Transgender Thread.

[TenEightyOne]

"Further, is it not sexist if someone thinks to themselves "Women are so stupid"? It may be that no other person will ever hear the sentiment, and will remain unaffected by it - but surely it's still sexist. It's a sexist thought.

It is indeed. I would struggle to extrapolate that sentiment to such a thought as "I feel female".

 

[Exorcet]

It is indeed. I would struggle to extrapolate that sentiment to such a thought as "I feel female".

There is the implication that some feelings are off limits to males. That is unless what is actually meant is that the person saying such a thing would prefer to be female I suppose.

 

[LeMansAid]

It is indeed. I would struggle to extrapolate that sentiment to such a thought as "I feel female".

As said previously, female (outside of chromosome definition) doesn't exist until we create it. The statement "I feel female" has either too much, or too little information in it. "I feel kind-hearted" is fine, but once "female" is used as a descriptor, a "because" needs to be added to the sentence. "I feel female because I'm kind-hearted" is sexist. I'm assuming that the reason that people have steadfastly refused to answer @Danoff's ad nauseam repeated question of "What does it feel like to be male/female?" is that the answer will be sexist.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm assuming that the reason that people have steadfastly refused to answer @Danoff's ad nauseam repeated question of "What does it feel like to be male/female?" is that the answer will be sexist.

I simply can't answer it. I know what it feels like to be me and I feel that being a man is correct. I suspect the answer to @Danoff's question would be expressed in differences rather than empirical sensations... I'm simply don't have enough information to form an answer.

 

[LeMansAid]

I simply can't answer it. I know what it feels like to be me and I feel that being a man is correct. I suspect the answer to @Danoff's question would be expressed in differences rather than empirical sensations... I'm simply don't have enough information to form an answer.

Why can't you just say that you feel the way you are is correct? That you don't feel at odds with yourself, and are without any need to change yourself. It's when introducing gender as a descriptor that complications arise. "Differences"? Not exactly sure what you mean when you say that. Maybe you could clarify to save me from leading myself up the garden path.

 

[1241Penguin]

This is about whether it's "natural" for a man to be more comfortable feeling and behaving like a woman, whatever that may be for them.

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't believe anyone has argued one way or another if it is naturally intrinsic for someone to want to identify with female/feminine/womanly or the opposite attributes. What is being argued though is that there is no need for labels to change along with your beliefs or behaviours.

 

[Winters Noble]

This is not of personal experience, but this is what I noticed about transgendered individuals that I have come into contact with. I.e, I know a transgendered woman (male physically). She knew she was a woman because she just felt that way. It was not to mark herself as normal in the eyes of society and the accompanying attributes and mannerisms.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff

Just some thoughts I'm going to throw out here:

I think a lot of the feelings about gender come not just from internally feeling like a specific gender, but from knowing how society treats people based on their appearance and behavior, and assigns them gender-terms based on that. Identifying as a certain gender may just be a matter of convenience for people who already want to look, dress, and behave in ways that are generally regarded as being more like one gender than another. Sexist? Maybe, but it's more a reaction to the inherent sexism of society than it is a personal sexism.

It may well be. But capitulation to society's ignorant labels is not a healthy way forward.

If "I feel like a woman" is the best description someone can come up with for how they feel, why should that be sexist?

As has been stated many times, whatever is cited as the reason for that is necessarily sexist or arbitrary.

I mean, if I say "Barack Obama looks like he's black" that's not racist, that's just observation. There could be a better way to describe it, but he sure looks like a black man to me.

If I say "I look like I have a penis", when I'm naked, it can be factual. You'd be able to see for yourself whether it was true. I could say "I look like I have a nose", or "I look like I have two eyes". But if I say "I look like a man"... tell me what that looks like without being sexist. As previously stated in this thread, many men look like women, and some of the most attractive women have strikingly male features. You could distance yourself from it slightly and say "I have stereotypical male features", or "I look like I have features consistent with a level of testosterone typical of a healthy male with a functioning pituitary"... and that's fine, very factual. But then when you start insisting that everyone else call you male because you have features like that, you tread on all of the women that have those features, and all of the men that don't. You start to say "this definition is the right one".

Nothing. Happy is simply the word I have chosen to ascribe to this specific set of similar feelings. From my observations of others behaviour and their described experiences...

What experiences and behaviors specifically?

What's your point with this?

My point is you have a reason to think you're feeling a certain way.

Nope, you disagree? Or nope, you agree that it's not a valid basis for that argument?

It's not a valid basis, and I didn't use it as one.

You know, you could stand to actually attempt discussion instead of snapping off difficult to interpret one word answers. I'm not actually sure what your response to either of these points are.

Just trying to be efficient with my time. I have kids and a job and get kinda busy. Here's your answer:

I can see how someone might not be able to grok how it might feel, but to dismiss the possibility that others might be able to feel that way seems pretty closed minded for someone who is supposedly attempting to apply logical thought.

Nobody is sexist because they feel. They're sexist for ascribing what they feel like to some notion of womanhood.

Even without all social pressure, you can take a person and stand them in front of two groups of people. One group is a varied selection of men, the other a varied selection of women.

Ask the person which group they most identify with with regards to gender.

Some will say the men. Some will say the women. Some will say both or somewhere in between. Some will say neither.

That's OK and completely normal. This is not something that we're trying to stamp out, like homosexuality 100 years ago. There are and will probably always be two sexes. The human brain being what it is, sometimes people will feel like they belong more in a group that they're not in (despite in this case being placed in a group by biology).

This is not about getting odd looks around town. This is about whether it's "natural" for a man to be more comfortable feeling and behaving like a woman, whatever that may be for them. Or whether this is something that is all in people's heads and they're just making it up because society.

Why do they need to associate with either group? What's with the binning and categorization. Why can't they just be who they are and not get so hung up on what pronoun is used? Why the strong desire to fit into a mold? A mold that doesn't fit anyone perfectly anyway.

I simply can't answer it. I know what it feels like to be me and I feel that being a man is correct. I suspect the answer to @Danoff's question would be expressed in differences rather than empirical sensations... I'm simply don't have enough information to form an answer.

You, and everyone in this thread, is in just as much a position to answer these questions as any transgendered person. You have a gender and you have a sex. Why do you feel that your gender is correct? What reason would you give me for why I shouldn't use the word "she" when referring to you? If you'd get upset or indignant about that pronoun, why so? What would be the harm in me referring to you as "she"?

This is not of personal experience, but this is what I noticed about transgendered individuals that I have come into contact with. I.e, I know a transgendered woman (male physically). She knew she was a woman because she just felt that way. It was not to mark herself as normal in the eyes of society and the accompanying attributes and mannerisms.

Nobody "feels that way". You know a stereotype and you think you fit the stereotype. No one person can claim to know what it feels like to be a certain gender, because it's not well defined. The notion that not only do you know what it feels like to be a woman, but you also know what it feels like to be a man, and you don't fit the description of what a man is, and you do fit the description of what a woman is, assumes that you know an awful lot about these labels and what they can and cannot apply to.

 

[Siren]

This thread is so one sided...

 

[dylansan]

@Danoff

When you meet someone new, do you ask them what pair of chromosomes they have before deciding which pronouns to use for them?

 

[1241Penguin]

which pronouns

But that's exactly what Danoff is trying to get rid of.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Danoff You are expecting people to quantify why a particular feeling exists to them, and as to what causes that feeling or how it feels to them. But there is no answer to a question like that. I can no less tell you why I feel that my gender identity is female, than I can explain to you what love feels like; because there are literally no words to explain it other than just 'love'. It just is, and that is all there is too it. You certainly can not apply "logic" to it, because logic doesn't fit with feelings at all. Feelings, including love, anger, sorrow, and loss are all as irrational as each other. And each of those feelings can be different to each person. Whatever it is that creates the feeling of happiness within you, will not be the same thing that creates that same feeling within me. I just know when something makes me so, and in the process my lips tend to involuntarily move to form a smile.

Whether this is intentional or not, you are coming across a bit 'absolute' in all of this. And you appear to be coming off as 'if you can not explain why you feel this way without been a sexist bigot in the process, then I will not except that you feel that way'. But to be quite frank, You (and a lesser extent @LeMansAid), have zero right to tell people how they should feel. Because at the end of the day, it has sweet FA to do with you.

What I can tell you about me, is that I do not feel as though my gender identity is female because of arbitrary things such as what clothing appeals to me (I wear androgynous styles anyway, have done my entire life), or as to what toys I played with when I was younger, or even physical attributes. Those sort of things have nothing to do with it, they are just things that I either do/don't like or have developed before/after HRT, but they do not define who I am or my gender identity. My gender identity has just always been 'there', and the only way I can consciously describe it is as, is female. It is the only word that I can assign to it, but there are no words that I can find to explain why that is.

transgendered

The word you are looking for is not "transgendered", but "transgender".

This thread is so one sided...

Tell me about it.

@Danoff

When you meet someone new, do you ask them what pair of chromosomes they have before deciding which pronouns to use for them?

That is an excellent question to pose.

But that's exactly what Danoff is trying to get rid of.

Actually it is not, you should go and read through Danoff's posts in this thread again, right back to page one. Danoff's argument has always been that if you are chromosomally male or female, than you should be treated and addressed as that via pronouns; as it is sexist and bigoted to be addressed (or insist on being so) with the opposite pronouns to the biological sex that you are.

 

[Exorcet]

Danoff's argument has always been that if you are chromosomally male or female, than you should be treated and addressed as that via pronouns

You're missing the claim that there is no such thing. I'd agree with that. You could tell me that you are male or female, and it wouldn't change anything.

 

[Siren]

As a non cis passing trans woman there should be no need to explain my gender identity. There is no one way to explain it. Those who get it will get it and those who don't simply won't understand. Judging someone by their genitals is such a shallow act. Knowing that the majority of transphobia comes cis Hetero males is very interesting as well.

 

[Ialyrn]

You're missing the claim that there is no such thing. I'd agree with that. You could tell me that you are male or female, and it wouldn't change anything.

Ah, but here is the thing. Continuing to treat me as male and use male pronouns is considered highly disrespectful, and considered as 'transphobic' in the eyes of the law where I live (United Kingdom). And even though that is an awful word, it does not make it any less valid. The real fact of the matter here, is that this is exactly what @Danoff is being, as transphobia is described as a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings towards transsexuality, transsexuals, and transgender individuals. His views and beliefs on the matter have actually been pretty darn antagonistic. It is no different to turning around to a person who is gay and using a derogatory slur towards them for being so, or adhering to a belief that they choose to be gay while in a gay persons presence. And the same with with using a derogatory word towards a person of a different ethnicity to yourself.

It can also be very hurtful for the person on the receiving end. You have to understand something here, that although suffering with gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in and off itself, it can be the underlying cause of them; such as severe depression. The recommended treatment route of gender dysphoria is one to two years of real life living in the gender role that fits you gender identity, with HRT beginning after that time period. Then a further 2 years before surgery can even be considered. Those 4 years are already an exceptionally stressful time for a transgender individual, and to have people insist on referring to you and treating to you as your biological or physical sex during that time; is not only hateful, but actually quite damaging to the transgender person state of mind.

We already have so much hassle as is, I have friends who have lost everything and everyone, and on top of that have been verbally abused, physically assaulted, raped. Some even have to resort to prostitution just to earn money for a roof over their heads and to be able to eat. The vast majority of transgender individuals live far below the poverty.
There is even a day of remembrance for trans people who have either committed suicide, or who have been murdered.

All we want from people is a little human decency, and if you can not address us as with the gender pronouns that conform to our gender identity, then just use gender natural ones. There are plenty of them about. There is no need for anyone to be an outright tit towards another person just because they do not conform to your view of the world.

 

[Imari]

As has been stated many times, whatever is cited as the reason for that is necessarily sexist or arbitrary.

And I've pointed out that one doesn't need reasons for the way that one feels.

I don't think you're getting this. Have you never had a feeling in your life that was not reasonable?

If I say "I look like I have a penis", when I'm naked, it can be factual. You'd be able to see for yourself whether it was true. I could say "I look like I have a nose", or "I look like I have two eyes". But if I say "I look like a man"... tell me what that looks like without being sexist.

"I appear to resemble this group of people that I label as 'men' more than I appear to resemble this other group of people that I label as 'women'."

That not discriminatory. That's making the sensible observation that while humanity is a spectrum, there are at least two major nodes and that it can be useful to label those. It can also be useful to identify which of those two you most identify with, or whether you identify with neither in cases such as yourself.

But then when you start insisting that everyone else call you male because you have features like that, you tread on all of the women that have those features, and all of the men that don't. You start to say "this definition is the right one".

Except nobody is insisting that they be called a man because they have male features. They want to be called a man because that feels more right to them than being called a woman. You're getting cause and effect mixed up.

Nobody is saying "this definition is the right one for everyone". They're saying "this definition is the right one for me". That's not discriminatory, that's honest. That makes no evaluation of anyone else, explicit or implicit, that's simply one person sharing which category they feel that they fit best into.

I mean, how do we evaluate whether someone is gay, straight, bisexual, or something else? One can look at various objective characteristics, but the only real determination is to actually ask the person how they feel. And someone saying that they like people of the same sex isn't making any statement about anyone else, they're simply sharing how they feel.

What experiences and behaviors specifically?

Don't be an idiot. My perception of happiness was formed well before I was capable of memory or conscious thought. Babies straight out of the womb can display characteristic behaviours of happiness and sadness.

I couldn't tell you specifically even if there were specifics. For all I know I was born with an innate reaction to certain stimuli.

You're trying to dig as if there's specifics behind every feeling and emotion. Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. But most people aren't as totally rational as you when it comes to evaluating their feelings. They just feel the way they feel.

My point is you have a reason to think you're feeling a certain way.

Yes. The fact that I'm experiencing an emotion.

This seems like circular logic to me. I think that I feel because I feel? I mean, that's pretty fundamental and if you can't accept that then we're not getting anywhere.

It's not a valid basis, and I didn't use it as one.

Which comes back to the first part of that, then. Are you aware that all people don't feel alike?

Just trying to be efficient with my time. I have kids and a job and get kinda busy.

Don't give me that. You've got enough time to type up treatises when you feel like it. Give proper answers or don't bother with your snippy quips. That doesn't get anyone anywhere.

Why do they need to associate with either group? What's with the binning and categorization. Why can't they just be who they are and not get so hung up on what pronoun is used? Why the strong desire to fit into a mold? A mold that doesn't fit anyone perfectly anyway.

Welcome to the human mind. Categorisation is what we do. Sometimes it can be harmful, but mostly it's a very useful heuristic so that we don't have to learn about every single thing we encounter from scratch. "Man" and "Woman" are useful categories that unfortunately sometimes get used in situations where they're more harmful than useful. But that doesn't mean that they should be ignored.

I mean, you can't really ignore them if you want the human race to continue. But apart from that, there's a whole bunch of things that mean that it's essentially in everyone's faces all day every day, from language to fashion to toilets and so on. It's unavoidable, even if you're the sort of person who doesn't want to take part in the game.

I think you're also missing the fact that humans are in general social animals. They want to fit in, or at least to find their place. You might be an exception, but most people find it uncomfortable to be a lone individualist.

The more you type, the more I get the impression that you're just not getting any of this simply because it doesn't mesh with the way that you personally feel. It's probably fair to say that you're not particularly near the middle of the bell curve in many ways, and so taking your own feelings as though they're representative of people in general is probably a mistake.

You, and everyone in this thread, is in just as much a position to answer these questions as any transgendered person. You have a gender and you have a sex. Why do you feel that your gender is correct? What reason would you give me for why I shouldn't use the word "she" when referring to you? If you'd get upset or indignant about that pronoun, why so? What would be the harm in me referring to you as "she"?

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realise that I had to justify myself in order to get you to stop doing something irritating. I thought we lived in a society where people generally attempted not to be dicks to each other, and so if someone says "I prefer that you don't call me that, it feels weird. Please call me this" then we just did it because it was the right thing to do instead of quibbling over why they feel that way and if their feelings are real.

My name happens to have a common female diminutive that I find irritating. When some people use it, I simply ask them to stop. I couldn't tell you why I find it irritating, it's something that I've felt since I was a child. But I've never had to justify it to anyone because no one was ever enough of a douchebag to say "no, I'm gonna do whatever I want unless you can justify to me why that's annoying".

If someone feels that another gender pronoun is more appropriate for them, I think the better question is what sort of person are you that you wouldn't just go with it?

Nobody "feels that way".

And there it is.

This is you denying that other people feel the way they say they do. Is that really your intention?

You know a stereotype and you think you fit the stereotype. No one person can claim to know what it feels like to be a certain gender, because it's not well defined. The notion that not only do you know what it feels like to be a woman, but you also know what it feels like to be a man, and you don't fit the description of what a man is, and you do fit the description of what a woman is, assumes that you know an awful lot about these labels and what they can and cannot apply to.

Nobody is claiming to know what it feels like to be a certain gender. They're claiming that they feel like that gender. There's a difference.

Have you ever had a dream in which you were an animal of some sort? Say, a seagull. You have no idea what it feels like to be a seagull, but in the dream you sure felt like you were a seagull. When you describe the dream to someone else, you might say "I was a seagull in this dream last night".

You don't have to know what it would be like to be something to feel as if you are that something. The brain is a tricky thing. All the brain has to do is think that it feels like it is that something, and that's enough, since it's all perception anyway.

 

[Exorcet]

Ah, but here is the thing. Continuing to treat me as male and use male pronouns is considered highly disrespectful, and considered as 'transphobic' in the eyes of the law where I live (United Kingdom). And even though that is an awful word, it does not make it any less valid. The real fact of the matter here, is that this is exactly what @Danoff is being, as transphobia is described as a range of antagonistic attitudes and feelings towards transsexuality, transsexuals, and transgender individuals. His views and beliefs on the matter have actually been pretty darn antagonistic. It is no different to turning around to a person who is gay and using a derogatory slur towards them for being so, or adhering to a belief that they choose to be gay while in a gay persons presence. And the same with with using a derogatory word towards a person of a different ethnicity to yourself.

In fairness, Danoff did acknowledge that it would be rude go out of your way to antagonize someone with pronouns.

There is a certain level of disrespect in not calling someone what they want to be called. It depends, of course, on how obnoxious the request is. For example, I may have a problem with addressing certain people as "your majesty" or "master" or "father". But if someone wants to be referred to as "she" because that's how they self-identify, I have a hard time seeing how it's not disrespectful to refuse.

However... I also think it can be disrespectful for that person to insist on being called "she". Especially if the reasons reinforce counter-productive stereotypes.

Danoff is using male/female to refer to chromosomes and only chromosomes. With that definition, it's hard to see how it could be offensive to be called he/she. However there is societal bias, ignorance, and hatred along with personal experience which make the he/she distinction convenient even if arbitrary. Considering these other factors I can understand why people would desire to be called one thing or another. The issue in giving into these desires is that they can strengthen the bias, ignorance, and hatred that causes the problems in the first place. That is what Danoff is arguing against.

I would not say that it's anyone's job to put that concern over their own desires, but I definitely think it's a fair thing to point out and consider.

It can also be very hurtful for the person on the receiving end. You have to understand something here, that although suffering with gender dysphoria is not a mental illness in and off itself, it can be the underlying cause of them; such as severe depression. The recommended treatment route of gender dysphoria is one to two years of real life living in the gender role that fits you gender identity, with HRT beginning after that time period. Then a further 2 years before surgery can even be considered. Those 4 years are already an exceptionally stressful time for a transgender individual, and to have people insist on referring to you and treating to you as your biological or physical sex during that time; is not only hateful, but actually quite damaging to the transgender person state of mind.

Understood, but going back to what I said in the last paragraph, you have two solutions to this problem. You can remove all connotation from male/female so that no one can feel like they are being treating wrongly, or you can treat them stereotypically as they want to be treated. To suggest the first approach isn't really antagonist or hateful.

We already have so much hassle as is, I have friends who have lost everything and everyone, and on top of that have been verbally abused, physically assaulted, raped. Some even have to resort to prostitution just to earn money for a roof over their heads and to be able to eat. The vast majority of transgender individuals live far below the poverty.
There is even a day of remembrance for trans people who have either committed suicide, or who have been murdered.

All we want from people is a little human decency, and if you can not address us as with the gender pronouns that conform to our gender identity, then just use gender natural ones. There are plenty of them about. There is no need for anyone to be an outright tit towards another person just because they do not conform to your view of the world.

It's not so much about world view as trying to look at things objectively. Challenging the use of desired pronouns is not about getting people to conform, it's actually an attempt to kill the root of the problem they are having.

For what it's worth, I'm fine with calling someone he/she if they want to be called that. I even avoid using gendered pronouns on this forum if I don't know what is appropriate for a specific poster. It shouldn't really matter, but then that is the case in both directions. If a naturally born male decides to live "as a female" including the use of feminine pronouns, people shouldn't take that to mean that only shes can be steretypically feminine.

EDIT:

I think this part of Imari's post may better explain what I was trying to say immediately above:

Nobody is saying "this definition is the right one for everyone". They're saying "this definition is the right one for me". That's not discriminatory, that's honest. That makes no evaluation of anyone else, explicit or implicit, that's simply one person sharing which category they feel that they fit best into.

The only think I would add is that while people may not mean to imply that the male/female classes are rigid, they can still perpetuate the idea inadvertently.

 

[LeMansAid]

I can honestly say that the number one thing I think about when addressing all of this is atypical people of the future, and if they will be more or less likely to go through hell in order to navigate the world we have made for them.

Whether this is intentional or not, you are coming across a bit 'absolute' in all of this. And you appear to be coming off as 'if you can not explain why you feel this way without been a sexist bigot in the process, then I will not except that you feel that way'. But to be quite frank, You (and a lesser extent @LeMansAid), have zero right to tell people how they should feel. Because at the end of the day, it has sweet FA to do with you.

The issue is not how you feel, but rather how you describe the way you feel. In your situation you are essentially saying "The person I am cannot be called male". In doing that you are applying a limiting force to the scope of what a male can be. It certainly has no direct affect on me, but does have some affect on the atypical people of the future (as mentioned above), which in turn has some affect on me because I feel a responsibility to those people.

Judging someone by their genitals is such a shallow act.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread, but @Ialyrn for one, placed a much higher emphasis on determining gender by way of genitalia. Going as far as saying that the person in question had the "wrong chromosomes", instead of just accepting that they were atypical.

Knowing that the majority of transphobia comes cis Hetero males is very interesting as well.

How so?

 

[Ialyrn]

I don't know if you've read the whole thread, but @Ialyrn for one, placed a much higher emphasis on determining gender by way of genitalia. Going as far as saying that the person in question had the "wrong chromosomes", instead of just accepting that they were atypical.

Actually no, just no. I was not arguing that at all, as you well know. I was arguing against the fact that @Danoff was stating emphatically that @Obelisk friend was male and was vehemently insistent that they be treated as such because of the fact they where chromosomally male; when their physical gender and gender identity where both female. Which, as I argued, was:

Trans issues put aside in this regard, the statements that @Danoff has made in regards to @Obelisk friend are not only wrong, but they are actually very hateful towards an individual who is not transgender.

Sarah is a male. Scientifically, the most fundamental sex definition is by chromosomes rather than traits or physical features.

What's wrong with a man having breasts and a vagina? Why can a man not have these things?

Why does being born with a vagina and breasts override her chromosomes? Having breasts and a vagina does not make you female. I got your point.

And why I had to say this in a follow up post on that matter:

With regards to @Obelisk friend however, they are a chromosomal male, yes, but physically they was born female. Hence why the word 'intersex' is an appropriate and scientifically/medically accurate word to use in that instance. Intersex refers specifically to someone who is one physical sex while being the opposite biological sex. Both completely different things.

Because everyone needed an explanation as to why 'Intersex' and 'transgender' are not one in the same, they are two entirely separate things that can sometimes over lap. A transgender person could turn out to be intersex based on genetic factors (chromosomes for instance), just as an intersex person can suffer from gender dysphoria.

That was not just because of Danoff though, but because you yourself also stated:

Oh please. @Danoff is employing logic, and being very patient all the while. I was ing so hard while reading the responses he had to deal with.

So please do not go around twisting what I said to conform to the argument you wish to make.

 

[LeMansAid]

Full context.... you basically called @Danoff a troll....

@Danoff I felt before that you was only participating to troll and cause upset, and I still get that vibe from you.

... and "hateful" as well, as you just demonstrated with your self-quotes. That he didn't jump to conclusions based on physical attributes was a justifiable catalyst for your accusations?

"Physical gender" only exists because we brand based on overwhelming data, not because it's absolute or objective. It's apparent to me that something commonly being neglected in this discussion is people placing thought process outside of the presuppositions society has built up over time. It will most likely be an eternal stalemate in the absence of that.

 

[Imari]

While I'm sure I'll get more responses to the last wall of text I wrote, RL circumstances mean that I'm unlikely to be able to reply calmly and rationally for the next few days. Sorry to anyone who wanted to debate, but I'm out for now.

 

[CarBastard]

The way I see it, gender nowadays (and rightfully so) is like going to a Subway to buy a sandwich. You get your pick of genetic/biological gender, you pick the gender you're attracted to, the cultural role you identify with, the way you're gonna dress, add a bit of chipotle, decide if yay or nay on the extra bacon and pay the cashier. Turns out, as I found out talking with a friend that's more educated on the matter than I am and doesn't have to resort to a fast-food metaphor: this is all called "Queer theory".

I'll put myself as an example. I was born a male, I'm attracted to females, I combine characteristics of both what's culturally perceived as masculine and femenine, I dress like an 80s lesbian, chipotle, jalapeños and extra bacon. I'm not exactly "a man" in the traditional sense, I'm not gay either, nor I'm a woman. What am I? Something close to what James May once described as "A lesbian with a man's body". Or, for a better example, let's take Briggite Baptiste, one of the most famous transgender, uh, things, in my country. Born male, is atracted to women (he has a wife and kids), identifies as a woman, dresses as a woman, no chipotle, breast implants instead of bacon, and BOOM! you got one of the most brilliant environmentalists and biologists in all of South America.

Considering the nature of humans, our animal background as well as the infinite space opened by our new-ish mental facculties, I think it's pefectly natural that we have more than one gender and that the conception of gender has evolved, and will continue to do so, through time.

 

[Ialyrn]

Full context.... you basically called @Danoff a troll....

If he isnt a troll, then that means he is intolerant; as he is disapproving and/or refusing to accept ideas or ways of behaving that are different to his own.

Both of them are equally as bad. So he is either purposely keeping these arguments going for arguments sake, or to use a word he has thrown around very loosely in this thread, is a bigot himself.

"Physical gender" only exists because we brand based on overwhelming data, not because it's absolute or objective. It's apparent to me that something commonly being neglected in this discussion is people placing thought process outside of the presuppositions society has built up over time. It will most likely be an eternal stalemate in the absence of that.

And yet you keep making the same mistakes as Danoff, you keep neglecting actual scientific and medical data on both intersex and transgender issues.

http://www.glaad.org/transgender/transfaq

http://www.isna.org/faq/transgender

(check post #11 on page one for more information)

And even though Wiki isnt the best place for information, it does have a decent list of things in regards to intersex which is inline with what I was told by gender specialist doctors; which in the UK is a prerequisite for an NHS prescription for HRT and for GRS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

In biological terms, sex may be determined by five factors present at birth:[20]

• the number and type of sex chromosomes;
• the type of gonads—ovaries or testicles;
• the sex hormones;
• the internal reproductive anatomy (such as the uterus in females); and
• the external genitalia.

People whose five characteristics are not either all typically male or all typically female at birth are intersex.[21]

Some intersex traits are not always visible at birth; some babies may be born with ambiguous genitals, while others may have ambiguous internal organs (testes and ovaries). Others will not become aware that they are intersex unless they receive genetic testing, because it does not manifest in their phenotype.

I am not basing what I am saying just off my own personal opinion, but also what is currently regarded as the correct scientific and medical information on these maters. Which, in most cases, is researched by people who have chosen to research this stuff and/or help people suffering with intersex or gender identity issues. And who are quite often at the forefront of attempting to open peoples minds on these matters.

Edit:

And just something else I wish to add in regards to is sentence from your posting.

It's apparent to me that something commonly being neglected in this discussion is people placing thought process outside of the presuppositions society has built up over time.

You do realise that you are talking to a transgender individual, who has both transgender and gay friends, who also happens to be a Furry, is part of the MLP fan community, who activly goes to both Furry fandom and MLP meets and events, have designed my own OC's for both fandoms, and also have both family members and friends of varying ethnicities.

I think it is safe to assume that I am so far out of "presuppositions" of society, that it isnt even funny.

 

[Com Fox]

While I decided that I would just read the rest of this conversation as it I don't think I can add anything and like the see where both sides are coming from, just need to briefly jump in:

If he isnt a troll, then that means he is intolerant; as he is disapproving and/or refusing to accept ideas or ways of behaving that are different to his own.

I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you since you are Transgender however try to think more rationally with the posts from @Danoff . I really don't think you should play the "Troll" Card when someone has a totally opposite opinion on something. As for being intolerant, he might just disagree with your statements, understanding or accepting =/= liking it

I can see where both sides are coming from, it is a battle with rational up against irrational, it really depends on your stance. More logical thinkers won't truly get what it means to be transgender while the more "Feeling" thinkers can't really get into reasons.

At the moment, you could sort of say I'm Switzerland

 

[Ialyrn]

While I decided that I would just read the rest of this conversation as it I don't think I can add anything and like the see where both sides are coming from, just need to briefly jump in:



I understand that this is a very sensitive topic for you since you are Transgender however try to think more rationally with the posts from @Danoff . I really don't think you should play the "Troll" Card when someone has a totally opposite opinion on something. As for being intolerant, he might just disagree with your statements, understanding or accepting =/= liking it

I can see where both sides are coming from, it is a battle with rational up against irrational, it really depends on your stance. More logical thinkers won't truly get what it means to be transgender while the more "Feeling" thinkers can't really get into reasons.

At the moment, you could sort of say I'm Switzerland

It is not just my statements that @Danoff is disagreeing with, they are also disagreeing with actual researched information from scientists and medical personal who have taken on gender and the related issues (biologically and identity wise) as a specialist professional branch, and have centred their entire career on it.

And lets not forget that so far in this thread, transgender people have been thrown in the same corner as sexual predators (@Johnnypenso earlier postings in this thread, though I do not think Johnny intended to make that connotation. But it is there none the less.), and have been accused of being both bigots and sexist (@Danoff. Which is very clearly intentional, as it has repeatedly being the basis of his argument and the points he has put forward. To the point it has been used several times as a device to further said argument on more than one occasion.).

Pedophiles are known to go to extreme lengths to spend time alone with little boys and girls. Given that there aren't going to be testing stations outside every bathroom in the state to determine the validity of your gender convictions, surely there should be a reasonable level of concern that it might open the door to abuse by some sick and some not so sick individuals.

It's implicitly bigoted to insist that you should be called a girl when you "identify" as a girl but are a guy.

What I do not understand is how someone transgendered can decide that they are of another sex without being sexist.

So it is ok for others to send out the accusation for specific things, but when an actual person who lives this stuff daily does the same, they get accused of been "irrational". Give me a break.

There is no irrationality with that statement, it is actually fairly factual. Based on the given fact that he has ignored a hell of a lot of actual information, not just opinions.

That includes information (with links) put forth by myself, @Daniel @niky and a few others.

 

[Carbonox]

Aslo, just a reminder that the correct phrasing wouldn't be transgenders or transgendered, but transgender

The word you are looking for is not "transgendered", but "transgender".

It caught my eye that this has been pointed out multiple times. What exactly is the difference though?

 

[Daniel]

The -ed at the end has verbal implications. It implies that someone has 'trangendered' into their gender identity. and that there was a discrete moment in time before being transgender.
It can also imply that someone only becomes 'transgendered' after having surgery, which illegitimises trans people who haven't yet gone through surgery, or don't wish to do so.


An alternative explanation is: I'm gay, not 'gayed'.

 

[LeMansAid]

Why "trans", or "transgender" for that matter, at all then? Why should each person not just call themselves by what they identify as, and be done with it? Would save on some of the stigma I'd have thought.

 

[Famine]

If he isnt a troll, then that means he is intolerant;

Then he's being intolerant of everyone equally - including himself, and I'm not quite sure how that'd work...

The question isn't how a transgender person can feel they belong to a gender other than their own without being sexist, but how anyone can feel they belong to any gender without being sexist. Look:

You have a gender and you have a sex. Why do you feel that your gender is correct?

And to put that to the test, I'll pose myself a question. Danoff, why do you feel you must be called male? Why can you not be called female?

Well, I like driving and working on cars - sexist.
I'm attracted to women - simply not specific to men
I look like a man - simply not specific to men
I have male genetalia - some men do not, some women do
I think like a man - sexist.
I have X amount of testosterone - not specific to men
I have X amount of estrogen - not specific to men
I think logically rather than emotionally - sexist
I have xy chromosomes - that one is hard to argue with

The question applies to what you'd term 'cis' people as well as trans people - so how is asking it intolerant of trans people only?

Of course I'm probably now intolerant for asking that, somehow.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The question isn't how a transgender person can feel they belong to a gender other than their own without being sexist, but how anyone can feel they belong to any gender without being sexist.

It's only sexist if the social (or other) attributes you assign to a sex or gender are negative or disparaging. You could observe that many girls like to play with dolls, that isn't sexist, it's a fact. It's a fact with a whole other set of underlying arguments that can cover sexist views but that doesn't make the observation of the fact sexist.

Feeling that you're most comfortable in women's clothes isn't sexist. Feeling that you identify with what you socially see as "woman" isn't sexist.