Toyota to recall 3.8M vehicles over floor mats

[niky]

Rolleyes means [sarcasm].

Conclusion, must have had a sticky accelerator.

 

[nobuffalo]

Gross!

 

[Adamgp]

I think some of you guys got your tin foil hats on too tight.

Toyota's problems are not caused by driver error. (majority of them)

 

[Joey D]

And I think you have your bias showing a bit too much, I'm guessing a majority of the Toyota problems are because people can't drive or don't pay attention.

 

[Adamgp]

Driver error was the first thing Toyota blamed. It was not the case.

 

[Joey D]

The first thing Toyota blamed was floor mats.

 

[Adamgp]

Way back before the floormats, Toyota blamed the drivers.

 

[Eric.]

If I somehow drive my car off the road, what is the first thing to assume happened? Driver error. But maybe I had a blowout. Or I avoided an oncoming car that crossed the center line. Or any number of other things. With no other witness besides whoever may have also been involved, there's little proof of what happened.

 

[FoolKiller]

Way back before the floormats, Toyota blamed the drivers.

I'm having trouble finding anything other than James Lentz's Congressional testimony that testing has not taken into account how the drivers were using the cars, or reacting. If you have a link to something more I would love to see it, because I remember them first saying they are isolated incidents, then blaming floor mats.


As for tin foil hats: There is historical precedent to show that the last time mass complaints of sticking accelerators were reported it did turn out to be driver error. To ignore that fact risks causing great financial damage to a company, and a larger spread economic reaction across the country, because we were unwilling to look at every possible variable that is at play in a car in motion.

Recent data showing a large percentage of reports coming from very specific demographics should raise a few eyebrows.

Another aspect that can't be ignored is that people get scared after mass news coverage of this nature and so many people that don't actually have a problem may report one because they perceived an issue that didn't exist. That causes a new problem. If 1% of owners have a legitimate issue but 10% of owners are filing complaints then that means that 90% of the investigations are wasting time and delaying a legitimate solution. If we aren't afraid to look at the possibility of driver error first then we may be able to rule out a number of cases very quickly.

If we assume every driver was telling the truth and doing exactly what they say they were doing, then we have an even bigger problem because they claim to have been hitting the brakes. Testing shows that hitting the brakes with the accelerator at full throttle will still stop a car. So, we may have a brake problem too, and in the case of the woman that told Congress she even put it in neutral and reverse, a transmission problem.

Someone who understands cars cannot listen to some of this testimony without at least saying, "Huh?"


EDIT: and according to USA Today, Toyota is, at least now, being careful not to blame drivers when we all are.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-03-16-toyota16_ST_N.htm

 

[a6m5]

I think some of you guys got your tin foil hats on too tight.

Toyota's problems are not caused by driver error. (majority of them)

And how do you know that? How do you know that "(majority)" of the acceleration are not caused by the driver error?

Toyota's "problems", whatever that means, may not be caused by the drivers, but unintended acceleration are mostly caused by driver errors. This is not an opinion. It is a fact.

Also, do you not agree that this isn't just a Toyota issue? Shouldn't this investigation include any auto manufacturers with numbers of unintended acceleration claims filed against them?

 

[Moglet]

We happen to own one of the first iQs shipped to Europe, and it's roughly 5 years ahead of the competition. There is no single other car that even comes close to the very well thought through design and, for a car so small, superb finish and extras.

5 years? I doubt it. It's aiming to fill a gap in the market that doesn't need filling. If you want a tiny city car that you can park forwards into parallel spaces, get a Smart. If you need a bit more room, get a 500 or Ka or something similar for the same price as an iQ.

Plus you can take the others to the shops and have storage space.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Anyone that did NOT instantly turn the ignition off, or shift into neutral, in my book, has a 99% chance of being a liar.
And from what I hear this guy from California that was on TV was several hundred grand in the hole? And has filed some 40 insurance claims in his life? And 5 months behind on his car payment?
I'm pretty sure that's the definition of "hoax".

I can see it and I don't like Toyota's.....

 

[a6m5]

Anyone that did NOT instantly turn the ignition off, or shift into neutral, in my book, has a 99% chance of being a liar.

I have to disagree with you there. Like that cop that was killed in the Lexus? I hear it was a dealer loaner. Which suggest that he might have not been completely familiar with all the controls in the car. Also, some Lexus has push button ignition, and they have to be pressed down for three seconds to be turned off.

I still agree with you that they should know to shift it in neutral, they should know to turn the motor off, and how, but you'd be surprised. If you work in automotive business, you encounter so many drivers who are completely clueless. It's hilarious talking to them, but I guess only until you are sharing the road with them.

 

[nobuffalo]

Has anyone seen this yet?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/york-r...ry?id=10138656

New computer data has cast doubt on a case of an alleged "runaway" Prius in Harrison, N.Y.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) today said an examination of the "vehicle's onboard computer systems" found there was "no application of the brakes and the throttle was fully open." The findings contradict the driver's claim that she was had hit the brakes, but they failed to stop the car.

On the morning of Tuesday, March 9, a 56-year-old woman in Harrison said her Prius suddenly accelerated as she pulled out of a driveway and sped across the street before it slammed into a stone wall.

At the time, acting Harrison police chief Capt. Anthony Marraccini supported the driver's account of stepping on the brake pedal. However, after reviewing the vehicle data provided by Toyota, Marraccini reversed himself and told reporters "human error" may have been the cause of the crash. Asked for comment on NHTSA's statement, Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons deferred to local law enforcement. "Toyota's role was to assist the Harrison Police Department with its accident investigation," said Lyons. "They will be issuing the final investigation report, including the information provided by Toyota and NHTSA.

On the day of the accident, the driver of the Prius told police she had not previously experienced problems with sudden acceleration in the car, because of news reports she was taking the car to a local Toyota dealership to be checked.

"She said the car accelerated and continued to accelerate," Marraccini told ABC News. "She said she tried to brake." According to Capt. Marraccini, the driver kept hitting the brakes, but the car wouldn't stop. The vehicle traveled about 150 feet before the driver lost control, crossed two lanes and hit a stone wall. The woman suffered an injury to her knee.

Marraccini said his department checked to see if the floor mat might have caused the accident. "From our investigation, it doesn't appear the floor mat was the cause," he said. The floor mat was secured to the car floor with the factory-issued hook and also tied to the seat base with a plastic tie. Marraccini said he believed it had been taken to a Toyota dealership to be serviced.

Toyota held a press conference in San Diego Monday to present the findings of an investigation into the circumstances of an alleged runaway incident on Interstate 8 on March 8. Toyota representatives said the electronic data from the 2008 Prius driven by James Sikes did not match the account of the incident given by Sikes, in which he claimed that the car's accelerator was "stuck."

At the press conference, Bob Waltz, Toyota Motor Sales vice president for product quality, restated Toyota's position that the company has pinpointed the causes of sudden acceleration incidents, and that there is no glitch in the electronic throttle, as some have claimed. "We believe that we have identified the two causes of unintended acceleration," said Walz. "Sticky gas pedals and floor mat entrapment."

At the same press conference, Toyota spokesman Mike Michels added that no one liked to talk about the other cause of sudden unintended acceleration -- drivers. "There are also human factors," said Michels. "NHTSA will tell you that the vast majority of sudden unintended acceleration incidents are due to human factors."

Sorry if I did a bad job qouting it.

 

[niky]

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/th...lice-recommends-charges-against-prius-driver/

It's the same story in the Japanese case. Black box recording showed no brake application.

Not entirely unexpected.

 

[Adamgp]

http://www.sltrib.com/Business/ci_14697739

The Trooper that aided the Prius driver filed a report consistent with the driver's story. He saw brake lights flashing and could smell burning brakes.

 

[Joey D]

You can tap your brakes and have the lights go on and it's pretty easy to burn up brakes if you are riding the pedal at 94mph. Sikes is still full of it.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

http://www.sltrib.com/Business/ci_14697739

The Trooper that aided the Prius driver filed a report consistent with the driver's story. He saw brake lights flashing and could smell burning brakes.

Different story

 

[Adamgp]

Different story

That was about the Sikes case.

 

[FoolKiller]

http://www.sltrib.com/Business/ci_14697739

The Trooper that aided the Prius driver filed a report consistent with the driver's story. He saw brake lights flashing and could smell burning brakes.

Did Sikes claim he had the brakes floored? Shouldn't that have caused the lights to be on constantly?

They've tested his car and constant simultaneous brake and acceleration application stops the car every time. So, maybe he was doing it wrong?

 

[niky]

Did Sikes claim he had the brakes floored? Shouldn't that have caused the lights to be on constantly?

They've tested his car and constant simultaneous brake and acceleration application stops the car every time. So, maybe he was doing it wrong?

Sikes claims to have been standing on the brakes.

The officer said that looking through his side window, it seemed like Sikes was standing on the brakes.

I don't know what the black box data on his car showed.

 

[FoolKiller]

Sikes claims to have been standing on the brakes.

The officer said that looking through his side window, it seemed like Sikes was standing on the brakes.

I don't know what the black box data on his car showed.

Generally automobile black box data only contains a few seconds worth of data at a time because they were designed just to determine the cause of a crash by manufacturers doing research. So, it is useful if you want to know what happened just before a car crashed, but it won't tell you if something 10 minutes before led to it, nor can you use it to look into a case when a crash never happened because it is continually refreshing the data as long as the car is still operational and running. Even if no one drove the car again after they stopped it all they would likely see is that the accelerator was pressed and then he turned of the ignition since he had supposedly given up on brakes at that point.



EDIT: And it appears that Toyota is now challenging ABC on their hit piece where they had a guy supposedly show how it can happen, after you tinker with the electronics in a way that no one would.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/18/toyota-asks-abc-news-for-apology-retraction-of-brian-ross-repor/

"Toyota deserves a public retraction and formal apology from ABC News." At least according to the automaker itself. For what, you ask? For ABC's "irresponsible broadcast entitled "Expert: Electronic Design Flaw Linked to Runaway Toyotas." You surely remember the piece, which originally aired the night before a Congressional Panel began investigating the issue of unintended acceleration in Toyota vehicles.

That dubious timing has also drawn ire from Toyota, which says ABC News "Rushed out the report" and "denied Toyota the opportunity to review specific manipulation" ABC and its expert, Dr. David Gilbert, "performed in the broadcast." If it had been given an opportunity to respond, Toyota claims it would have shown that Gilbert's technique required conditions that are "virtually impossible to occur in real-world conditions."

It's also pointed out in Toyota's four-page letter, which you can see in its entirety below, that ABC News faked at least one shot of a tachometer shooting from 1,000 to 6,200 RPM, insinuating that the vehicle was speeding out of control with Brian Ross behind the wheel when it was actually sitting in a parking lot with the transmission firmly in Park.

Toyota concludes that Brian Ross "failed in his basic duty as a journalist" by not disclosing that Dr. Gilbert's work was being paid for by a group of "trial lawyers involved in litigation against Toyota." Finally, the Japanese automaker "reserves the right to take any and every opportunity to protect and defend" its reputation.

The ball is officially in your court, ABC News.

 

[Eric.]

I'd certainly agree with Toyota's statements there. Rewiring the ECU to do what you're wanting to happen (and being paid to make that happen) is not relevant to what the problem really is, and its just adding an apparent insult to Toyota and the masses will believe it.

 

[niky]

ABC said Brian Ross will answer after he gets back from... an... errh... planned vacation.

 

[FoolKiller]

And the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has finished pulling data from the data recorders in all the incidents they had available.

The Result: Driver Error - No brakes applied, only gas, in all but one case (that was a floormat)

http://jalopnik.com/5586166/feds-say-driver-error-biggest-culprit-in-toyota-accidents

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703834604575364871534435744.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that at the time of the crashes, throttles were wide open and the brakes were not engaged, people familiar with the findings said.

The results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyota and Lexus vehicles surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.

I know, everyone is surprised, especially Audi, but try to contain your shock at the fact that science is showing that those who buy boring cars where everything is automatic make the dumbest of driving errors.

 

[a6m5]

Yeah, big surprise. Not fair to single out Toyota drivers, but I do get what you are saying about the type of buyers making type of drivers.

Unintended acceleration happens all the time, they stomp on the wrong frigging pedal! Toyota critics, especially the overreacting politicians owe Toyota an apology. And they went after only Toyota, too, when it was clear that other makes also had unintended acceleration reports.

Of course, all this happened while the Government was heavily invested in GM & Chrysler. I'd be very surprised if there wasn't any nudging going on at a chance to put a negative light on GM's biggest rival, Toyota.

 

[Jim Prower]

Furthermore, I'm fairly sure this debacle was a factor in the neutering of the FT-86 program.

 

[Philly]

Called it. And what is the NHTSA going to do about these cars that are boring that cater to people who hate driving and let them take their minds off the task? Nada.

Also, what is wrong with these cars that make it so the driver could confuse the brake pedal with the gas? They feel completely different. Or at least they should.

 

[niky]

Muscle memory and seats made to fit people with 46 inch waists. You sit down slightly askew and press the "brakes"... and if the car surges forward, you don't take your foot off the "brakes" and look down to see if you're actually hitting the brakes... you just pump the "brakes" harder.

Blame it on tradition in car design and people's unwillingness to adopt a different control strategy. Motorbikes almost never have this problem, since the motor action required to twist the throttle and squeeze the brakes are entirely different.

And the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has finished pulling data from the data recorders in all the incidents they had available.

The Result: Driver Error - No brakes applied, only gas, in all but one case (that was a floormat)

http://jalopnik.com/5586166/feds-say-driver-error-biggest-culprit-in-toyota-accidents

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703834604575364871534435744.html?mod=googlenews_wsj



I know, everyone is surprised, especially Audi, but try to contain your shock at the fact that science is showing that those who buy boring cars where everything is automatic make the dumbest of driving errors.

I'm honestly shocked.

Shocked that they didn't take another five years and a couple of million dollars more to prove the obvious.

 

[Adamgp]

Something seems odd about those articles:

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.

NHTSA has received more than 3,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyotas and Lexuses, including some dating to early last decade, according to a report the agency compiled in March. The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify that only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences. That accident last Aug. 28, which killed a California highway patrolman and three passengers in a Lexus, was traced to a floor mat that trapped the gas pedal in the depressed position.



They analyzed dozens of the black boxes and determined that all 3,000+ (minus 1) were driver error?

I agree it would be impossible to analyze all boxes, but this sounds pretty bogus to conclude all but one of the 3,000 were driver error based on a few dozen boxes.