Transgender Thread.

  • Thread starter Com Fox
  • 2,193 comments
  • 123,507 views

Transgender is...?

  • Ok for anyone

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Ok as long as it's binary (Male to Female or vice versa)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wrong

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No one's business except the person involved

    Votes: 1 50.0%
  • Don't care

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
^Please refrain from reporting posts you disagree with. The mods won't be happy.

I'm kind of in the middle of this now, since both sides seem to be making more sense. The whole thing with danoff's been cleared.

You can't justify a feeling a person has over their gender, but I can understand where people get confused and need clarification.

By the way, I have three transgender friends and it's a bit confusing for me sometimes so I have to ask them if I forgot the right pronoun to use.
 
^Please refrain from reporting posts you disagree with. The mods won't be happy.
I won't, as that's not the criteria I used.

Have you seen how often I disagree with people? Regardless of that, I think I have never once reported a post for my own sake.
 
And finally: for the last time transgendered is not a word. Being trans is not a verb. You don't stop being transgender like you stop cookibg or eating or sleeping. It's an adjective used to describe a person. I'm transgender in the same way that I have brown hair. They both describe me.

Transgender was not a word until it was invented. Similarly for cisgender, and basically every other word in our language. Having trans-ed is a verb, and is past tense. Transition would be a verb in this usage, and would be something to describe a past event. Having transitioned, for example, from one gender to another would be an excellent description of a transgender person. So it makes sense to me that that person would be transgendered - ie: having transitioned between genders.

And this discussion, right here, is kinda my whole point in this thread. Getting uppity about something that is totally meaningless and just an opportunity to correct or assert authority over others is not only not going to win anyone over, and will ultimately ostracize you, but is also quite petty and, frankly, immature. To be clear, I'm not saying you're immature, I'm saying that correcting someone over something meaningless for the purpose of being able to correct them is immature. My response is the same in both cases.

"How dare you call me 'she', don't you know from my facebook page that I identify as a man?"

My response: I don't care. You'd be surprised how little the various aesthetic and person preferences of my friends matter to me. I'll try to remember next time.

"How dare you use the word transgendered. It's not the word our community has stamped in approval."

My response: I don't care. Was I confusing? Were you unsure of what I meant? No? Why are we discussing this then? I'll try to remember next time.

"How dare you call me Robert, don't you know I go by Bob?"

My response: I don't care. Was I confusing? Is Robert not also a name that works? Why get upset about this? I'll try to remember next time.

So, for hopefully that last time, start paying attention to what matters and let go of the nonsense like whether someone uses the term you like instead of another term that basically works just as well.
 
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I voted Don't care because I don't know what transgender is and I only thought there were male and female but after reading this thread I am beginning to think I need to do some homework.
Seriously since when as there been more than male and female? and what are the other one/s if not male or female?
im-confused-smiley-emoticon.gif
 
I voted Don't care because I don't know what transgender is and I only thought there were male and female but after reading this thread I am beginning to think I need to do some homework.
Seriously since when as there been more than male and female? and what are the other one/s if not male or female?
im-confused-smiley-emoticon.gif

According to tumblr literally anything.
 
Demi-greysexual inter-hermaphro-triforce-doubleshot-gender-venti-frappucino-nocream.

I must be older than I think I don't understand a word of that, no offence I am lightyears away from modern times.

I just googled tumblr see what it is looks like one of those facebook sites where people go just to try and get noticed lol
they should chuck all those sites together and rename them Look at Me Please Everyone.:lol:
 
I must be older than I think I don't understand a word of that, no offence I am lightyears away from modern times.

I just googled tumblr see what it is looks like one of those facebook sites where people go just to try and get noticed lol
they should chuck all those sites together and rename them Look at Me Please Everyone.:lol:
Don't feel bad, I'm only 18, and the only thing I knew was the Starbucks order at the end.
 
I must be older than I think I don't understand a word of that, no offence I am lightyears away from modern times.

I just googled tumblr see what it is looks like one of those facebook sites where people go just to try and get noticed lol
they should chuck all those sites together and rename them Look at Me Please Everyone.:lol:

Don't feel bad, I'm only 18, and the only thing I knew was the Starbucks order at the end.
I got the following and mashed them together. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just sharing the definitions.

Demisexual: Someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction without having a strong emotional bond.
Greysexual: Contraction of grey-asexual. Someone who may experience mild sexual attraction (yes apparently that's a thing).
Intersex: Someone born with sexual anatomy that does not fit the typical definitions of male or female.
Hermaphrodite: Synonymous with intersex, but has fallen out of use.
Triforce: A logo from Zelda.
Doubleshot-vent-frappucino-nocream: The average white-girl drink from Starbucks.
 
Triforce: A logo from Zelda.
The Hojo called. They want their Mon back. :P

Seriously though. Tumblr is crazy with its definitions. I support trans people (I am even good friends with one) but Tumblr just throws logic out the window and complains about anything they can.
 
If somebody is born a certain gender and thinks they are something else, I would have to question their mental state.
I'm going to tell you right now, I said the same thing, get ready for a slew of posts coming.
 
Man y'all BADLY BADLY need to actually TALK to some actual trans people before spending fifteen pages theorizing on HYPOTHETICALS about their motives and understanding and identities. You are so far off the mark it'd be hilarious if it weren't so disturbing and connected to a culture of stigmatization and harm.
 
Man y'all BADLY BADLY need to actually TALK to some actual trans people before spending fifteen pages theorizing on HYPOTHETICALS about their motives and understanding and identities. You are so far off the mark it'd be hilarious if it weren't so disturbing and connected to a culture of stigmatization and harm.

I don't know their motives or understand their identities. But wouldn't you think something was wrong if a person was physically a male but thought they were something else?
 
Man y'all BADLY BADLY need to actually TALK to some actual trans people before spending fifteen pages theorizing on HYPOTHETICALS about their motives and understanding and identities. You are so far off the mark it'd be hilarious if it weren't so disturbing and connected to a culture of stigmatization and harm.

It's not exactly clear what you are saying since you didn't quote anyone, but I think this thread is full of a lot of good discussion. Also, while suffering from a certain issue might give you a unique perspective on it, that doesn't make your opinions more valid than someone else lacking your experience. Let's also not forget that everyone can experience things differently. It's human nature to group together with similar people, especially when threatened, but it's very unlikely that everyone in the group feels exactly the same about everything.

I don't know their motives or understand their identities. But wouldn't you think something was wrong if a person was physically a male but thought they were something else?

This can be complex. Society creates lots of pointless stereotypes and some of them can be reinforced strongly. Someone might fit a stereotype very well, except for their sex, or race, or age, etc. If they don't realize that these stereotypes are just artificial social constructs, it can lead them to feel as if something is wrong with them. A person may say that they think they are male/female, but it might really mean that they don't feel comfortable with their gender stereotypes.
 
BTW, here's the thing about the stupid-as-all-hell Rachel Dolezal racial analogies:

Race and gender DO NOT WORK THE SAME WAY. They are not remotely the same thing.

Race was an ENGINEERED SOCIAL ENTERPRISE, designed to enable the colonial and slavery projects by classifying different "categories" of humans based on entirely arbitrary collections of phenotypes / ethnicities. And then saying some of those categories are inferior to others.

Today, race primarily has meaning and substance for people because of SHARED CULTURAL EXPERIENCE. There's no neurological or genetic or underlying "subtance" to it, no "real" difference between a black person and a white person and an Asian person and a Latin@ person. The differences are purely cultural and experiential, a shared experience of specific oppression or specific privilege and that's where the term has meaning and weight for people's identities and political discussion. Dolezal DID NOT SHARE that cultural background, but laid claim to it. Hence offense.

Gender, on the other hand, is an EMERGENT CULTURAL SEMIOTIC SYSTEM. It is a non-fixed, mutable, constantly-shifting "language" we apply to understand, express, communicate and read human sexual difference. SOME of that difference has to do with anatomy and bodies, but it also has to do with our desires (sexual, romantic, etc), how our desires relate to and manifest through out bodies, how we relate to our bodies, who we desire, how we would like to be desired, neurology, etc. And, making things more complicated, how we relate back to Gender itself.

THAT'S why changing or adapting your identification relative to gender is not comparable to doing so with race.

Even the physical/anatomical part isn't purely "do you have a dick or a vulva". It's also size of clitoris/penis, presence or absence or severity of hypospadia, descent of testicles/ova, breast development, hormone levels, body hair, skin, XX/XY/XXY/XXYYY/XYY/XO, activation or deactivation or the SRY gene... a THOUSAND different variables.

And don't come at me pretending XY/XX is the most important. We had gender for TENS OF THOUSANDS of years before we even knew about chromosomes. People don't invalidate trans people's genders because they believe gender is chromosomes, they define gender by chromosomes SO THEY CAN INVALIDATE TRANS PEOPLE'S GENDERS.

And this "they think they're a different gender" / "they're CONFUSED" stuff is complete and total BS. Every trans person is PERFECTLY aware of what anatomy they have, how society defines gender, how their identification runs contrary to that, etc. Just because someone DEFINES gender differently than you doesn't mean they're IGNORANT, CONFUSED OR MENTALLY ILL.

And I can absolutely promise that every single trans person has given a thousand times more thought and research into the subject and nature of gender than you have in the five minutes it took to cook up the angry, condescending, bigoted opinion you wanted to post on the internet. It takes more than reading one little poorly-researched newspaper editorial and watching an episode of South Park to understand the issue. And given that you're talking about ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS, who face a considerable amount of persecution already, I THINK it's kind of IMPORTANT that you do your damn research before deciding to spew your completely uninformed hatred all over every public forum you find just cos it happens to be topical right now.

And as for bathroom bills: Men pretending to be women to go into bathrooms for ulterior motives was never a problem until AFTER y'all tried banning trans people from using them, and transphobic dudes decided to start entering them to "prove a point" or "protect the women".

It's not exactly clear what you are saying since you didn't quote anyone, but I think this thread is full of a lot of good discussion. Also, while suffering from a certain issue might give you a unique perspective on it, that doesn't make your opinions more valid than someone else lacking your experience. Let's also not forget that everyone can experience things differently. It's human nature to group together with similar people, especially when threatened, but it's very unlikely that everyone in the group feels exactly the same about everything.

Yes, firsthand experience of an issue almost always makes someone's perspective more informed and valid. There's sometimes exceptions, but they're incredibly rare, and certainly missing from the last few pages of this thread.

I don't know their motives or understand their identities. But wouldn't you think something was wrong if a person was physically a male but thought they were something else?

Your question is a non-starter. You're coming at this from the (incorrect) assumption that trans people are LITERALLY unaware of the nature of their own sex. They are perfectly aware, they just approach it with a different understanding than you do.
 
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I THINK it's kind of IMPORTANT that you do your damn research before deciding to spew your completely uninformed hatred
Please let me know who has been spewing hatred. As you'll know from recently agreeing to our AUP, that's not acceptable here on GTPlanet:
You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack any individual or any group.
The staff will take action against individuals who have been spewing hatred.
 
The various statements about "something WRONG with someone who thinks they're the wrong gender", the equivocation of being trans with mental illness, and the implication that trans people are some kind of dangerous phenomenon ("glad I'm not working at Target!") certainly qualify as spewing hatred, or at the very least contributing to seriously dangerous social stigma against a vulnerable minority. I'd also say that the many, many highly misinformed statements ("think they're women cos they're stereotypically feminine!" etc- trans women are not drag queens) are also highly dangerous and bigoted, if not necessarily deliberately hateful.

But I know different people have different standards. If I were modding here, I would've dropped the hammer on this awhile back. But it's not my call to make. If you feel this isn't actual hate, attacks or harassment towards a group (I certainly do), that's your decision to make. But looking this over from the perspective of someone with personal connections to this community, this thread's past few pages seem pretty far from constructive, respectful, informed discussion.

EDIT: I haven't issued any reports, nor am I actively requesting any action against anyone; I'm very new here, I don't think I've "earned the right" so to speak. Also, as said, standards vary. Trans rights is a hot, buzzy topic right now, with the increase in exposure and discussion vastly exceeding the pace at which people's understanding and awareness of the topic has improved. Basically, trans rights is advancing extremely rapidly, while the average person is still approaching the issue with what they learned from TV / Movies ten or twenty years ago. So I don't actually EXPECT people to be very understanding, informed or respectful unless it's a space or forum that is specific to feminist, women's or LGBT issues. But I reserve the right to be annoyed when they aren't.
 
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Viewing transgenderism as abnormal is not hatred, it is a different opinion.

Transgenderism isn't a word.

Also, you didn't say "abnormal". That would be disparaging, but at least TECHNICALLY correct, given that it's a lot less common for someone to be trans than otherwise.

You said WRONG.
 
If you feel this isn't actual hate, attacks or harassment towards a group (I certainly do), that's your decision to make. But looking this over from the perspective of someone with personal connections to this community, this thread's past few pages seem pretty far from constructive, respectful, informed discussion.
It's either spewing hatred or it isn't. If it appears so from one perspective but not another, it isn't - it's just something taken personally.

I've seen lots of instances in this thread of people asking questions and being immediately dismissed as hateful or bigoted. That's not exactly conducive to sensible discussion either.

So perhaps the people who feel very strongly about either side could rein in the limits of their emotion and address each other a little more reasonably we would all benefit.


However, my request for you - or anyone - to let me or anyone else on the staff know where people have been spewing hate remains.
 
As said, @Famine , I feel the most clear-cut example of hate/bigotry would be stonesfan129's open treatment of transgender identities as a form of mental illness, and 'something wrong with a person". I don't think there's any ambiguity to that.

Maybe you see that as simply a difference of opinion, but I'd disagree.

And absolutely ANY instance of hatred can be viewed as differences of opinion. The world is FILLED with things like someone saying "I'm not a racist but..." and then going on to say something horribly racist. The MRA and PUA communities don't think they're sexist. Many white supremacist groups don't think they're racist, just "proud of being white" or "preserving European cultural tradition". Even lots of nazis thought of themselves as "respecting" the Jewish people. Standards ALWAYS vary.

Also, I don't think "neutrality between two sides" is always necessarily an ideal; especially one of the sides is considerably more informed than the other. It's the whole "fair and balanced journalism" fallacy: the kneejerk belief that in ANY debate between two extremes, the truth must always be in the middle. But that's not always the case. Creationism vs. evolutionary biology, for instance. The hardcore creationists believe that a perfectly literal interpretation of Genesis is the literal objective truth of how life came to be, whereas the entire (credible) scientific community has consistently proven and verified the theory of evolution (in science, "theory" does not mean "guess" like it does in common parlance. It means a working, falsifiable, proven, predictive and explanatory model for a given set of phenomena. When it's NOT proven, it's a "hypothesis"). The truth is not "somewhere in the middle". The scientists clearly have the empirical truth. Christians may adapt this by reading Genesis in terms of metaphorical and poetic truth, which is perfectly fine and I respect that, but in terms of the cold facts of evolution, one of the "two extreme viewpoints" is clearly the correct one.
 
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And that's the problem.

Take feelings out of it and honestly ponder the question "Can gender dysphoria - the (often very strongly held) feeling or belief that your gender does not match your physiological gender - be categorised as a mental illness?".

Given that the first step of management is often counselling - most manifest symptoms include mental health issues like depression, suicidal thoughts, self-harm and suchlike - I'd suggest that it can. If so, the notion that it is cannot be considered "spewing hate".

It may not be exclusively the case that gender dysphoria is a mental illness - but that would be the opportunity for someone who knows more about it to inform people why, rather than berating them for SPEWING HATE IN CAPITAL LETTERS, wouldn't you think?

Show me someone being unequivocally hateful (either way) and I'll take action to remind them of our rules.


Interestingly for the poll attached to this thread, the concept of gender dysphoria has, at its heart, a binary gender system, so transgenderism (the state of being transgender) requires an exclusively male/female world view, with a common end result being surgical reassignment from one physiological gender to the other.
 
First, I often use all-caps simply for emphasis in a sentence. It's not meant to be "yelling". Like see above where I capsed things like "HUMAN SEXUAL DIFFERENCE". I should probably be less lazy and use the bold though. That's on me, sorry.

Writing "I feel" is just a way to take the edge off my words and acknowledge that we have different viewpoints here. I'm not downplaying my views or trying to frame myself as overly emotional, I'm trying to be respectful towards your position as a moderator, and acknowledge that my relative newness to this community means I don't have a lot of clout to throw around.

I'm not trying to berate anyone. I am expressing frustration, certainly. But part of the problem is that I've conversations like this many times (and similar ones on other issues too, like homosexuality, feminism, etc), and people very rarely actually listen or acknowledge that they were wrong or misinformed, no matter how hard you try to be patient and kind and explain things carefully. So instead I do my best to try to encourage people to educate themselves (where the need to "save face" in a debate won't get in the way of actual learning) and vent my frustration, without going so far as to be guilty of abuse / harassment / personal attacks myself.

But I do NOT consider calling someone out on their bigotry to be an attack. I think one of the big problems with our society is we treat being CALLED a racist / misogynist / homophobe / whatever equivelent to, or worse than, the actual bigotry.

And I think the right of the oppressed to own and express their anger is an important thing. "If you're not respectful and polite, no one will listen" is often just another form of "stay in your place, don't get uppity". And CONDITIONAL support for minorities is never genuine. If you only support a given group's rights when they're nice to you, you don't really support their rights.

The question of whether gender dysphoria is a form of mental illness is an EXTREMELY different question than whether or not BEING TRANS is a form of mental illness.

The common medical viewpoint is that gender transition (not a mental illness) is the TREATMENT for gender dysphoria (a mental illness). Thus to be a trans person is healthy, but to be suffering and not moving forward is unhealthy.

That's an extremely important distinction, and again, I don't think there was any ambiguity as to which side of the fence stonesfan was falling on. You also didn't address "something wrong with a person", which adds a clear context that he was NOT speaking from a place of empathy for the psychological suffering of trans people.

But...

I don't think anyone's likely to agree with me on any of this. So I'll back out of this thread.

However, everyone, if you only listen to one thing I've said, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take the time to do actual research and talk to real trans people (of different backgrounds), and remember that what you see in movies and TV shows is not the reality.

For example, most trans people are NOT stereeotypically or exaggeratedly feminine. There's butch trans women, trans dandies, trans tomboys, trans lesbians, trans gay men, etc. And of course, lots of trans people don't even identify WITHIN the binary at all. As a general rule, trans people are living their lives in DEFIANCE of gender stereotypes, not trying to alter their bodies to cleave to them. And heck, just look upthread at RedDragon: there's a trans woman who is clearly happy to share her "stereotypically masculine" enjoyment of cars and videogames.

When you base your views of trans people on what you think, or imagine, their motivations, feelings, experiences might be, or base your idea of how they behave and dress on what you saw in TV, and frame your undeerstanding of the issues from articles or books written by people who aren't trans themselves (just being gay doesn't make someone understnd trans stuff. Dan Savage, for instance, is NOTORIOUSLY awful on the subject of trans issues)...and if y ou don't actually talk to them, or read their own books/blogs/etc, you're working from an IMAGE created by a society that ALREADY fails to really understand them, and compounding that with your own biases.
 
When you base your views of trans people on what you think, or imagine, their motivations, feelings, experiences might be, or base your idea of how they behave and dress on what you saw in TV, and frame your undeerstanding of the issues from articles or books written by people who aren't trans themselves (just being gay doesn't make someone understnd trans stuff.
The same people who questioned me for saying it's a mental disorder and wrong, are the first people to say someone who believes they are an animal or "pastafarian" are loonies. So while we can agree on somethings, we'll never agree on all.
 
However, my request for you - or anyone - to let me or anyone else on the staff know where people have been spewing hate remains.
Uh...
If somebody is born a certain gender and thinks they are something else, I would have to question their mental state.
Hate might be a bit of a stretch, but I'd be seriously offended as a transgender person.
 
The same people who questioned me for saying it's a mental disorder and wrong, are the first people to say someone who believes they are an animal or "pastafarian" are loonies. So while we can agree on somethings, we'll never agree on all.

See my previous post where I explained the difference between gender and race. These analogies don't have any substance, because they're not remotely comparable.
 
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