Transgender Thread.

[Famine]

Hate might be a bit of a stretch, but I'd be seriously offended as a transgender person.

You would be more than welcome to be offended at that - or anything else you wish, for any reason at any time - but that's not really any of our business. Taking offence is a very personal thing and it's not beholden on anyone else to avoid.

It's certainly not hateful and, as noted above, there is a case for there being a mental health component to the condition. I'm not sure why that would be offensive - unless you're stigmatising mental health issues - but that would still be your prerogative, and outside our remit.

 

[Carbonox]

Hermaphrodite: Synonymous with intersex, but has fallen out of use.

This is a bit of a stretch, but based on one of those GTA V scenes that has Jimmy playing his online games, this might be some sort of an "intellectual" slur nowadays.

 

[stonesfan129]

Uh...

Hate might be a bit of a stretch, but I'd be seriously offended as a transgender person.

Be as offended as you want. To quote Famine...

And that's the problem.

Take feelings out of it and honestly ponder the question "Can gender dysphoria - the (often very strongly held) feeling or belief that your gender does not match your physiological gender - be categorised as a mental illness?".

Given that the first step of management is often counselling - most manifest symptoms include mental health issues like depression, suicidal thoughts, self-harm and suchlike - I'd suggest that it can. If so, the notion that it is cannot be considered "spewing hate".

It may not be exclusively the case that gender dysphoria is a mental illness - but that would be the opportunity for someone who knows more about it to inform people why, rather than berating them for SPEWING HATE IN CAPITAL LETTERS, wouldn't you think?

Show me someone being unequivocally hateful (either way) and I'll take action to remind them of our rules.


Interestingly for the poll attached to this thread, the concept of gender dysphoria has, at its heart, a binary gender system, so transgenderism (the state of being transgender) requires an exclusively male/female world view, with a common end result being surgical reassignment from one physiological gender to the other.

 

[nataliereed84]

@Famine

Mental health component to the issue is hugely different than calling the entire identity a form of mental illness.

To be frank, I think you're bending over backwards to justify what was a clearly bigoted remark. And that is an example of how bias compromises discussions of any issue concerning a social inequality, and why "objective and neutral; truth is between the extremes" doesn't work as an approach to such discussions.

You're more than welcome to disagree with me. It's just that you seemed to be trying to demonstrate I was unfairly exaggerating when I used the words "spewing hatred", but... I really don't think I was. Instead I think that your standard of what qualifies as transphobic hate speech is just very, very forgiving.

 

[Valkyr1313]

If somebody is born a certain gender and thinks they are something else, I would have to question their mental state.

I'm sorry but what? I don't think that I'm female, I know that I am a girl who was mistaken at birth and for a long time as a boy based on how I looked and presented. And secondly, question my mental state? The only mental issues I have are depression, social anxiety, and gender dysphoria. I'm taking care of the gender dysphoria by transitioning. Note that gender dysphoria and being transgender aren't the same thing. While a lot of trans people experience dysphoria, there are some who don't and there are sometimes people who are cis who experience gender dysphoria.
Now, I'm not saying that it's hateful the way you worded that, but it is ignorant and sort of a stupid way of phrasing things.

 

[The87Dodge]

If somebody is born a certain gender and thinks they are something else, I would have to question their mental state.

Nope. The majority of people born as a certain gender but do not feel like they are that gender are perfectly fine mentally. If you thought and felt like a female, would you think that you are mentally challenged? And it would be offensive to say that to any trans or questioning gender identity person.

 

[Ialyrn]

Take feelings out of it and honestly ponder the question "Can gender dysphoria - the (often very strongly held) feeling or belief that your gender does not match your physiological gender - be categorised as a mental illness?".

Gender Dysphoria was declassified as a mental illness by the APA quite some time ago in the DSM-5 (which we also go by here in the UK), Famine, as has been pointed out to you before. Feel free to keep ignoring the Doctors and scientists, you know, the trained personal who actually help out people like me with Gender Dysorpia; who have concluded after a mountain of research that it is not a mental illness. Your's, or anyone else opinions do not count with that given fact.

Hate might be a bit of a stretch, but I'd be seriously offended as a transgender person.

I am transgender, and I am highly offended by it. One of the worst offenders in this thread, in my opinion, has been @Famine himself; with @Danoff also been up there. Both of them have empirically ignored anything myself and @RedDragon have had to say from the standpoint of actually being trans and having Gender Dysphoria, and coming into this discussion with a wealth of information from Doctors (and other sources) that actually deal with this stuff as a chosen career. The problem is, how the hell do you report an admin? who will most likely have the protection of the site owners! This is why I have barely been on this forum for the past month or so.

As I said to @RESHIRAM5 when he first started this thread, they always become a cancer on the internet; because the bigots always ignore the people who are actually transgender and/or suffer with gender dysphoria; and do/say everything they can to invalidate us.

@nataliereed84 is right on the money, and massive props to them for adding in what they have.

 

[Famine]

Mental health component to the issue is hugely different than calling the entire identity a form of mental illness.

Does that mean that you can provide evidence that there are instances of individuals who feel the need to transition that are entirely without a mental health component?

To be frank, I think you're bending over backwards to justify what was a clearly bigoted remark.

Then you overestimate how much I care about the issue and underestimate how much I care that people speak to each other on this site with the AUP aforethought. For instance:

And that is an example of how bias compromises discussions of any issue concerning a social inequality, and why "objective and neutral; truth is between the extremes" doesn't work as an approach to such discussions.

I merely asked you to provide examples of people spewing hate. You've since backed down from that position, but are still happy to refer to others, pejoratively, as biased and bigoted, based on your own feelings...

This is an issue you seem to care about. You won't generate the same passion in others who do not care as much by insulting them. Try engaging in the discussion from less of a 'those who are not with me are against me' combative mindset and more of an 'educate and inform' one. You'd be surprised how many people here are receptive to a rational argument (and capable of seeing through an irrational one) - that's part of what makes GTPlanet what it is, and why people who don't have a rational argument don't get that much out of this part of it. See below:

Gender Dysphoria was declassified as a mental illness by the APA quite some time ago in the DSM-5 (which we also go by here in the UK), Famine, as has been pointed out to you before. Feel free to keep ignoring the Doctors and scientists, you know, the trained personal who actually help out people like me with Gender Dysorpia; who have concluded after a mountain of research that it is not a mental illness. Your's, or anyone else opinions do not count with that given fact.

Try again. Start with the bit you couldn't be bothered quoting because it suits your own personal agenda:

Take feelings out of it and honestly ponder the question "Can gender dysphoria - the (often very strongly held) feeling or belief that your gender does not match your physiological gender - be categorised as a mental illness?".

Given that the first step of management is often counselling - most manifest symptoms include mental health issues like depression, suicidal thoughts, self-harm and suchlike - I'd suggest that it can. If so, the notion that it is cannot be considered "spewing hate".

I am transgender, and I am highly offended by it. One of the worst offenders in this thread, in my opinion, has been @Famine himself; with @Danoff also been up there. Both of them have empirically ignored anything myself and @RedDragon have had to say from the standpoint of actually being trans and having Gender Dysphoria, and coming into this discussion with a wealth of information from Doctors (and other sources) that actually deal with this stuff as a chosen career.

Nothing that either @Danoff or I have said can be classed as 'spewing hate'.

You've chosen to take offence at literally anything either of us have said because you choose to believe we are bigoted against these individuals (we aren't), or hate them (we don't), or refuse to recognise it as a real thing (we don't). You ignore question after question after question and only seek to take offence at the slightest thing you can find - last time out it was the word "transgendered", which you seized upon at the complete exclusion of anything else.

A few pages ago you seemed absolutely stuck on the fact that I think gender is only chromosomal. I told you otherwise and gave four separate ways that gender can be categorised. This hasn't stopped you wholeheartedly still believing that I think gender is only chromosomal.

Perhaps if you stopped wanting to find people to be offended by so you can play the 'bigot' card, you'd get more out of it. Perhaps you don't want to get anything out of it and just want to play a victim, for some reason.

The problem is, how the hell do you report an admin? who will most likely have the protection of the site owners!

And now without any provocation whatsoever, you're accusing the site owner of also being bigoted against the transgender...

There's a report button on every post, including mine, so the excuse that you can't do it doesn't wash.

This is why I have barely been on this forum for the past month or so.

What, because no-one's posted anything in this thread for a month for you to claim is bigoted?

As I said to @RESHIRAM5 when he first started this thread, they always become a cancer on the internet; because the bigots always ignore the people who are actually transgender and/or suffer with gender dysphoria; and do/say everything they can to invalidate us.

No-one has tried to invalidate you - I wouldn't even know your gender if you hadn't mentioned it.

You have been asked questions. You have ignored them and claimed bigotry - and are now claiming that the people asking you questions are "a cancer".

You're a real credit to your cause.

 

[Tornado]

This is why I have barely been on this forum for the past month or so.

You've been avoiding this forum because a discussion in a specific thread hasn't gone the way you have wanted it to?

 

[Ialyrn]

You've been avoiding this forum because a discussion in a specific thread hasn't gone the way you have wanted it to?

I avoided what became a toxic forum after all the bigots tried their hardest to put people like myself in the same categories as pedophiles and sexual predators, who implied in one way or another that people like me are just mentally unstable, and who tried every known trick under the sun to invalidate who we are as human beings and shut us up.

 

[Tornado]

Oh. So it's more of a persecution complex than anything.

 

[nataliereed84]

I merely asked you to provide examples of people spewing hate. You've since backed down from that position, but are still happy to refer to others, pejoratively, as biased and bigoted, based on your own feelings...

No, I did not back down. I think StonesFan and Rizno's posts equating being trans to mental illness / "something wrong with a person" are examples of spewing hate. I thought I was pretty clear about that?

The fact that I acknowledge different people have different perspectives on what is or isn't hate speech doesn't mean I don't stand by my own position on it. And to be honest I think it's a very strange position to claim hate speech only "counts" if there's a consensus on it. There's NEVER a consensus on it.

But, as much as I hate making these kinds of analogies and try to avoid it, if someone had posted "homosexuality is a mental disorder. If some dude wants another man's dick in his butt, there's something seriously wrong with that person", would you have responded "that might be offensive, but it's certainly not hateful"?

Also, as I said earlier, I do not consider calling people out on their bigotry to be an insult or attack. And I do not think most hateful people ARE receptive to argument, no matter how polite (the best one can do is motivate them to do their own learning). And I think "rational, neutral discussion", in matters of social inequality, inevitably favours the privileged class. I already said all that.

In my opinion, I don't think your judgment on this is a good or rational one. But as I said earlier, in the end this isn't my call to make, it's yours, and I respect that even if I strongly disagree. *shrug*

 

[stonesfan129]

@lalyrn

Giving my opinion - within the Terms of Use of this site - is not bigotry. I'm interested in debate, not forcing everybody to agree with me.

 

[FoRiZon]

I avoided what became a toxic forum after all the bigots tried their hardest to put people like myself in the same categories as pedophiles and sexual predators, who implied in one way or another that people like me are just mentally unstable, and who tried every known trick under the sun to invalidate who we are as human beings and shut us up.

I support you 👍

Honestly it can be like this be it in gender, religion, nationality, etc. Internet tend to vocalize each individual opinion and numerous can really turn you off.

 

[Ialyrn]

Oh. So it's more of a persecution complex than anything.

Why don't you read through all 16 pages again, and while your at it, think how it would make you feel if you was in my shoes.

@lalyrn

Giving my opinion - within the Terms of Use of this site - is not bigotry.

Actually, it is. Try changing the word 'transgender' out for the word 'black', or 'gay' or 'christian' and countless other words with some of the things that has been said in this thread. I can guarantee what you that your words will come across in one way or anything as bigoted to even yourself, as one of those words would eventually hit close to home. Hate speech is hate speech, and this thread is filled with hate towards people such as myself.

@FrzGT thank you.

 

[ryzno]

See my previous post where I explained the difference between gender and race. These analogies don't have any substance, because they're not remotely comparable.

Would have helped if you kept my name in the quote so I knew you quoted me but anyways. I'm not sure if it's this thread or the homosexuality thread, but the analogy I used has been used before, correct me if I'm wrong. Regardless in my eyes, someone who goes through the surgical processes to turn themselves into whatever animal they want be cause it makes them feel right, is on the same level as someone who changes their gender cause it makes them feel right.
Are there a few things I'm dissatisfied with on my body, does it cross my mind? Yeah, but I'm not going to chop off my hammer toe or have it reformed to make me feel better(and it is uncomfortable (or anything else on me). Now while I've talked with @Ialyrn and understand her views on pronouns and verbage, it still doesn't mean I agree. But I have enough respect to call her what she wants to be called.

So if my views classify me as a bigot so be it, have your opinion but don't get mad about it, it's not like we'll ever meet in person.

And I also find it funny how at times, my views offending someone is bad, but their if views offend me I should hush and move along because I'm not part of the group or I'M dumb or ignorant, sounds like preschool boo whooing to me...

Now excuse me while I drink a beer.

 

[stonesfan129]

Why don't you read through all 16 pages again, and while your at it, think how it would make you feel if you was in my shoes.



Actually, it is. Try changing the word 'transgender' out for the word 'black', or 'gay' or 'christian' and countless other words with some of the things that has been said in this thread. I can guarantee what you that your words will come across in one way or anything as bigoted to even yourself, as one of those words would eventually hit close to home. Hate speech is hate speech, and this thread is filled with hate towards people such as myself.

@FrzGT thank you.

So my opinion is bigotry because it doesn't agree with your opinion? As @Famine has asked, point out one example of hate speech in any of these 16 pages.

 

[Famine]

No, I did not back down. I think StonesFan and Rizno's posts equating being trans to mental illness / "something wrong with a person" are examples of spewing hate. I thought I was pretty clear about that?

Do you believe that a disorder that in many cases requires medical (psychological, pharmaceutical or surgical) intervention is not "something wrong"?

Do you believe that mental health issues are somehow lesser health issues?

The fact that I acknowledge different people have different perspectives on what is or isn't hate speech doesn't mean I don't stand by my own position on it. And to be honest I think it's a very strange position to claim hate speech only "counts" if there's a consensus on it. There's NEVER a consensus on it.

But, as much as I hate making these kinds of analogies and try to avoid it, if someone had posted "homosexuality is a mental disorder. If some dude wants another man's dick in his butt, there's something seriously wrong with that person", would you have responded "that might be offensive, but it's certainly not hateful"?

I probably wouldn't have responded at all. If someone had complained about it I may well have pointed out that, however ignorant it is, it's not necessarily hateful.

Also, as I said earlier, I do not consider calling people out on their bigotry to be an insult or attack.

Then you are yet to learn the difference between addressing someone's argument and them as person.

And I do not think most hateful people ARE receptive to argument, no matter how polite (the best one can do is motivate them to do their own learning). And I think "rational, neutral discussion", in matters of social inequality, inevitably favours the privileged class. I already said all that.

What on Earth is "the privileged class"? Would it exclude parts of the English-speaking, internet-using members of this website?

In my opinion, I don't think your judgment on this is a good or rational one.

Why? Is it because I haven't immediately agreed with you? Is it because you think I'm transphobic (I'm not, for reference - but you try telling some people that being emotionless about something is anything other than an assault on their position) for some reason? Or another reason?

But as I said earlier, in the end this isn't my call to make, it's yours, and I respect that even if I strongly disagree. *shrug*

I haven't had a call to make. There have been no reports of hateful behaviour. If there are, it becomes a staff call to make - and that could be any member of the moderation team.

Actually, it is. Try changing the word 'transgender' out for the word 'black', or 'gay' or 'christian' and countless other words with some of the things that has been said in this thread. I can guarantee what you that your words will come across in one way or anything as bigoted to even yourself, as one of those words would eventually hit close to home. Hate speech is hate speech, and this thread is filled with hate towards people such as myself.

Someone hasn't seen the Homosexuality thread, any of the God threads or the Am I Becoming Racist thread.

Incidentally, your colleague @nataliereed84 says that being transgender is not in any way (with capital letters) something you can equate to race or religion, because they're made-up things. I think that's an interesting point - and a discussion you can have between yourselves.

 

[Tornado]

Why don't you read through all 16 pages again

I have read through the entire 16 pages once, and once is enough. Famine's interpretation above of how you've responded to people in this thread is much more in tune with reality than your insistence that Famine and Danoff and whoever else are just spewing hate speech at you that people can't help but be offended at.

 

[ryzno]

So my opinion is bigotry because it doesn't agree with your opinion? As @Famine has asked, point out one example of hate speech in any of these 16 pages.

Probably when I posted the link about the man attacking a child in a woman's restroom not long after the HB2 bills, and somehow I ended up referencing Caitlyn Jenner who still hasn't finished her trasition.....

Is there really an "Am I becoming racist thread @Famine ?

 

[FoRiZon]

@Ialyrn In addition you may not turn off from the forum for that reason. You have to expect this kind of topic on the internet are, well, like that.

Not all will be supportive and some can even be downright offensive at some point and vice versa. Just dont take it very personally.

 

[G.T.Ace]

You would be more than welcome to be offended at that - or anything else you wish, for any reason at any time - but that's not really any of our business. Taking offence is a very personal thing and it's not beholden on anyone else to avoid.

It's certainly not hateful and, as noted above, there is a case for there being a mental health component to the condition. I'm not sure why that would be offensive - unless you're stigmatising mental health issues - but that would still be your prerogative, and outside our remit.

Saying "a transgender person must've a mental health issue in my opinion" or "I question their mental state" are two entirely different things, although both are wrong. The latter is clearly degrading, especially with such sensitive matter, the choice of words is important.

If someone feels he was born in the wrong body, this is of course both an issue and a mental problem, but the mental state of this person is still entirely fine.

I mean, I was born with SMA, my body is nothing what I want it to be, what I would work for if I could.
Do I now have a mental health issue, because my body isn't what my mind feels like it should be? No.
Of course it has nothing to do with gender, but it's still the same in the end.

 

[stonesfan129]

Probably when I posted the link about the man attacking a child in a woman's restroom not long after the HB2 bills, and somehow I ended up referencing Caitlyn Jenner who still hasn't finished her trasition.....

That is not hate speech.

 

[Ialyrn]

Try again. Start with the bit you couldn't be bothered quoting because it suits your own personal agenda:

Gender Dysphroria itself is not classed as a mental illness, hasn't been for at least 4 years in the UK and USA. Anything else on top of that which is considered as a mental illness, such as depression; is a separate thing altogether. So no, I am not twisting things to suit what I am saying.

So my opinion is bigotry because it doesn't agree with your opinion? As @Famine has asked, point out one example of hate speech in any of these 16 pages.

I already have done, and on multiple occasions; read through all 16 pages again and you will see them.

Someone hasn't seen the Homosexuality thread, any of the God threads or the Am I Becoming Racist thread.

Incidentally, your colleague @nataliereed84 says that being transgender is not in any way (with capital letters) something you can equate to race or religion, because they're made-up things. I think that's an interesting point - and a discussion you can have between yourselves.

I am saying that hate speech is hate speech, and what is deemed as an acceptable thing by your standards in this thread, wouldn't been seen as such in other threads. As you well know, I have followed the homosexuality thread; and you have jumped on countless people for spewing out hate speech in that thread towards homosexuality and homosexual people; even banning a fair few in the past.

What you have personally deemed unacceptable in that thread, you have similarly deemed wholly appropriate within this thread. That right there shows double standards based on personal views, when as an admin on a site such as this; you should be totally impartial.

I have pointed out on more than one occasion things that are extremely hateful, such as transgender people being labeled pedophiles. Treatment that you have allowed to go on, repeatedly; and even participated in yourself.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I have pointed out on more than one occasion things that are extremely hateful, such as transgender people being labeled pedophiles. Treatment that you have allowed to go on, repeatedly; and even participated in yourself.

Could you please link to these posts, because I have the feeling there's a brutal misunderstanding somewhere.

EDIT: By the way, pedophilia isn't a mental health issue either, it's a sexual orientation and I don't want to swap with a pedophile, who can only live out his sexuality against the will of minors. That's a horrible fate and I know how it is if you cannot live out your sexuality (no one wants to hook up with a cripple like me...).

 

[ryzno]

That is not hate speech.

Not really, but someone could find it to be considering I insinuated a possible scenario that would probably never pan out. Now I'm not going to incriminate myself anymore, I'd like to keep 0 warning points.

 

[nataliereed84]

-Who or what "the privielged class" is depends on the conversation and context. If we're talking about Black Lives Matter, it'd be white Americans. If we're talking about wealth disparity in the first world, it'd be the 1%. If we're talking about sexism and misogyny, it's men. If we're talking about mental illness, it'd be the mentally healthy. And if we're talking about transphobia, it's cis people. Obviously it gets more complicated than that, since these identities intersect and interrelate, but this isn't complicated language.

- I've already explained why I disagree with your judgment on this. And yes, I think you're biased. That doesn't mean I think you're "a transphobe" in any kind of all-consuming sense, or that you Actively Hate Trans People. But I think that, like most people, your perspectives are shaped by our culture in favour of certain groups. And that, like most people, you don't notice it. It's like a shark being unable to notice that she's wet. That doesn't mean I think you're a bad person, or acting out of malice. It's just that, like everyone, you have biases.

-By "your call" I mean your call on what tone you want to set for your forum, in general.

You've clearly decided to prioritize the freedom of expression for guys like StonesFan and Ryzno to speak their mind, however offensive and/or ignorant it may be, on sensitive topics over the comfort of members who feel personally invested in those topics.

As a result, you've apparently got TONS of trans members all feeling very uncomfortable here. I'd imagine this is also true of LGBT members in general. And I'll certainly be staying far away from general discussion and sticking to car/game/tuning topics from now on, since this thread is a pretty clear signal that while my experiences in the tuning forum and asking for advice have been very very pleasant, this over here is NOT the kind of community I enjoy being a part of.

That's your decision. You're free to make it. I think your community is poorer for it, but you may prefer a hands-off moderating approach to social topics. Or maybe you think freedom of speech is of paramount importance. Or you don't see why it's hard for disadvantaged minorities to simply respect the right of people to disagree. Or maybe you don't even think diversity adds really much to a community anyway. I don't know. It's none of my business. It's not my forum.

Incidentally, your colleague @nataliereed84 says that being transgender is not in any way (with capital letters) something you can equate to race or religion, because they're made-up things. I think that's an interesting point - and a discussion you can have between yourselves.

And this here suggests to me you're not really making an effort to understand the points any of us are trying to make. Hell, I didn't even MAKE any analogy to religion, except with the evolution point when I was trying to talk about the problem with the "fair and balanced" fallacy.

And that is EXACTLY why I don't give credence to "we'd listen if you were only rational and polite!".

Anyway....

I'm not interested in picking fights with mods or getting banned on my third conversation here.

I'll be taking my leave of the general discussion / current events forums. This is clearly not my kind of place.

For any trans people reading, please know you've got my support and empathy. And if you ever feel like talking, or just venting some frustration, feel free to PM.

 

[Famine]

If someone feels he was born in the wrong body, this is of course both an issue and a mental problem, but the mental state of this person is still entirely fine.

I mean, I was born with SMA, my body is nothing what I want it to be, what I would work for if I could.
Do I now have a mental health issue, because my body isn't what my mind feels like it should be? No.
Of course it has nothing to do with gender, but it's still the same in the end.

I've been told that it's not the thought of your body being wrong but the act of seeking a change to it that is the disorder - so having SMA isn't the issue, but trying to have your spine transplanted would be:

The common medical viewpoint is that gender transition (not a mental illness) is the TREATMENT for gender dysphoria (a mental illness). Thus to be a trans person is healthy, but to be suffering and not moving forward is unhealthy.

Which is interesting as I'm also told that it isn't:

The common medical viewpoint is that gender transition (not a mental illness) is the TREATMENT for gender dysphoria (a mental illness).

Gender Dysphroria itself is not classed as a mental illness, hasn't been for at least 4 years in the UK and USA

Which suggests that some experts really need to be having the right kind of words together...

Moving on:

I am saying that hate speech is hate speech, and what is deemed as an acceptable thing by your standards in this thread, wouldn't been seen as such in other threads. As you well know, I have followed the homosexuality thread; and you have jumped on countless people for spewing out hate speech in that thread towards homosexuality and homosexual people; even banning a fair few in the past.

That's probably true - after all, we do take action against people for that.

What you have personally deemed unacceptable in that thread, you have similarly deemed wholly appropriate within this thread.

And that probably isn't. You've taken extreme offence to several things people have posted - including me - and have determined the posters to be transphobic for absolutely no reason. I'm sure some of our members may be, but despite your protestations otherwise, you're so wide of the mark to accuse either me or @Danoff of it that it's almost funny.

That right there shows double standards based on personal views, when as an admin on a site such as this; you should be totally impartial.

It does indeed - of yours.

It would behove you well to remember that no-one here has ever oppressed you - not least because we haven't met you - and to suggest that two members who would argue for your right to do anything you want to your body would lead the charge to denigrate you for having different genitals on it reeks of an out-of-control persecution complex.

But this has been said before. You simply do not want to read posts in this thread with a calm head. I don’t know why.

I have pointed out on more than one occasion things that are extremely hateful, such as transgender people being labeled pedophiles. Treatment that you have allowed to go on, repeatedly; and even participated in yourself

Then you should have absolutely no trouble finding me claiming that transgender people are paedophiles.

When you can't I'm happy for you to contact any member of staff to look at my posts' edit histories in case you think I've edited such accusations out.

-Who or what "the privielged class" is depends on the conversation and context. If we're talking about Black Lives Matter, it'd be white Americans. If we're talking about wealth disparity in the first world, it'd be the 1%. If we're talking about sexism and misogyny, it's men. If we're talking about mental illness, it'd be the mentally healthy. And if we're talking about transphobia, it's cis people. Obviously it gets more complicated than that, since these identities intersect and interrelate, but this isn't complicated language.

This is the internet. There are no identities bar what you claim. The only way to identify who is trans and who is 'cis', or who is male and who is female, who is gay, who is black and who is anything is when they tell you. Hell you may even be a Turing bot and not human.

To suggest that being calm and rational in a discussion on the internet benefits the white, straight, wealthy American 'cis'male is risible at best.

- I've already explained why I disagree with your judgment on this. And yes, I think you're biased. That doesn't mean I think you're "a transphobe" in any kind of all-consuming sense, or that you Actively Hate Trans People. But I think that, like most people, your perspectives are shaped by our culture in favour of certain groups. And that, like most people, you don't notice it. It's like a shark being unable to notice that she's wet. That doesn't mean I think you're a bad person, or acting out of malice. It's just that, like everyone, you have biases.

Then you are wrong.

I have no interest in dividing people into groups over things not in their control. Their choices maybe, but unless they're Da'esh or similar I have little interest in treating them any differently.

-By "your call" I mean your call on what tone you want to set for your forum, in general.

You've clearly decided to prioritize the freedom of expression for guys like StonesFan and Ryzno to speak their mind, however offensive and/or ignorant it may be, on sensitive topics over the comfort of members who feel personally invested in those topics.

Again you should be familiar with our rules as you very recently agreed to them, but you'll find no requirement for people not to cause offence.

This is because people may take offence at anything, for any reason and at any time. ALL content can offend and it is no-one's role to prevent any offence from being taken, as it is impossible. We cannot police it (and wouldn't want to) - what if someone is offended by transgender people? Would we have to eliminate all of them from our community to prevent them from being offended?

You may think that would be an unreasonable mindset. You might be right - but we can't police reason either.

All we can do is prevent hateful and discriminatory behaviour. That's not behaviour that you take offence to, rather actual hate speech. I invited you to find some so that I could act on it. The fact that the best you can come up with is someone passing their opinion that being transgender is a mental illness speaks for your willingness to take offence over their willingness to cause it.

As a result, you've apparently got TONS of trans members all feeling very uncomfortable here. I'd imagine this is also true of LGBT members in general.

I'd imagine it's also true of non-trans and straight members who may also be offended by people's opinions on the topic.

And I'll certainly be staying far away from general discussion and sticking to car/game/tuning topics from now on, since this thread is a pretty clear signal that while my experiences in the tuning forum and asking for advice have been very very pleasant, this over here is NOT the kind of community I enjoy being a part of.

That's your choice - but it's probably because you think it's something it isn't.

Most likely you got this from the same source you got the notion that I'm somehow transphobic or biased against the QUILTBAG community - which also isn't true.

That's your decision. You're free to make it. I think your community is poorer for it, but you may prefer a hands-off moderating approach to social topics. Or maybe you think freedom of speech is of paramount importance. Or you don't see why it's hard for disadvantaged minorities to simply respect the right of people to disagree. Or maybe you don't even think diversity adds really much to a community anyway. I don't know. It's none of my business. It's not my forum.

We think that the AUP is robust enough to have turned GTP into the largest site of its kind over the last 15 years and will be for a good while longer.

And this here suggests to me you're not really making an effort to understand the points any of us are trying to make. Hell, I didn't even MAKE any analogy to religion, except with the evolution point when I was trying to talk about the problem with the "fair and balanced" fallacy.

And that is EXACTLY why I don't give credence to "we'd listen if you were only rational and polite!".

You did cite Rachel Dolezal's choice to make her body more 'black' to match her ethnic identity as incomparable to transgender issues, did you not?

Anyway....

I'm not interested in picking fights with mods or getting banned on my third conversation here.

There is no provision in the AUP for us to ban you for disagreeing with us...

I've no idea why people are so keen to create a big, powerful them for the small, weak us to rail against, but pulling the 'mods might ban me' card fits right into the same camp as the cis-privilege one you tried earlier.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I've been told that it's not the thought of your body being wrong but the act of seeking a change to it that is the disorder - so having SMA isn't the issue, but trying to have your spine transplanted would be:

That's still wouldn't be a mental health issue, that would just be a huge problem for other reaons.
If someone has a broken leg and needs surgery to heal, he'll get it, does he have a mental health issue because he pursues this? It's the same for a transgender person, the body is "broken", it's not in the state the person wants it to be, so that person tries to "fix" it.

Then there are people who don't defy gender in a binary system, but feel like something inbetween, people who don't care if they have a ding, or a dong. So what? That's not a mental health issue, only the symptoms of bad treatment, bigotry, sexism and confusion caused by our society are.

 

[nataliereed84]

One last clarification, just on a matter of some basic facts:

Ialryn and yourself are both incorrect.

Gender Dysphoria is currently in the DSM.

It is dsyphoria that is currently considered the disorder, with transition being the treatment. Being trans is not considered a disorder, but rather a healthy RESPONSE to the disorder.

Medicial profsssionals disagree on details, but the general idea is this:

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness... the feeling of "wrongness" about your body and gender. It causes fairly extreme depression and anxiety, often to the point of suicide.

So-called "reperative therapy" has been proven to be unsuccessful. You can't MAKE a trans person stop feeling that way. No more than you "cure" someone of being gay by therapy. The practice is increasingly seen as barbaric and unethical, but there's still some doctors who defend it (mostly the ones who PRACTICE it, of course).

The recommended course of treatment for gender dypshoria is transition. You have some counselling, make sure the person has thought things through and knows what they're doing, prescribe hormones, anti-androgens monitor progress, etc. If after a couple years the person has shown improvement, is happier in their new gender, etc. and has no physical (or social) counter-indicators, approval for genital reconstructive surgery is provided. Other less major surgeries, such as breast reduction for trans men, can be done earlier with fewer barriers.

Positive outcomes are EXTREMELY high. Over 90% for trans women, and a statistically ASTONISHING near 100% for trans men. The 10% of negative outcomes are primarily associated with social alienation, loss of job, loss of relationship, alienation form family, etc rather than actual dissatisfaction with their bodies.

For minors, the process is to prescribe puberty blockers, like Lupron, rather than hormones. These medications simply DELAY puberty, to avoid irreversible masculinization OR feminization until the patient is old enough to provide informed consent. If the patient decides they wish to remain their birth sex after all, no harm is done. They just discontinue the blockers.

Many trans people think Gender Dypshoria should be removed from the DSM, due to the stigma associated with it. Others say this would be VERY dangerous and stupid, since transition requires medical intervention, and you can't have medical interventions (much less INSURED ones) without a diagnostic framework of some kind. I agree with the latter group.

Feel free to fact-check me on any of this. In fact, I STRONGLY recommend you do so, since "please research" is the main thing I want people to take out of everything I've said here.

Bye bye.