Toyota to recall 3.8M vehicles over floor mats

[FoolKiller]

They analyzed dozens of the black boxes and determined that all 3,000+ (minus 1) were driver error?

I agree it would be impossible to analyze all boxes, but this sounds pretty bogus to conclude all but one of the 3,000 were driver error based on a few dozen boxes.

Black boxes only contain the data if it happened very recent in the driving history. Someone reporting an incident occurred and then stopped, and so they drove on to work would not have relevant black box data.

Black boxes are part of the car and thus to access the data (without a warrant) the car must be purchased from the owner.

The thing is that the NHTSA's black box review is matching up with Toyota's own black box review. There is clearly a trend in all available data.

Then factor in the fact that if some of the reports happened exactly as detailed and you are left with instances where apparently the transmission and brakes all went out at the exact same time the accelerator issue occurred, but post-incident testing shows all parts function properly. And working brakes out power engines...always.

I think some of this is misleading because these don't appear to be looking into the incidents of reported floormat issues or physically sticking pedals, just the cases claiming that the car began accelerating on its own while the drivers were hitting the brake. Toyota does still have a physical/mechanical issue with their recalled models.

 

[Adamgp]

Toyota's black boxes, if I recall, only record 5 seconds prior to, and 2 seconds after an airbag deploys. Not very much time.

If someone takes their foot off the brake a couple seconds before a crash, it is not recorded, but if a gas pedal physically sticks it's interpreted by the black box analysts as a stupid driver hitting the gas instead of the brake.

I still think it is bold and stupid of them to conclude that 3,000+ incidents were driver error based on data from a few dozen boxes.

 

[FoolKiller]

If someone takes their foot off the brake a couple seconds before a crash, it is not recorded, but if a gas pedal physically sticks it's interpreted by the black box analysts as a stupid driver hitting the gas instead of the brake.

So, in every single case it is a sticking gas pedal that is overpowering brakes (physically impossible) and the driver decided to stop trying the brakes as they were about to crash? I mean, that is what your explanation would imply, and it doesn't explain how the brakes didn't work at all.

The stories also say that they could find no fault in the computers that would cause this to happen, so I am guessing they looked at more than just black box data.

I still think it is bold and stupid of them to conclude that 3,000+ incidents were driver error based on data from a few dozen boxes.

Until someone can explain the impossible physics that had to be in place for it to happen as the drivers claim then this is the most probable answer based on the only factual data available.

 

[homeforsummer]

Toyota critics, especially the overreacting politicians owe Toyota an apology.

Yup... but that's never going to happen...

Blame it on tradition in car design and people's unwillingness to adopt a different control strategy. Motorbikes almost never have this problem, since the motor action required to twist the throttle and squeeze the brakes are entirely different.

You wonder if this sort of thing happens in cars with a floor-hinged throttle pedal? I mean, you have to be pretty dumb to not know the difference between a brake and throttle pedal anyway, but I've always found floor-hinged ones to feel completely different.

Plus of course, the pedal can't get trapped under the carpet on them...

 

[Famine]

I still think it is bold and stupid of them to conclude that 3,000+ incidents were driver error based on data from a few dozen boxes.

They didn't. They concluded that 74 incidents were driver error based on data from a few dozen (hopefully six) boxes:

The incidents include 75 fatal crashes involving 93 deaths.

However, NHTSA has been able to verify that only one of those fatal crashes was caused by a problem with the vehicle, according to information the agency provided to the National Academy of Sciences.

 

[Jondot]

I still don't understand why they didn't shift into neutral. I bet they were all automatic owners and none of them had even the faintest idea what N stood for.

 

[FoolKiller]

I still don't understand why they didn't shift into neutral. I bet they were all automatic owners and none of them had even the faintest idea what N stood for.

Some even claimed, in Congressional testimony, that they shifted into reverse and nothing happened. Thus my comments about how if their stories are true they had a massive throttle, brake, and transmission failure all at once.

 

[niky]

You wonder if this sort of thing happens in cars with a floor-hinged throttle pedal? I mean, you have to be pretty dumb to not know the difference between a brake and throttle pedal anyway, but I've always found floor-hinged ones to feel completely different.

Plus of course, the pedal can't get trapped under the carpet on them...

It happens. I have an aunt who collided with a truck because she panicked and hit the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

If you're barefoot and calm, you can obviously feel the difference (an accelerator is obviously bigger).

If you have shoes with stiff soles, the difference is mostly positional. Unlike us enthusiasts, people often drive with stiff working shoes.

If you're just an inch or two out of position, then the difference is even less obvious... and if you're panicking and think you're standing on the brakes... well...

The easiest redesign would be to put the clutch in the middle and force the entire world to learn left-foot braking . Whichever of the two "left pedals" you're hitting, the car is definitely not going to shoot forward out of a parking spot.

 

[a6m5]

 

[Omnis]

It happens. I have an aunt who collided with a truck because she panicked and hit the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

If you're barefoot and calm, you can obviously feel the difference (an accelerator is obviously bigger).

If you have shoes with stiff soles, the difference is mostly positional. Unlike us enthusiasts, people often drive with stiff working shoes.

If you're just an inch or two out of position, then the difference is even less obvious... and if you're panicking and think you're standing on the brakes... well...

The easiest redesign would be to put the clutch in the middle and force the entire world to learn left-foot braking . Whichever of the two "left pedals" you're hitting, the car is definitely not going to shoot forward out of a parking spot.

NO. My grandpa destroyed his benz because of his left-foot braking. Reversing with the left foot on the brakes and the right foot over the gas is a bad idea. When he turned around to look behind him, his foot pressed on the throttle and, of course, 300hp>brakes.

 

[niky]

NO. My grandpa destroyed his benz because of his left-foot braking. Reversing with the left foot on the brakes and the right foot over the gas is a bad idea. When he turned around to look behind him, his foot pressed on the throttle and, of course, 300hp>brakes.

But he did it by accidentally pressing on the gas.

300hp > brakes only if you're lightly tapping the brakes and standing on the gas. If you're standing on the brakes and tapping on the gas, that'd be the other way around.

But yes, left-foot braking on the road while holding the accelerator in at the same time isn't entirely practical. But then again, when they program all cars to cut the throttle when you're on the brakes, that won't be an issue.

 

[homeforsummer]

If you're barefoot and calm, you can obviously feel the difference (an accelerator is obviously bigger).

I'm not talking so much about the nuances of pedal feel, more the fact that an accelerator pedal is usually quite light to press down and a brake has much less travel and a lot more resistance.

Not to mention the brake pedal in an auto is massive.

 

[niky]

Yeah... but you're still pressing it with the right foot.

Oops... meant longer. yes, the brake pedal is often wider.

 

[FoolKiller]

and, of course, 300hp>brakes.

Either bad brakes or not full application. Under full application of brakes (assuming RWD) your tires will lose grip and spin before it moves the car forward in something much stronger than 300hp.

 

[Philly]

It happens. I have an aunt who collided with a truck because she panicked and hit the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

Stuff like that does happen. It's similar to trying to take off in reverse if you think you're in drive (or 1st.) You just put on the brake and look around to make sure nobody saw your mixup. You do not mash whatever pedal you happen to be pressing at the time and scream out that your car is running away from you.

Going with the positional thing, I think there is plenty of difference between the gas and brake pedal. In order to slow the car, physically moving your foot from one pedal to another should be enough to alert drivers as to which pedal they're on. If that's not enough, nothing will be. The only other thing I can think of is if people hit the gas with the side of their feet while they're on the brakes. And that's a combination of poor pedal placement, driving position (mostly that probably) and poor driving habits. But still, shouldn't the brakes stop the car in that situation?

 

[Famine]

Either bad brakes or not full application. Under full application of brakes (assuming RWD) your tires will lose grip and spin before it moves the car forward in something much stronger than 300hp.

Indeed. In almost all road cars - and many racers too - the tyres will stop gripping quite some time before the brakes do.

 

[Jondot]

Some even claimed, in Congressional testimony, that they shifted into reverse and nothing happened. Thus my comments about how if their stories are true they had a massive throttle, brake, and transmission failure all at once.

Well presumably there's some sort of failsafe in place to prevent you whacking it into auto while doing 90mph. Having said the whole stupid-driver theory, I wouldn't be surprised if a modern auto didn't actually do anything if you stuck it into neutral with the accelerator wide open. Haven't driven one myself, but presumably there's a much higher degree of electronic interference than with a manual.

 

[homeforsummer]

Well I've driven a fair few autos but unsurprisingly never felt the need to shift into reverse while I'm moving forwards, though I suspect there's some failsafe against doing so to prevent utter dimwits from trying to tell the transmission something that would likely destroy it. Autos will go into neutral easily enough whilst on the move (tried that one, works, doesn't do any harm) but reverse (or, God forbid, Park...) is another matter. Why someone would feel the need to try and shift into reverse when neutral is nice and accessible and cuts drive completely is completely beyond me.

 

[Jondot]

Well I've tried (accidentally)* to pop mine into reverse once or twice, and it just makes a nice evil gearboxy noise at you and refuses to engage. If there's a failsafe built into my shed of a thing then I'd imagine anything built afterwards is much the same.



*I'm not a complete idiot. It just happens that my 5th gear sounds a lot like there should be a 6th, so naturally you find yourself trying to engage it once or twice.

 

[Philly]

Well I've driven a fair few autos but unsurprisingly never felt the need to shift into reverse while I'm moving forwards, though I suspect there's some failsafe against doing so to prevent utter dimwits from trying to tell the transmission something that would likely destroy it. Autos will go into neutral easily enough whilst on the move (tried that one, works, doesn't do any harm) but reverse (or, God forbid, Park...) is another matter. Why someone would feel the need to try and shift into reverse when neutral is nice and accessible and cuts drive completely is completely beyond me.

My friends often feel the need to bump my shifter out of "manual mode." so I often end up trying to shift but the shifter won't go into reverse while the car is moving forward by accident. I haven't tried it while holding the lever or with the shift lock disengaged though. It might be possible since you can put the car into reverse while still rolling forward if you're trying to do a multi-point turn.

 

[Eric.]

Well I've tried (accidentally)* to pop mine into reverse once or twice, and it just makes a nice evil gearboxy noise at you and refuses to engage. If there's a failsafe built into my shed of a thing then I'd imagine anything built afterwards is much the same.



*I'm not a complete idiot. It just happens that my 5th gear sounds a lot like there should be a 6th, so naturally you find yourself trying to engage it once or twice.

I don't think you have a failsafe. Reverse gear is not synchronized and that's why you have to be pretty much stationary to engage reverse with a manual.

 

[FoolKiller]

Well presumably there's some sort of failsafe in place to prevent you whacking it into auto while doing 90mph. Having said the whole stupid-driver theory, I wouldn't be surprised if a modern auto didn't actually do anything if you stuck it into neutral with the accelerator wide open. Haven't driven one myself, but presumably there's a much higher degree of electronic interference than with a manual.

As my wife has an automatic Yaris, there is a fail safe for going into reverse. I don;t know when these were put in as I know some older cars don't have them. It will go into neutral while accelerating though, which my wife has discovered a few times, because she thinks the center console is a rest for her purse. It will just rev until it hits the rev limiter, while the car itself begins to slow down.

It also requires keys in the ignition and brake depressed to be taken out of Park, and it must be in Park to remove the keys from the ignition (an annoyance for a manual driver).

 

[Eric.]

It also requires keys in the ignition and brake depressed to be taken out of Park, and it must be in Park to remove the keys from the ignition (an annoyance for a manual driver).

I think that's pretty standard for any automatic. I can't count how many times I've driven my mom's Cherokee somewhere, parked, turned the engine off, and then sat for a couple seconds trying to figure out why the key won't turn all the way to come out.

 

[homeforsummer]

I don't think you have a failsafe. Reverse gear is not synchronized and that's why you have to be pretty much stationary to engage reverse with a manual.

Yup. My old car used to make a nice graunchy clunk if I even had the cheek to put it into reverse whilst rolling forwards at barely walking pace. Not tried it in the current car as I'd prefer not to willfully damage the transmission.

 

[Kent]

Just wanted to mention that recalls like this are the main reason I traded my Corolla. I mean, a 2009 (one of the recalled models) isn't going to have any resale value and because of that I couldn't justify paying it off.
Will be enjoying my Impreza for some time to come.

 

[Eric.]

Yup. My old car used to make a nice graunchy clunk if I even had the cheek to put it into reverse whilst rolling forwards at barely walking pace. Not tried it in the current car as I'd prefer not to willfully damage the transmission.

Isn't that the most embarassing sound ever!? I always try to look around for witnesses.

If I'm moving forward at all (backwards, too, say on an incline) mine will usually grind.

 

[a6m5]

A team of NASA engineers was unable to identify an electronic flaw in Toyota vehicles that could cause potentially deadly sudden acceleration, according to a study released today by the Department of Transportation.

"We enlisted the best and brightest engineers to study Toyota's electronics systems, and the verdict is in. There is no electronic-based cause for unintended high-speed acceleration in Toyotas. Period," U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced today.

The only known causes of the "unsafe and unintended" acceleration in Toyotas were mechanical safety flaws involving the "sticking" accelerators and accelerators becoming trapped underneath the vehicles' floor mat, the study said.

from here

I just saw this on the ABC News. Funny thing about this report, it was reported by non other than the infamous Brian Ross. Ross, along with Illinois Professor were accused of staging experiments that caused panic in the U.S. by making it look like Toyota's flawed electronics were to blame for the unintended acceleration incidents. Maybe it was just me, but he looked little bit nervous reporting the findings, especially when they emphasized how thorough this government study was, and how even NASA was involved to assist with the study.

Considering how both the U.S. Government & ABC went about making it more than clear that accusations were unfounded, I'm thinking some political buttons were pushed. Maybe, maybe not. But I guess the damage has been done. I thought they were really on to something with that space radiation theory.

 

[SagarisGTB]

It has always been pretty clear that this farce of a recall was totally unfounded and the vast majority of unintended acceleration were driver errors. The american media jumped on it really quickly to get one over the "foreign" automaker and it just continued spiraling for Toyota. It just became a game of bullying really.

I hope Toyota advertise this loud and clear. 👍

 

[BrutherSuperior]

It has always been pretty clear that this farce of a recall was totally unfounded and the vast majority of unintended acceleration were driver errors. The american media jumped on it really quickly to get one over the "foreign" automaker and it just continued spiraling for Toyota. It just became a game of bullying really.

I hope Toyota advertise this loud and clear. 👍

It's not an American media vs. foreign OEM thing...not at all. The media has done the same thing to Dow Corning and forced them into bankruptcy. American politicians, well one anyway, is famous for his book "Unsafe at any Speed" and picked on Chevy's Corvair.

Well...turned out the Corvair was not a widow-maker just like Dow Corning implants did not kill women. It's a manufactured opportunity for power hungry people (media/politicians) to go after big corporations, make them gravel, and get some nice face time...facts be damned.