Transgender Thread.

[stonesfan129]

One last clarification, just on a matter of some basic facts:

The recommended course of treatment for gender dypshoria is transition.

Many people have regret after reassignment surgery.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/
http://www.oddee.com/item_99220.aspx
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/04/true-life-questioning-gender-again-video_n_3012842.html

Perhaps transition isn't always the correct thing to do. Isn't that why they offer counseling for it?

 

[ryzno]

For minors, the process is to prescribe puberty blockers, like Lupron, rather than hormones. These medications simply DELAY puberty, to avoid irreversible masculinization OR feminization until the patient is old enough to provide informed consent. If the patient decides they wish to remain their birth sex after all, no harm is done. They just discontinue the blockers.

Now I have a serious question, wouldn't there be complications later on if puberty is delayed? It seems whatever anyone has, it does stop growing after awhile regardless of puberty...

 

[Ialyrn]

@Famine I have already gone over those things multiple times, made massive posts quoting how it all started with that stuff; including your own posts back when the debate over trans individuals, public bathrooms, and @Johnnypenso pulling out this card:

Pedophiles are known to go to extreme lengths to spend time alone with little boys and girls. Given that there aren't going to be testing stations outside every bathroom in the state to determine the validity of your gender convictions, surely there should be a reasonable level of concern that it might open the door to abuse by some sick and some not so sick individuals.

I put all this stuff directly towards you on page 6, post number #158. You glossed over it as me just been overly sensitive to the subject. What exactly to you expect? I am a trans individual with gender dysphoria having people tell me I cant do certain things because of pedophiles, or saying that I am a bigot and sexist toward cis individuals for being the way I am.

How would you feel if our roles where reversed?

Ialryn and yourself are both incorrect.

Gender Dysphoria is currently in the DSM.

I never said it wasn't in the DSM, just that it was declassified as a mental illness itself. It was sometime around 2012 I believe, when the revisions for DSM-5 where still getting looked over.

Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness... the feeling of "wrongness" about your body and gender. It causes fairly extreme depression and anxiety, often to the point of suicide.

According to both of the gender specialists that I personally see (as we have to see 2 separate ones here here in the UK for access the treatment paths within the NHS), this is wrong..

Gender Dysphoria itself isnt classed as a mental illness, but it can be the cause of them; such as depression. This is one of the main reasons it is still listed in the DSM.

Everything else you put is spot on though, and I have gone over it all multiple times myself in this and other threads.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Now I have a serious question, wouldn't there be complications later on if puberty is delayed? It seems whatever anyone has, it does stop growing after awhile regardless of puberty...

It can have sideeffects, but it doesn't have to, everything just starts later. Of course that can cause hormone issues etc. Changing your gender is a pretty difficult and complicated process, so yeah, counseling and therapy before any unchangable things happen need to be done.

EDIT: Holy cow, @Johnnypenso really mixed something up there. Most pedophiles are actually the hetero kind, so as long as there's no "pedo test" this whole thing is nonesense (even then, like I mentioned, not every pedophile is a child molester).

 

[nataliereed84]

@ryzno and @stonesfan129

1) "Transgender Regret" does happen, but it is incredibly, incredibly rare relative to number of people who do not regret it. CERTAINLY isn't common enough to warrant the number of precautions that do exist. And as said, most regrets are connected to the social perspectution of trans people rather than to dissatisfaction with the procedures themselves.

EVERY medical procedure has risk of regret, and transition's risks are well, well, well below the acceptable average. Even things like nosejobs have a higher rate of regret than transition. People exaggerate the instances that do exist to suit their pre-existing anti-trans agenda or biases.

The reasons for counselling are many. Mostly related to the simple fact that it is a very big and major life change, which is stressful and difficult and a large upheaval even under the best circumstances. "Preventing someone from accidentally transitioning" is pretty low on the list of concerns psychiatrists have for trans patients. Generally speaking, nobody who doesn't actually want to transition will get anywhere NEAR far enough into the process to have anything irreversible happen. It's hard. It takes commitment.

2) Risk of complications from delayed puberty are minor, and far less severe than the risks of someone being forced through a feminization or masculinization they didn't want.

3) I'd really prefer to leave this thread. I'm NOT enjoying this discussion, and don't like the way it is being moderated, so please direct further questions to others or, better yet, look into it yourselves.

 

[stonesfan129]

@ryzno and @stonesfan129

EVERY medical procedure has risk of regret, and transition's risks are well, well, well below the acceptable average. Even things like nosejobs have a higher rate of regret than transition. People exaggerate the instances that do exist to suit their pre-existing anti-trans agenda or biases.

What other medical procedures have the risk of regret?

 

[G.T.Ace]

What other medical procedures have the risk of regret?

Tattoos, piercings, surgeries against certain pains which cause other sideeffects, all kinds of beauty stuff....

 

[Ialyrn]

What other medical procedures have the risk of regret?

My other half had to have pins placed in both knee's as a teenager for an issue he was born with, he now has no feeling in his knee's; as the surgeon caused nerve damage to both of them in the process. He has massive amounts of regret over opting for a surgical route.

 

[ryzno]

Transgender Regret

I'm not going too tell you to find it cause it's not in this thread, but I have talked about it and as I said I got schooled about it. I don't recall bringing that up recently or liking his post.

I'd really prefer to leave this thread. I'm NOT enjoying this discussion, and don't like the way it is being moderated, so please direct further questions to others or, better yet, look into it yourselves.

Sorry if you find my un-approving and questioning the subject offensive. I'm also sorry, me being taught to call someone what they want to be called even though I don't agree, you find offensive. She might ignore me but I still respect her. @Ialyrn

Tattoos, piercings

Technically they are not medical, I could give myself one. The only way they become medical is causes of infection, which is rare, unless you get one at the corner store, or they're not a hygienic person.

 

[Danoff]

I am transgender, and I am highly offended by it. One of the worst offenders in this thread, in my opinion, has been @Famine himself; with @Danoff also been up there. Both of them have empirically ignored anything myself and @RedDragon have had to say from the standpoint of actually being trans and having Gender Dysphoria, and coming into this discussion with a wealth of information from Doctors (and other sources) that actually deal with this stuff as a chosen career.

Yea you mentioned this before, and I pointed out that nothing I said disagreed with any of your wealth of information. I thought we had a discussion and you understood my point - at least well enough to know that none of you what you claimed I ignored contradicted it. If not, I'll be happy to have the discussion again if you like.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Seriously, neither @Danoff nor @Famine are transphobic @Ialyrn. I agree that Johnny's post was bullcrap, but I am sure the rest are just misunderstandings.

 

[Famine]

@Famine I have already gone over those things multiple times, made massive posts quoting how it all started with that stuff; including your own posts back when the debate over trans individuals, public bathrooms, and @Johnnypenso pulling out this card:

I put all this stuff directly towards you on page 6, post number #158. You glossed over it as me just been overly sensitive to the subject.

Actually I answered you by asking you the question of how anyone is supposed to know what genitals you have unless you show them.

You've never answered this, instead preferring to call me a bigot, transphobic and, more recently, "a cancer" for daring to ask.

I'm still waiting for the time I said that transgender people are paedophiles, by the way.

What exactly to you expect?

Sensible, insult-free discussion.

I am a trans individual with gender dysphoria having people tell me I cant do certain things because of pedophiles

Have I done that anywhere? I can help with the answer by the way - it's "no".

I asked why, if you look like a woman and go into the women's toilets, it matters whether you possess a vulva or a penis when no-one is going to see it. Apparently this made me evil personified for reasons I've never determined...

or saying that I am a bigot and sexist toward cis individuals for being the way I am.

I'm not sure that anyone has said that - bit you sure get abusive quickly for a perceived slight.

How would you feel if our roles where reversed?

Given that you've been bad-mouthing me for months, I suggest that they are.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Actually I answered you by asking you the question of how anyone is supposed to know what genitals you have unless you show them.

You've never answered this, instead preferring to call me a bigot, transphobic and, more recently, "a cancer" for daring to ask.

Johnny implied that transgender people are pedophiles though. I don't get why pedophilia is mentioned in this topic at all.

 

[Obelisk]

@Ialyrn I would suggest not being so overly sensitive to this. It's quite literally just text on a digital screen - words that don't carry any real meaning or mood behind them. So instead of attacking people like Famine and Danoff, why don't you try understanding their side of the argument?

What I'm suggesting is everyone in this thread switch sides for a page or two so they can learn the opposing side's arguments.

 

[Famine]

Johnny implied that transgender people are pedophiles though. I don't get why pedophilia is mentioned in this topic at all.

Me neither.

After a few pages of questions I did eventually learn that the original toilet obsession regarded someone in a state somewhere trying to pass legislation that required people to go to the toilet appropriate to their birth gender.

I guess some people would object to that because they don't want their kids to have to deal with people who look like men going to women's toilets - probably on the basis that some people who look like men and were born men might try to do the same to look at little girls or something.

Quite why they aren't worried about people who were born as men and look like men going into the gents to look at little boys I don't know - and as I originally mentioned, since you don't strip naked in front of everyone to go to the toilet, I don't know why it matters what your genitals are anyway. However this seemed to have been the wrong thing to ask for some reason.

 

[Exorcet]

Johnny implied that transgender people are pedophiles though. I don't get why pedophilia is mentioned in this topic at all.

To me it looked like he was pointing out that people pretending to be transgender could [try] to take advantage of less restrictive rest room rules.

 

[Ialyrn]

Actually I answered you by asking you the question of how anyone is supposed to know what genitals you have unless you show them.

And this right here shows everything that is wrong with your defense of what @Johnnypenso posted early on in this thread, as well as others. You 'assume' that all trans individuals are going to be 100% able to blend in, when the fact of the matter is that a lot of us, depending on when we began our process of transition, can still look rather male in facial features. Some male to female trans people need to have extensive facial surgery to have any hope of going under the radar.

You've never answered this, instead preferring to call me a bigot, transphobic

And in my opinion you are, and the only reason I have not used the report function on you (or anyone else in this thread); is because as an admin, and if you catch it before anyone else, you could not only delete said report, but quite possibly even the logs of the site if you so decided. I have been an admin on forums using the same software as this, so I know exactly what tools you have access to as an administrator. Not out right saying you would, but quite honestly, what would be the use of me trying to use the report system? My only other option would be to directly message a site owner, but my assumption would be that they would back you, an admin they have built a history and possibly friendship with, over a normal forum user such as myself.

"a cancer"

I said:

As I said to @RESHIRAM5 when he first started this thread, they always become a cancer on the internet

I never said you where a cancer, I said threads like these are. There is a difference there.

I asked why, if you look like a woman and go into the women's toilets, it matters whether you possess a vulva or a penis when no-one is going to see it. Apparently this made me evil personified for reasons I've never determined...

It isnt that people are looking at the genitals, they are looking at facial features, height, muscle mass and tone. Things that are easy to see, because what is between someones legs is hidden; thus not easy to see. This is why girls who look masculine have been ejected from the women's toilets. Note that in most of those cases however, it is often a cis-gendered woman; not a transgender individual.

I'm not sure that anyone has said that - bit you sure get abusive quickly for a perceived slight.

@Danoff was the main person doing that, repeatedly, since the very start of this thread. How many times do I have to point that out to you?

Given that you've been bad-mouthing me for months, I suggest that they are.

The only way you would remotely know that I have outright said anything bad against you, is if you have been using those admin privileges I mentioned above to read the private messages and discussions I have had with other people on this website. Because I have not outright called you anything other than a bigot publicly.

 

[Carbonox]

@Danoff was the main person doing that, repeatedly, since the very start of this thread. How many times do I have to point that out to you?

How many times has he launched a personal attack on anyone in this thread?

The only way you would remotely know that I have outright said anything bad against you, is if you have been using those admin privileges I mentioned above to read the private messages and discussions I have had with other people on this website. Because I have not outright called you anything other than a bigot publicly.

Oops, @Famine better check your privilege

 

[G.T.Ace]

To me it looked like he was pointing out that people pretending to be transgender could [try] to take advantage of less restrictive rest room rules.

Like that would be an issue...

 

[Famine]

And this right here shows everything that is wrong with your defense of what @Johnnypenso posted early on in this thread, as well as others. You 'assume' that all trans individuals are going to be 100% able to blend in, when the fact of the matter is that a lot of us, depending on when we began our process of transition, can still look rather male in facial features. Some male to female trans people need to have extensive facial surgery to have any hope of going under the radar.

Not at all - I'm assuming that when I go for a wazz at a public convenience, it's just about as far from my mind as it can possibly be to scan everyone else for gender conformity.

I've never met a transitioning individual. Or perhaps I have and don't know about it. Or care.

And in my opinion you are, and the only reason I have not used the report function on you (or anyone else in this thread); is because as an admin, and if you catch it before anyone else, you could not only delete said report, but quite possibly even the logs of the site if you so decided. I have been an admin on forums using the same software as this, so I know exactly what tools you have access to as an administrator. Not out right saying you would, but quite honestly, what would be the use of me trying to use the report system? My only other option would be to directly message a site owner, but my assumption would be that they would back you, an admin they have built a history and possibly friendship with, over a normal forum user such as myself.

I don't have that power. I can certainly reject reports but they remain visible to all staff and it's all logged in the AdminCP for Jordan to see.

So report away - if you can find anything against the AUP from me. You're certainly having no luck with that post where I said transgender equals paedophilia. I repeat that you can contact any member of staff to look at all of my post histories if you think I've edited it out.

I await the next excuse why you can't be bothered or why the site owner won't give you fair hearing with a shiver of antici...

@Danoff was the main person doing that, repeatedly, since the very start of this thread. How many times do I have to point that out to you?

Once, if you're right. Hint: You aren't.

Presumably you're not reporting @Danoff because of all the admin powers he has...

The only way you would remotely know that I have outright said anything bad against you, is if you have been using those admin privileges I mentioned above to read the private messages and discussions I have had with other people on this website. Because I have not outright called you anything other than a bigot publicly.

Actually I don't have that power either - only Jordan does. You've been doing plenty of it in public, so it comes as little surprise you do it in private too.

 

[Spurgy 777]

I have a question, (risky thing to do it seems in this thread it seems ) but how exactly do you know as a man that you're thinking/feeling like a woman or vice versa?

 

[Exorcet]

Like that would be an issue...

Is there a problem in asking though?

 

[Obelisk]

And this right here shows everything that is wrong with your defense of what @Johnnypenso posted early on in this thread, as well as others. You 'assume' that all trans individuals are going to be 100% able to blend in, when the fact of the matter is that a lot of us, depending on when we began our process of transition, can still look rather male in facial features. Some male to female trans people need to have extensive facial surgery to have any hope of going under the radar.



And in my opinion you are, and the only reason I have not used the report function on you (or anyone else in this thread); is because as an admin, and if you catch it before anyone else, you could not only delete said report, but quite possibly even the logs of the site if you so decided. I have been an admin on forums using the same software as this, so I know exactly what tools you have access to as an administrator. Not out right saying you would, but quite honestly, what would be the use of me trying to use the report system? My only other option would be to directly message a site owner, but my assumption would be that they would back you, an admin they have built a history and possibly friendship with, over a normal forum user such as myself.



I said:



I never said you where a cancer, I said threads like these are. There is a difference there.



It isnt that people are looking at the genitals, they are looking at facial features, height, muscle mass and tone. Things that are easy to see, because what is between someones legs is hidden; thus not easy to see. This is why girls who look masculine have been ejected from the women's toilets. Note that in most of those cases however, it is often a cis-gendered woman; not a transgender individual.



@Danoff was the main person doing that, repeatedly, since the very start of this thread. How many times do I have to point that out to you?



The only way you would remotely know that I have outright said anything bad against you, is if you have been using those admin privileges I mentioned above to read the private messages and discussions I have had with other people on this website. Because I have not outright called you anything other than a bigot publicly.

Strike one, Ialyrn. Two more attacks and you're losing a friend. And yes, you are attacking people. I will PM you if you do not contribute anything constructive to this thread.

Before you say that you didn't attack anyone, here:

And in my opinion you are

Oh, and @Famine I apologize about the mini-modding. I'm trying to keep people from flipping their lids.

Which reminds me...I can already see an issue here.

Ialyrn and RedDragon are both MTF transgenders, if I recall right. And males - especially from personal experience - are quicker to fly off the handle. Even though the two mentioned members are female, their brains are still built the same way as a regular male. It's possible something got them mad and they aren't calming down.

 

[G.T.Ace]

I have a question, (risky thing to do it seems in this thread it seems ) but how exactly do you know as a man that you're thinking/feeling like a woman or vice versa?

What gender are you and how do you identify yourself?

Is there a problem in asking though?

Yes, if this question seems to imply something pretty offensive. Might not have been on purpose, but I still find it weird.

 

[Exorcet]

Yes, if this question seems to imply something pretty offensive. Might not have been on purpose, but I still find it weird.

Offense is perception though. What if a question is asked out of ignorance or uncertainty? It might offend, but lashing out at it instead of discussing is a good way of losing an opportunity to explain things to someone else. If something is wrong, it should be able to be explained as such.

 

[Spurgy 777]

What gender are you and how do you identify yourself?

A man who thinks and feels like a man (I assume). Short of being in someone else's head, how would I know I think/feel any different from them?

 

[Ialyrn]

Strike one, Ialyrn. Two more attacks and you're losing a friend. And yes, you are attacking people. I will PM you if you do not contribute anything constructive to this thread.

Considering I have posted mountains upon mountains of constructive information in this thread alone, with links to articles and papers on 'biological sex', 'Gender', 'Gender Identity', and physically differences in the brain; and you have the gall to throw down an ultimatum to me for calling out blatant bigotry?

May as well remove and block me on xbox live then if you feel that way. Keep in mind though, Obelisk, that you yourself was only calling them bigots a few short pages ago for exactly the same things for saying the same things to you about your friend, Sarah.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Offense is perception though. What if a question is asked out of ignorance or uncertainty? It might offend, but lashing out at it instead of discussing is a good way of losing an opportunity to explain things to someone else. If something is wrong, it should be able to be explained as such.

Yes, I'm not disagreeing, just voicing my opinion about it, which is a natural thing in this kind of discussion.

A man who thinks and feels like a man (I assume). Short of being in someone else's head, how would I know I think/feel any different from them?

Now imagine you had a woman's body, but would still identify as a male, that's all there is to it, at least with this kind of transgender.

 

[Exorcet]

A man who thinks and feels like a man (I assume). Short of being in someone else's head, how would I know I think/feel any different from them?

You can go further and ask a man what it feels like to be a man. Does that even make sense? It was covered early in the thread by the way, so look back for some good posts on that topic.

I don't really see gender as all that meaningful. I have no reason to treat men and women differently, and I have no reason to think I should have been any different if I was born differently.

 

[Obelisk]

Considering I have posted mountains upon mountains of constructive information in this thread alone, with links to articles and papers on 'biological sex', 'Gender', 'Gender Identity', and physically differences in the brain; and you have the gall to throw down an ultimatum to me for calling out blatant bigotry?

May as well remove and block me on xbox live then if you feel that way. Keep in mind though, Obelisk, that you yourself was only calling them bigots a few short pages ago for exactly the same things for saying the same things to you about your friend, Sarah.

Yes, I did have a fit of rage. Yes, it was out of character. It was not justified, however. They were simply expressing an opinion.

I was on your side - but you need to calm the hell down, because constantly calling someone bigoted, especially a Moderator has landed many people on the Banned User Log.

Also, I will not answer any PM messages from you, Ialyrn. This matter is for public eyes only.