 

[homeforsummer]

True... until you get inside the 370Z

Meh, the basics are fine. Good driving position, good pedal and shifter feel, fairly intuitive layout. The Nismo in particular gets great Recaro seats and an Alcantara wheel which helps the general ambience too. And it feels solid. The slightly older design or crappier plastics don't really bother me - I'm used to living with much older stuff anyway.

 

[McLaren]

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/toy...cayman-vs-bmw-m2-competition-comparison-test/

They like the supra over the other two (M2, cayman) because of price (performance is similar). I'd give it the edge on reliability if I'm guessing too. It seems like the supra is steadily impressing. Maybe it was wicked smart for them to disappoint people by under-reporting power, knocking down expectations a little bit only to come back and impress.

Hot takes from the resident "Supra is a flop expert" from before.

How about equally priced Mustang or Camaro, those things will maul the mkv.

Mkv will struggle against such machines, with the camaro being exactly its price.

i have no doubt that a 50k camaro smokes the Supra on a track. Power to weight is not in the mkvs favor

Wonder is it even managed high 12s in the 1/4.

Camaro SS 1LE: 455hp, 0-60 - 3.9, QTR Mile - 12.3@115.9mph.
Supra: 355hp, 0-60 - 3.9, QTR Mile - 12.5@ 111.2mph.

From his own source.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cu...-competition-vs-2019-chevrolet-camaro-ss-1le/

 

[05XR8]

Supra 0.2 seconds slower? May as well round that up to 60 seconds, in 1/4 mile speak. What a porker. Must be the 19" alloys and metallic paint weighing it down.

 

[05XR8]

Just another tidbit about the GT4 car

The production version of the Supra is fitted with covers to reduce sound and prevent water ingress; however, the car has been designed so that various parts can be cooled simply by removing the covers and making minor modifications. Ducts were installed in the model that took part in last year’s VLN9, while both ducts and oil coolers have been equipped to the race machine that will enter this year’s 24 Hours of Nürburgring.

https://toyotagazooracing.com/nurburgring/contents/supra_potential.html

 

[05XR8]

https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-sells-out-in-22-minutes-119099/

Deliveries of the 250kW six-cylinder rear-drive coupe will begin in September 2019 and according to Toyota Australia, around 80 per cent of pre-orders opted for the more expensive Supra GTS, a $94,900 proposition.

>> Toyota Supra Australian price and spec
The rest have opted for the Supra GT at $84,900, including the first order, which was placed by a Melbourne buyer who chose Monza Red exterior paint.

Popular colours included Goodwood Grey, Monza Red and Fuji White, while the limited edition Nurburg Matte Grey colour is sold out for the entire year.

 

[Danoff]

https://www.motoring.com.au/toyota-supra-sells-out-in-22-minutes-119099/

It's an expensive time to be trying to buy that car. Give it 10 years or so and it will be much more affordable. Possibly with a stick shift, with an upgrade package.