Toyota to recall 3.8M vehicles over floor mats

[niky]

Apparently Jalopnik accquired a memo that proves the Sikes incident was a hoax.

This Memo Proves The Runaway Prius Was A Hoax

Not surprising. At all.

 

[a6m5]

After I heard that he refused to shift the Prius into neutral, after 911 dispatcher told him to, that was proof enough for me.

 

[TrievelA7X]

This I struggle a bit with.

Even though I do not own a car at this moment, partly because I don't need one at this time, I already know what car I will be looking for; a car that will get me to where I want safely and in one piece. Sure, getting there in a classic or sporty car might be so much more exiting, but I can't see myself enjoying it as much as I'd like to when I'm constantly thinking "Man, I hope the engine doesn't overheat this time."

I can't see how I cannot be a skilled or good driver when I drive a Toyota. For all you know I have a souped up MR2 that tears up the asphalt in rallycross events. Who knows I'm just driving my Avensis wagon to fit the kids and a bunch of stuff in the back.

I'm not trying to offend anyone now, but I do find it a little bit irritating when people say you either don't know anything about cars or you are not a skilled driver when you own and drive a Toyota.

You're speaking OLD Toyota.
I'm speaking NEW Toyota.
It doesn't mean they're bad cars, it means all the reasons one would buy a Toyota point in the direction of not being passionate about cars in general, and Toyota has become the old GM, passionless, and soulless drone vehicles people buy for very logical and practical reasons.
But if you buy your car solely because you expect it to be reliable and "safe", then yes, that does mean you're not passionate about driving.
And if you're not passionate about it, logic determines you're most likely not very good at it.
You wouldn't ask a vegetarian to roast a ham for you, would you?

As per safety, all current issues aside, you might want to look into "crash safety" ratings, where if you find them important at all, Toyota will certainly not be your first choice. In fact, I believe it just might be American, if you want best fuel economy and crash safety ratings....
Interesting how when companies get big they start slacking, ain't it?

 

[Bram Turismo]

And if you're not passionate about it, logic determines you're most likely not very good at it.
You wouldn't ask a vegetarian to roast a ham for you, would you?

Why wouldn't I? Who says vegetarians can't cook?

I still disagree with the first line I quoted. It's like saying you need to have a passion for guitars to be able to play them any decent. That is utter nonsense. In my view it's not passion that decides whether you are good at something, but how much you actually care.

 

[Joey D]

You're speaking OLD Toyota.
I'm speaking NEW Toyota.
It doesn't mean they're bad cars, it means all the reasons one would buy a Toyota point in the direction of not being passionate about cars in general, and Toyota has become the old GM, passionless, and soulless drone vehicles people buy for very logical and practical reasons.
But if you buy your car solely because you expect it to be reliable and "safe", then yes, that does mean you're not passionate about driving.
And if you're not passionate about it, logic determines you're most likely not very good at it.
You wouldn't ask a vegetarian to roast a ham for you, would you?

As per safety, all current issues aside, you might want to look into "crash safety" ratings, where if you find them important at all, Toyota will certainly not be your first choice. In fact, I believe it just might be American, if you want best fuel economy and crash safety ratings....
Interesting how when companies get big they start slacking, ain't it?

Wow really? How can you possibly know that people who buy new Toyota's aren't passionate about driving? Stop thinking Top Gear is the be all to end all on automotive opinion.

 

[niky]

passionless, and soulless drone vehicles people buy for very logical and practical reasons.

You've described 99% of the car buying public.

Most people buy cars for logical and practical reasons. Well... not really, but that's another story... but the thing is, the arguments they use to defend their purchase are almost always about the practical aspects of owning.

If people were really "passionate" about cars, they'd all have Mazda Miatas. Old ones. And nothing else. But people "need" rear seats. They "need" trunk space. They "need" automatics... or all-wheel drive...

Go back to the list I posted up there:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3786090&postcount=322

Notice something? Honda and Nissan cater to enthusiasts, yet the Maxima, Altima and Accord are all on the list. As are the Civic and Fit. All "sporty" cars. In fact... you're twice as likely to see unintended acceleration in a Civic or Fit than a Corolla or Yaris!

I find it strange that a car as boring as the Sentra doesn't even make a show...

-

Generalizations are meaningless. The truth is... lots of old people buy big Toyotas... but that doesn't mean that all Toyota owners are old and clueless about driving... otherwise more than 0.01 percent would be complaining about sudden unintended acceleration. There are a lot of young owners who drive Yarises, RAV4s, 4Runners, Corollas and Scions. And a lot of them do know how to drive.

-

Of course, one generalization still rings true... Mazda owners are still the best drivers. Just look at that list: not a single Mazda on there... [/humor]... or was I being serious... hmmmm....

 

[FoolKiller]

She can drive stick.

So can my mom, but she also keeps her side view mirrors pointing down in her RX330 because she doesn't want turn her head to look at her blind spot. Problem is she created a new blind spot and doesn't know it.

It isn't so much a matter of your mom being personally offended as it is a case of the article pointing fingers at a demographic that she may relate to.

And if I may stereotype just a bit, from my experience, that age demographic (my parents are on the younger end of it) is the generation of people that grew up believing manufacturing jobs were the end all be all of making money and now see large manufacturing companies as evil, either due to too much union exposure or having lost their jobs to a shut down factory. My father, as an example, worked as a machinist in a unionized factory job. He will talk non-stop about how these horrible companies have stolen money from people like him just to ship their jobs oversea. When I walk around and point out how many things in his house weren't made in America, and ask him how he thinks his hands are clean, he tells me I am just confusing the issue. I then ask him how important local jobs are (as in Kentucky jobs) and counter him with the fact that he exclusively buys Chevy cars and trucks (but not the KY made Corvette) when Kentucky makes Fords and Toyotas. Again, I am just confusing the issue and talking nonsense. He plays no role in what decisions corporations make.

Your mom might be fine herself, but she also might be part of a group that will refuse to allow any blame to be placed on its own members when it is obvious this is just the greedy plot of some evil corporation that clearly believes dead customers are more profitable than repeat customers.




As for the Toyota owners aren't good drivers thing: No, owning a Toyota doesn't make you a bad driver. But if someone is buying a car because it has things like lane guidance senors, self parking mechanisms, and so on one has to wonder, why do they feel they need a sensor to tell them if they are drifting out of their lane if they are paying attention? What really scares me are the people that would buy a car with sensors to alert the driver to when they are being distracted or fall asleep. If something like that sounds like a reason for you to want to drive that car, you probably shouldn't be driving. I mean, that's only a step beyond buying a car because you personally feel you need the breathalyzer test it makes you take to start the car.

 

[eight6er]

You're speaking OLD Toyota.
I'm speaking NEW Toyota.
It doesn't mean they're bad cars, it means all the reasons one would buy a Toyota point in the direction of not being passionate about cars in general, and Toyota has become the old GM, passionless, and soulless drone vehicles people buy for very logical and practical reasons.
But if you buy your car solely because you expect it to be reliable and "safe", then yes, that does mean you're not passionate about driving.
And if you're not passionate about it, logic determines you're most likely not very good at it.
You wouldn't ask a vegetarian to roast a ham for you, would you?

As per safety, all current issues aside, you might want to look into "crash safety" ratings, where if you find them important at all, Toyota will certainly not be your first choice. In fact, I believe it just might be American, if you want best fuel economy and crash safety ratings....
Interesting how when companies get big they start slacking, ain't it?

I only buy cars that are reliable and that fit the purpose I intend to use them for. I had a 1988 1.8 diesel corolla and my friend had an alfaromeo 155 2.0 t spark, but he could never keep up with me on a twisty road because he cannot drive a car fast, as well as I can. He buys cars like alfaromeos because he does not know much about cars. I drive toyotas and nissans because I do know about cars. So buying a toyota does not point to someone, who is not passionate about driving.

I remember the in the 2000-2007 Renault lagunas, if there was no floor mat in the car, the accelerator used to get stuck on the retainer clip when you floored it and you would have to reach down with your hand to free it.

 

[Joey D]

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Source: Anyone Else See A Pattern Here?

 

[FoolKiller]

A pattern is apparent, but it needs to be cross-referenced with an average age of Toyota drivers statistic and the ages of acceleration and ownership of other brands too.

Basically, the pattern that needs to be established is if older people are the largest group with this issue, despite brand of car, and if there is a correlating higher number who own Toyotas.

 

[Joey D]

You just need to look at the list niky posted, the number two car on there is a Lincoln Town Car. The only people I know of that drive Town Cars are chauffeurs for airport Metro Cars and pensioners.

I'm not saying accusing old people of being bad drivers, however it is something that we might need to look at. Could most of these unintended acceleration cases just be because people can't drive? Who knows. Between the media and the idiots with blind hate towards Toyota you'd think buying any Toyota will instantly mean you are going to go on Mr. Toyoda's Wild Ride.

 

[FoolKiller]

You just need to look at the list niky posted, the number two car on there is a Lincoln Town Car. The only people I know of that drive Town Cars are chauffeurs for airport Metro Cars and pensioners.

Well yeah, the eyeball test shows a glaring coincidence. But if you want something with a little more conclusive evidence to truly show a trend what we have now doesn't cut it. It does point us in a direction to throw some scrutiny though.

I'm not saying accusing old people of being bad drivers, however it is something that we might need to look at. Could most of these unintended acceleration cases just be because people can't drive? Who knows.

I don't think it is a case of not being able to drive, but more a case of how they react when something doesn't do what they expect. If someone is accidentally hitting the wrong pedal, or something else equally disturbing, then it is likely a sign that panic is involved. Age might not be the cause but it may be what turns "oops, bumped my cruise control lever (mine is right next to my indicator lights)" into "OH MY GOD, WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!"

Between the media and the idiots with blind hate towards Toyota you'd think buying any Toyota will instantly mean you are going to go on Mr. Toyoda's Wild Ride.

Whoa, everybody loves Mr. Toyoda's Wild Ride.

 

[Joey D]

First glances suddenly turn into the elephant in the room. This is something that needs addressing but no company in the world is going to say that their buyers are idiots and don't know what to do behind the wheel of a car. It's a real double edged sword unfortunately.

 

[FoolKiller]

Jalponik updated the chart to give it more context.

You can clearly see the difference between stupid driving and those freaking out over something now.

 

[niky]

Which means if you want to feel safe in a car and actually not die... you should get an 80 year old to drive for you. Who knew?

 

[Jim Prower]

Look...we knew it was gonna be a circus. That's just how these things are these days, where you can get famous by pantomiming a foreign song in front of your webcam and posting it on YouTube. People seek attention, fame, and money (especially money) these days, and when a scandal like this hits the airwaves, as many people will jump upon it as possible. It's sickening.

Maybe if people, y'know, paid more attention to each other, we wouldn't have a problem...

 

[a6m5]

So, at this point, y'all think this whole thing was a non-issue? If there were any defects, it was never in the design? No ghost in the machine? I mean Washington was ready to rip the head off Toyota just few weeks ago. I haven't heard much last couple of weeks.

I don't know, there were couple of cases that convinced me. One was that of lady in Tennessee, and another one was of this guy with his Lexus. His ordeal with the Lexus dealer is on the youtube. While I'm convinced now that majority of claims were by the idiots, or of the floormats, I'd still like to be convinced that it wasn't the electronics in some small number of cases. Maybe we'll never know?

 

[TrievelA7X]

Why wouldn't I? Who says vegetarians can't cook?

I still disagree with the first line I quoted. It's like saying you need to have a passion for guitars to be able to play them any decent. That is utter nonsense. In my view it's not passion that decides whether you are good at something, but how much you actually care.

So you would actually ask a vegetarian to cook your meat for you?
And please do show the guitarist that has no passion for the guitar.

P.S. "how much you actually care" would be determined by your amount of passion for it, along with......not much, if anything else.

It's not that I'm saying anything bad about Toyotas or their buyers, they just don't make any drivers cars. Not a single one.

Wow really? How can you possibly know that people who buy new Toyota's aren't passionate about driving? Stop thinking Top Gear is the be all to end all on automotive opinion.

TopGear never included Toyota's in the particular segment I refer to. So there goes your entire.... whatever you were attempting to get at.

@ niky - I agree. I;m tired, so I won't quote it, but my point in general was that Toyota, unlike most any other car company in the world, doesn't have a single "sporty" car. They used to, but cancelled them all by 2001 or 02 I believe, the last being the Celica GT-S

 

[TrievelA7X]

Oh, just thought I'd add I believe this whole "sticking accelerator" issue is a hoax intended to boost U.S. automakers sales, I just don't know who concocted it.

 

[Joey D]

TopGear never included Toyota's in the particular segment I refer to. So there goes your entire.... whatever you were attempting to get at.

You brought up Clarkson, I didn't.

And as Jeremy Clarkson said, if you don't care about driving, how could you be very good at it?

 

[Joey D]

What?

Are cosmic rays really causing Toyota's woes?
WASHINGTON -- It may sound far-fetched, but federal regulators are studying whether sudden acceleration in Toyotas is linked to cosmic rays.

Radiation from space long has affected airplanes and spacecraft, and is known for triggering errors in computer systems, but has received scant attention in the auto industry.

The questions show how deep regulators and automakers may have to dig to solve the mysteries of sudden acceleration. Toyota says it is fixing mechanical problems -- floor mats and sticky pedals -- that explain sudden acceleration in 13 models and 5.6 million vehicles.

But at least half of more than 1,500 recent complaints to regulators involve other models, raising questions whether Toyota has fixed its problem.

An anonymous tipster whose complaint prompted regulators to look at the issue said the design of Toyota's microprocessors, memory chips and software could make them more vulnerable than those of other automakers.

"I think it could be a real issue with Toyota," Sung Chung, who runs a California testing firm, said.

Toyota, which has led the auto industry in using electronic controls, told the Free Press its engine controls are "robust against this type of interference."

Cosmic rays offered as acceleration cause

Electronics makers have known for decades about "single event upsets," computer errors from radiation created when cosmic rays strike the atmosphere.

With more than 3,000 complaints to U.S. regulators of random sudden acceleration problems in Toyota models, several researchers say single event upsets deserve a close look.

The phenomenon can trigger software crashes that come and go without a trace. Unlike interference from radio waves, there's no way to physically block particles; such errors typically have to be prevented by a combination of software and hardware design.

And an anonymous tipster told NHTSA last month that "the automotive industry has yet to truly anticipate SEUs."

Such radiation "occurs virtually anywhere," said William Price, who spent 20 years at the Jet Propulsion Lab testing for radiation effects on electronics. "It doesn't happen in a certain locale like you would expect in an electromagnetic problem from a radio tower or something else."

Toyota staunchly defends its electronics, saying they were designed for "absolute reliability." Responding to the Free Press, Toyota said its systems "are not the same as typical consumer electronics. The durability, size, susceptibility and specifications of the automotive electronics make them robust against this type of interference."

Testing for the problem would involve putting vehicles in front of a particle accelerator and showering them with radiation, a step that experts said would help resolve the question.

"Nobody wants to come out and say we have issues and we need to test," said Sung Chung, president of the testing firm Eigenix.

The phenomenon was first noted in the 1950s affecting electronics at high altitudes; unlike electromagnetic waves, there are no ways to physically shield circuits from such particles. Airplane and spacecraft makers have long designed their electronics with such radiation in mind, through safeguards such as systems that triple-check data.

Only in the late 1970s did researchers discover that a minuscule portion of such radiation falls to earth. It's not enough to harm humans, but as circuits in computers and cell phones on the ground have shrunk to the width of several dozen atoms, the risk of errors has grown. "Five years ago, it was a problem in very few applications," said Olivier Lauzeral, general manager of IRoC Technologies, which tests chips and software for SEU resistance. "In the past couple of years, we've seen a rise in demand and interest."

In an anonymous e-mail last month to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, a tipster said such an error "may be one reasonable explanation for incidents of sudden acceleration," adding that the automotive industry had yet to adapt the techniques used by aircraft firms to prevent problems from SEUs.

NHTSA added the tipster's information to its electronic investigative file on Toyota recalls. The agency declined several requests from the Free Press for comment.

Electronic throttle controls like the ones under scrutiny in Toyotas are widespread in the industry. They're more reliable than mechanical links, they save weight and space, and make other technology, like stability control, possible.

Source: http://freep.com/article/20100316/B...8/Are-cosmic-rays-really-causing-Toyotas-woes

 

[Pupik]

All the runaway Fords, GMs, etcetera? Right here:

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/nhtsa-data-dive-3-117-models-ranked-by-rate-of-ua-incidents/

My name is Pupik, official stunt driver. That's going on the resumé!

Although 3 of the top 5 are usually driven by people who are taking an above-average level of (prescribed) medication.

 

[ItsHim]

You're speaking OLD Toyota.
I'm speaking NEW Toyota.
It doesn't mean they're bad cars, it means all the reasons one would buy a Toyota point in the direction of not being passionate about cars in general, and Toyota has become the old GM, passionless, and soulless drone vehicles people buy for very logical and practical reasons.

Good grief, as far as stereotyping goes, this is right up the with the best

We happen to own one of the first iQs shipped to Europe, and it's roughly 5 years ahead of the competition. There is no single other car that even comes close to the very well thought through design and, for a car so small, superb finish and extras.

The diesel engine alone is worth buying the whole car, the sound design of it is brilliant. It's economic and although a bit laggy, once it hits about 1500 rpm it becomes a happy little rodent eager to do some serious pulling of the cart.

So, think whatever you like. The iQ is a brilliant design, shows that micro cars can work and be comfortable and well equipped and a joy to own with more space in the front seats than I get from a BMW 1 series. But Toyota is with that one a decade ahead of its competition.

 

[Philly]

What?

See, I think that this is proof that America is mostly composed of idiots. I think a politician should feel comfortable blaming driver error for something before turning to Star Trek for answers to a technological question. Or they can continue to camp out in their armored limo motorcades and assume that every driver on the roads is 100% flawless all the time.

Unless Toyotas do somehow end up in the ionosphere regularly. In that case, I've definitely bought the wrong car. A flying Camry would be epic.

 

[Joey D]

See, I think that this is proof that America is mostly composed of idiots. I think a politician should feel comfortable blaming driver error for something before turning to Star Trek for answers to a technological question. Or they can continue to camp out in their armored limo motorcades and assume that every driver on the roads is 100% flawless all the time.

Unless Toyotas do somehow end up in the ionosphere regularly. In that case, I've definitely bought the wrong car. A flying Camry would be epic.

I've done some digging on the whole thing and even wrote a blog entry about how stupid the whole thing was.

Mr. Sung Chung, the president of Eigenix, and the guy pushing for testing is just out to make a buck. Guess what his company specialise in? SEU prevention...the same thing he says is affecting the Toyota's. If SEU were dooming cars don't you think someone would have figured it out by now?

 

[Philly]

Really? REALLY!?

"When we talked with Toyota owners, they all voiced the same desire – to drive the car back to the lot, hand them the keys and pick up a check." So says Steve Berman, a lawyer from Seattle who has filed a class action lawsuit against Toyota on behalf of "dozens" of owners in Arizona and Washington. Fat chance, right?

Not so fast, answers Berman. "Fortunately, we think the law allows for exactly that solution, and we are asking the courts to make it happen." While this isn't nearly the first class action suit filed against Toyota since revelations of the car's possible tendency to accelerate out of control, it is the first such case that seeks a full refund for each car sold.

According to The San Francisco Chronicle, most such suits are only seeking to get back around $500 per owner, or roughly the amount Kelley Blue Book believes the average Toyota has lost in resale value due to allegations the vehicles are unsafe. That would equal more than $3 billion. Berman's suit, though, could add up to many times that amount if successful.

Even if Berman's would-be class action suit fails, Toyota may be in for more rough times courtesy of the Attorneys Toyota Action Consortium (ATAC), which is adding racketeering claims to a number of its lawsuits. Northeastern University law professor Tim Howard, who is coordinating the ATAC, says, "It's become increasingly apparent that Toyota profits were not built on quality products, but on a willful pattern of deception, fraud and racketeering."

In any case, a group of federal judges in San Diego will meet in one week to determine whether the 110 or so class action suits against Toyota should be combined into one single case and whether that case should proceed to trial. We'll be watching.

Toyota is getting sued for a full refund of all the recalled vehicles they sold?

This is exactly why I hate America. Toyota didn't necessarily do anything wrong, and now they're being threatened to be put out of business? Maybe once we have a definitive problem, then we could sue Toyota for knowingly building a car with such a flaw, if they knew about it. Not necessarily counting the covered up recalls, that's a corporate matter, not based on individual cars. But if we're running around blaming everything from sunlight to magnetism to anti-American Japanese people who want to kill the whole country, I don't think any legal action can be taken until we finally know why Toyota's are unintentionally accelerating. And I have a feeling that it'll end up being driver error in large part.

Mr. Sung Chung, the president of Eigenix, and the guy pushing for testing is just out to make a buck. Guess what his company specialise in? SEU prevention...the same thing he says is affecting the Toyota's. If SEU were dooming cars don't you think someone would have figured it out by now?

Oh I'm sure they would have. And I'm sure that you'd see cars of every make and model suddenly getting up and hauling down the freeway. Everything since they started to computerize everything under the engine bay. And it's especially strange since most ECUs (at least the ones that I've seen) are pretty well protected from sunlight by the hood and black plastic.

When's this finally going to go away? In my opinion, they've pretty much ducked out of the scene and now we're just sitting around laughing at Toyota drivers and the government. The media needs to cool it I think.

 

[a6m5]

Circus keeps getting bigger & bigger. And the lawyers, you can't live with them, you can't live without them.

Unless they can come up with something conclusive against Toyota, Toyota is unfairly being singled out. And how is this possible? The U.S. Government. I'm still waiting for the accusations against other manufacturers, but that will never come, will it?

Democrats got the driver's seat in this go-around. They are doing heck of a job, so far. And I thought George W was clueless!

 

[Northstar]

I could see wanting some money back is Toyota never issued a fix to the problem, problem is that they did and it was free.

I also think ATAC's case won't get anywhere since it will be hard to prove Toyota knew of a problem before they went ahead with production.

 

[nobuffalo]

Waiting at a red light tonight a suv came speeding up from behind in the lane left of me, suddenly stopping about 3 feet over the white line. I Think it was a Lexus RX300. About 5 seconds later it jumped forward about 2 feet. Another 5 seconds and this time it went forward nearly a whole car length, light still red. A few moments later after being nearly in the middle of the intersection the light turned green and she sped off.

Conclusion, must have had a sticky accelerator.

 

[Northstar]

Sounds more like someone was in a hurry and was trying to trigger the light to turn green. Happens all the time here, doesn't matter what kind of car. You also have people that will flick their lights on/off really fast trying to trigger the emergency lights.