Transgender Thread.

[Danoff]

Except they're not based in sexism, they're based in science.

Sure, if you're saying that you identify with women because you feel like you lack of y chromosome, that's based in science. It's also a useless explanation. If you're saying you feel like you have elevated estrogen, what does that mean?

 

[Lain]

Sure, if you're saying that you identify with women because you feel like you lack of y chromosome, that's based in science. It's also a useless explanation. If you're saying you feel like you have elevated estrogen, what does that mean?

The Y chromosome determines sex. And while sex is what is supposed to dictate the hormones that formulate one's gender, sometimes it doesn't always pan out that way.

It's not saying "you feel like you have elevated estrogen"... it's that you just plain have elevated estrogen. There's no "feel" about it, only fact. So what does it mean? It means precisely that: you have elevated estrogen, a hormone which, among other things, affects one's mentality and might make them identify as a gender that doesn't align with their sex.

 

[Obelisk]

The Y chromosome determines sex. And while sex is what is supposed to dictate the hormones that formulate one's gender, sometimes it doesn't always pan out that way.

As in my example with Sarah. She has an XY pair but developed as a female instead of male. Not quite hormone related, but it seemed to be an appropriate time to bring it up.

 

[Danoff]

The Y chromosome determines sex. And while sex is what is supposed to dictate the hormones that formulate one's gender, sometimes it doesn't always pan out that way.

It's not saying "you feel like you have elevated estrogen"... it's that you just plain have elevated estrogen. There's no "feel" about it, only fact. So what does it mean? It means precisely that: you have elevated estrogen, a hormone which, among other things, affects one's mentality and might make them identify as a gender that doesn't align with their sex.

Agreed that a hormone imbalance can cause your mentality to shift. How does that make you "identify" as a gender? Explain to me on what basis scientifically one can "identify" as a gender.

As in my example with Sarah. She has an XY pair but developed as a female instead of male. Not quite hormone related, but it seemed to be an appropriate time to bring it up.

Sarah is a male. Scientifically, the most fundamental sex definition is by chromosomes rather than traits or physical features.

 

[Obelisk]

Sarah is a male. Scientifically sex is determined by chromosomes rather than traits or physical features.

Strictly speaking, yes. But her body is fully developed as if it was a female. As in, she developed breasts and has a vagina. And she is a female mentally.

So calling her a guy because of her genetic make-up...not exactly appropriate.

 

[Lain]

Agreed that a hormone imbalance can cause your mentality to shift. How does that make you "identify" as a gender? Explain to me on what basis scientifically one can "identify" as a gender.

Because I'm talking about gender identity, which is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female. So uh, yeah... that's why an individual can "identify" their gender identity.

Gender itself is more of a social construct than anything, even if it stems from the biology, psychology and sociology around sex. It's basically the cultural slice of the equation, hence my initial analogy comparing it to sex as such.

Sarah is a male. Scientifically, the most fundamental sex definition is by chromosomes rather than traits or physical features.

Scientifically, you are correct. But realistically, Sarah would be assumed to be of the female sex by most accounts (AKA anyone who doesn't run bloodwork on everyone they meet)... and certainly her gender is female.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Danoff Seems to me that you still have not read through the information I linked to you on page one post number #11, as you are still failing to realize that there are actual quantifiable physical differences that have been seen via scientific studies. No one knows yet just why those differences are there, but they are nonetheless.

so I will quote it here, as it is still vastly relevant to the discussion.

@Danoff The problem is you are neglecting all the valid scientific data and research that has been done on all of this, especially in regards to Chromosomes (not everyone in the world has the correct chromosomes for their physical sex), and even how a fetus is formed in the womb. Sometimes there can be a mismatch between the embryonic hormones at specific development points in prenatal development. Or even our mother having an insensitivity to certain hormones, or even becoming immunized to certain antigens within the body that are needed during pregnancy. These things affect how a fetus may develop. These things can and do lead to physical changes in prenatal brain development, and there have been studies to show that there are genuine physical differences in a transsexual/transgender persons brain before any cross-sex hormones are taken. Which goes to show that the whole 'gender' thing may be more physical than mental. The biggest thing is the fact that the genitals and brain form at 2 separate points during pregnancy, and sometimes there is a misalignment between both.


https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/


http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-the-transgender-brain/


http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704

So as you can see, it is not as straight forward as you might think. And this is the reason why Doctors no longer try to treat the minds of transsexual individuals, but rather treat the body. Back when they used to treat the mind, and I use the term loosely. They used such things as lobotomy's, shock therapy, psychiatric drugs and institutionalizing people. A lot of the treatments often resulted in brain damage, and even in the worst case scenarios, death.

The problem here is that you can not treat the mind, if the mind is physically different in the first place. As I have shown above, genuine research has been going on in regards to the brains for male, female, and transsexual brains.

There are also other things throughout history, things that show the human race used to be much more knowledgeable and accepting on the whole 'gender' thing too. Such as in Ancient Greece, where some gods where considered to be both male and female, and some even as intersex or hermaphrodites.

Take Hermaphroditus for example:
http://www.mythindex.com/greek-mythology/H/Hermaphroditus.html

This is also a good article to read:

http://transascity.org/the-transgender-brain/

 

[Danoff]

Strictly speaking, yes. But her body is fully developed as if it was a female. As in, she developed breasts and has a vagina. And she is a female mentally.

What's wrong with a man having breasts and a vagina? Why can a man not have these things?

Seriously though, I posted a picture of a man with breasts in this thread... and what do I know if he has a vagina? Why must he be considered anything other than a man? Is it the presence of a vagina that forces us to consider someone female or is it the lack of a penis? Because guys lose their penises through no choice of their own on occasion, and I imagine more than a few have been born with both.

Explain to me what a "female mentality" is.

So calling her a guy because of her genetic make-up...not exactly appropriate.

I've explained above why it is.

Because I'm talking about gender identity, which is defined as a personal conception of oneself as male or female. So uh, yeah... that's why an individual can "identify" their gender identity.

That's why they can identify with an arbitrary definition of what they think that gender ought to be, which is sexist.

Gender itself is more of a social construct than anything, even if it stems from the biology, psychology and sociology around sex. It's basically the cultural slice of the equation, hence my initial analogy comparing it to sex as such.

Hence, why I thin it is sexist to "identify" as a gender.

Scientifically, you are correct. But realistically, Sarah would be assumed to be of the female sex by most accounts (AKA anyone who doesn't run bloodwork on everyone they meet)... and certainly her gender is female.

Why is her gender female?

@Danoff Seems to me that you still have not read through the information I linked to you on page one post number #11, as you are still failing to realize that there are actual quantifiable physical differences that have been seen via scientific studies. No one knows yet just why those differences are there, but they are nonetheless.

so I will quote it here, as it is still vastly relevant to the discussion.

I understood it when you quoted it the first time. I understanding that there are quantifiable physical differences about any and everything. None of it has the meaning it's being assigned.

 

[Obelisk]

What's wrong with a man having breasts and a vagina? Why can a man not have these things?

Sarah was born female and lived her entire life thus far as a female. She just has a Y chromosome in her cells. Way to miss my point...

 

[Danoff]

Sarah was born female and lived her entire life thus far as a female. She just has a Y chromosome in her cells. Way to miss my point...

Why does being born with a vagina and breasts override her chromosomes? Having breasts and a vagina does not make you female. I got your point.

 

[Ialyrn]

@Danoff I felt before that you was only participating to troll and cause upset, and I still get that vibe from you. You are failing to take in any information from anyone, no matter who they are. Throughout this entire thread you have been exactly the same, even ignoring information put forth by @niky, at least 2 trans individuals, and a person with a friend who has the wrong chromosomes, but was still born female. All what you have been told since the start of this thread, shows that it is not so straight forward to use Chromosomes as the definition of ones physical sex.

@Obelisk friend for instance wouldn't have been noted down as been female at birth based on her chromosomes, but on her genitalia, as is every newborn. Most people go their entire lives without even knowing what their chromosomes are, as they are not often tested at all. They certainly do not get done on standard tests when someone is ill. Hell, I am trans, and the doctors have never, not once in over 5 years, checked to see if my chromosomes are xy or xx.

 

[citroengt1]

I believe there are only 2 genders.
If a man is trapped in a woman's body, she is a female.
But she can act as a male if she wants, and get a penis, and breast removed
and what not. But you are still, in your DNA, a female.

But, having that as an option today, to act as male or vice versa, would that mean still having 2 genders or having new genders standardized?

 

[LeMansAid]

@Danoff.... troll.....

Oh please. @Danoff is employing logic, and being very patient all the while. I was ing so hard while reading the responses he had to deal with.

I do need to check one thing though.....

Ok, so we have a definition of "rape culture":

So let's see, does US society often blame the victim when it comes to rape? Yes. Objectify women? Yes. Trivialize rape (note the prison rape example)? Yes. Deny that it is widespread? Uh... not so sure. Refuse to acknowledge harm? Well if we're talking about NFL cheerleader teachers and teenage boys... yes.

When I read that I thought it was a brilliant bit of sly self-correction and self-deprecation. It made me laugh, and it made me proud (of you). Firstly though, is that an accurate inference? Secondly, does that mean you wouldn't use "Men and women are different. Get over it." in reference to the situation if you had your time over? I would otherwise have trouble reconciling that statement, considering it's context, with what you're asserting here.

 

[Obelisk]

Oh please. @Danoff is employing logic, and being very patient all the while. I was ing so hard while reading the responses he had to deal with.

"Logic".

 

[Ialyrn]

Oh please. @Danoff is employing logic, and being very patient all the while.

I am sorry, but can you please elaborate on how this is a logical response in regards to someone who was born physically female but with XY chromosomes?

What's wrong with a man having breasts and a vagina? Why can a man not have these things?

We are talking about an intersex individual in this regard, someone who was assigned female at birth based on their genitalia; and someone, with the information we have been provided by @Obelisk, who is happy as such. Someone who's gender identity matches what was between their legs at birth, their physical sex.

 

[Lain]

That's why they can identify with an arbitrary definition of what they think that gender ought to be, which is sexist.

Gender identity has nothing to do with gender role. Gender role, AKA how the gender "ought to be", is sexist... but that's a societal thing.

Transgenders don't go "Hmm I wanna be a girl... what do girls like to do..? Oh, shopping of course! That'll make me lady-like!"

Well, maybe some do. But I'd argue that those people aren't true transgenders. Pretending to be a girl and just innately feeling like you are one are two completely separate things.

Why is her gender female?

Because she looked like one, raised as one, felt like she was one?

Oh please. @Danoff is employing logic, and being very patient all the while. I was ing so hard while reading the responses he had to deal with.

And you're implying we're not employing logic?

Gender != Sex

That right there is a factual logic statement, like it or not. And that's really all I've been trying to say. Disagree with it, and that's fine... you'd be saying that gender dysphoria isn't a genuinely real thing. At which point logic goes out the window for your team.

 

[1241Penguin]

"Logic".

Except... Danoff has been quite consistent with his logic and I found it rather easy to grasp what he was trying to say.

Just to make sure sure I'm understanding @Danoff however:

If you say that you identify with a certain gender, it means that you are acknowledging the fact that that gender has certain inherent traits, all the while implying that it is wrong for that trait to exist in the other gender (because otherwise, why would you want to identify with that gender in the first place?)

If I want to identify myself as a girl because I prefer the colour pink and like to wear pink clothes (true story by the way, I did like pink as a young boy, and begged my mom to buy me a pink shirt with hearts on it), it's suggesting that only girls can like pink and wear pink clothes, and that boys shouldn't be doing so.

Similarly, if a girl wants to identify as boy because she likes to play with cars instead of dolls, and wants to wear pants instead of dresses, it is suggesting that only boys can play with cars and wear pants...

...which, as explained previously here, would be sexist, and is, as far as I can tell, a social issue above all else. Why can't boys wear pink? Why can't girls play with toy cars? Why does a boy who wants to wear pink have to identify with a different gender to do so? Why does a girl who wants to play with toy cars have to identify with a different gender to do so? Seems to me that social pressure is the only reason that's preventing boys from wearing pink or girls from playing with cars.


Consider this: A young male child is left alone on a deserted island with absolutely no social contact; he has never ever interacted with society. There are two items in front of him: a Barbie doll house and a hot pink tutu. Will he ever feel the need to identify with another gender if he chooses to play with the Barbies and puts on the tutu? Without the influence of society, I really doubt it.

 

[LeMansAid]

I am sorry, but can you please elaborate on how this is a logical response in regards to someone who was born physically female but with XY chromosomes?

Ah so physicality becomes important again?

We associate breasts and vaginas with women because that's what almost all women have. Completely understandable, but not an infallible thought process. There are all sorts of aberrations that appear in humans, but in the end we trust their dna to know that they are not whatever thing they happen to look like. For species we trust dna, for sex we trust chromosomes.

Gender identity has nothing to do with gender role. Gender role, AKA how the gender "ought to be", is sexist... but that's a societal thing.

For gender roles, "ought to be" is no more an accurate description as "tends to be", in which case I have no doubt of the interaction of gender identity and gender roles.

Gender != Sex

That right there is a factual logic statement, like it or not. And that's really all I've been trying to say. Disagree with it, and that's fine... you'd be saying that gender dysphoria isn't a genuinely real thing.

Ok, if I view gender in that way, it doesn't exist until we make it exist. It's what @Danoff has been fruitlessly trying to impart. He is absolutely correct that saying "I think/act this way, therefore I am male/female" is sexist.

team

We can remain a bit more mature than that, can't we?

 

[Obelisk]

Ok, if I view gender in that way, it doesn't exist until we make it exist. It's what @Danoff has been fruitlessly trying to impart. He is absolutely correct that saying "I think/act this way, therefore I am male/female" is sexist.

"Je pense, donc je suis." - Descartes on whether or not humans exist on a plane of reality.
vvv
"I think, therefore I am."

Only because you're trying to run off of a similar train of thought.

That said, how is a transgender feeling that they have to have x or y genitlia between their legs sexist? Can you prove in any way, shape or form that there is a sexist implication for someone who feels that they should be a specific gender?

 

[1241Penguin]

That said, how is a transgender feeling that they have to have x or y genitlia between their legs sexist? Can you prove in any way, shape or form that there is a sexist implication for someone who feels that they should be a specific gender?

I thought Danoff explained it pretty well here:

The notion of "identifying" with a certain race is racist just like the notion of "identifying" with a certain gender is sexist. No matter what you say your reasons are for "identifying" with a certain race/gender they will be racist/sexist. In order to "identify" with a race or gender, you must first identify some characteristic or mentality associated with that race or gender. Once you do that, you've made a racist/sexist generalization.

I identify with black people because I was raised in the hood (racist)
I identify with black people because I listen to a certain kind of music (racist)
...I like to wear certain clothes (racist)
...I speak a certain way (racist)
...because I like certain foods (racist)

I identify with women because I like to wear certain clothes/makeup (sexist)
...because I think like they do (sexist)
...because I feel like they do (sexist)
...because I'm more emotional than my male colleagues (sexist)
...because I like to cook (sexist)

I identify with white people because I come from white privilege (racist, twice)
...because I like money (racist)
...because I like going to the mall (racist)

I identify with asians because I'm good at math (racist)
...because I like asian food (racist)
...because I love asian movies (racist)
...because my parents want me to be a doctor (racist)

Some of these are supposed to be exaggerated, but literally there is no answer to the question of why you feel you're a different race/gender without ascribing some sort of generalization to that race/gender. At which point you're necessarily having a racist/sexist opinion.

...and no, the desire to alter your body does not mean you need to identify with the other gender. Even if it's modifying your genitalia.

And no, I don't think Danoff is suggesting that trans folk are sexist in the same way a patriarch who believes that women shouldn't drive cars and should always be in the kitchen. They could be unknowingly perpetuating these generalizations without any ill-intention.

 

[Lain]

Ok, if I view gender in that way, it doesn't exist until we make it exist. It's what @Danoff has been fruitlessly trying to impart. He is absolutely correct that saying "I think/act this way, therefore I am male/female" is sexist.

Genuine transgenders (i.e. those who experience gender dysphoria, which is a biological disorder) don't go "I liked playing with barbie dolls when I was a kid, and the color pink is pretty swell... *GASP* I MUST BE A GIRL!". Their feeling of transgenderness is just an innate sense that there's some sort of disconnect between their body and mind. And a diagnosis will corroborate that sense to be fact.

And no, I don't think Danoff is suggesting that trans folk are sexist in the same way a patriarch who believes that women shouldn't drive cars and should always be in the kitchen. They could be unknowingly perpetuating these generalizations without any ill-intention.

Some "trans" folk, perhaps. But it's a bona fide genetic disorder for some others. They aren't just making it up, and it has nothing to do with any sexist notions of how certain genders should behave.

 

[Obelisk]

I thought Danoff explained it pretty well here:


And no, I don't think Danoff is suggesting that trans folk are sexist in the same way a patriarch who believes that women shouldn't drive cars and should always be in the kitchen. They could be unknowingly perpetuating these generalizations without any ill-intention.

Note that he said with and not as.

He's trying to make an association between gender identity and social identity. They are not the same thing.

I.E. I am a male. -> Identifying myself as a person who has a penis and testicles between their legs and is male mentally. (Gender identity)

I am American -> Identifying myself as part of a group of people who are associated with a certain flag and block of land. (social identity)

Edit: Also what @Lain said. I couldn't find a way to phrase it.

 

[1241Penguin]

Genuine transgenders (i.e. those who experience gender dysphoria, which is a biological disorder) don't go "I liked playing with barbie dolls when I was a kid, and the color pink is pretty swell... *GASP* I MUST BE A GIRL!". Their feeling of transgenderness is just an innate sense that there's some sort of disconnect between their body and mind. And a diagnosis will corroborate that sense to be fact.

So what causes gender dysphoria? Legitimate question.

Note that he said with and not as.

He's trying to make an association between gender identity and social identity. They are not the same thing.

I.E. I am a male. -> Identifying myself as a person who has a penis and testicles between their legs and is male mentally. (Gender identity)

I am American -> Identifying myself as part of a group of people who are associated with a certain flag and block of land. (social identity)

You're going to have to spell out the difference to me.

 

[Obelisk]

So what causes gender dysphoria? Legitimate question.

You're going to have to spell out the difference to me.

Why should I have to spell it out when Google answers it well?

A link to an article about gender dysphoria.

 

[Lain]

Ob's link only covers symptoms and treatment for Gender Dysphoria.

As for the actual causes, @1241Penguin, check here: http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

[1241Penguin]

Why should I have to spell it out when Google answers it well?

No, I know the difference between gender identity and social identity. I'm asking you what qualities of each makes his comparison invalid.

Here's his quote, again, with what I think are the important points:

The notion of "identifying" with a certain race is racist just like the notion of "identifying" with a certain gender is sexist.

In order to "identify" with a race or gender, you must first identify some characteristic or mentality associated with that race or gender. Once you do that, you've made a racist/sexist generalization.

I identify with black people because I was raised in the hood (racist)

I identify with women because I like to wear certain clothes/makeup (sexist)

I identify with white people because I come from white privilege (racist, twice)

I identify with asians because I'm good at math (racist)

...but literally there is no answer to the question of why you feel you're a different race/gender without ascribing some sort of generalization to that race/gender.

A link to an article about gender dysphoria.

So all I can find is that it's caused by a mismatch in one's body versus their feelings. From your article:

People who have gender dysphoria feel strongly that they are not the gender they physically appear to be.

For example, a person who has a penis and all other physical traits of a male might feel instead that he is actually a female. That person would have an intense desire to have a female body and to be accepted by others as a female. Or, someone with the physical characteristics of a female would feel her true identity is male.

So is it something that is caused by society?

 

[Lain]

So all I can find is that it's caused by a mismatch in one's body versus their feelings. From your article:

So is it something that is caused by society?

No, those are symptoms. Check the article I linked to for the root causes.

 

[Ialyrn]

Ah so physicality becomes important again?

We associate breasts and vaginas with women because that's what almost all women have. Completely understandable, but not an infallible thought process. There are all sorts of aberrations that appear in humans, but in the end we trust their dna to know that they are not whatever thing they happen to look like. For species we trust dna, for sex we trust chromosomes.

You are missing the point though, Chromosomes, no matter what they are, are not a fool proof way to say what sex or gender someone is. As is the case with @Obelisk friend, something went wrong. And for all intents and purposes they are female in every way, and they was born what way inside and out; they just happen to have the wrong chromosomes. We are not talking about someone like myself who it is assumed is an XY male (again, my chromosomes have never been tested; so who knows?), raised as a male, and who has transitioned to female due to a working diagnosis of severe gender dysphoria, we are talking about someone who can be 100% medically labeled as intersex. Transgender and intersex are not seen as the same thing at this particular moment in time, but some of the treatments paths can be similar, such as HRT and visiting gender specialist medical personal. An intersex person can still suffer from gender dysphoria, but their gender dysphoria is down to them being intersex, not been transgender.

Trans issues put aside in this regard, the statements that @Danoff has made in regards to @Obelisk friend are not only wrong, but they are actually very hateful towards an individual who is not transgender.

Again, please elaborate on how his comment can be seen as 'logical'?

So what causes gender dysphoria? Legitimate question.

Was going to post the same link as @Lain, but they beat me to it.

 

[1241Penguin]

No, those are symptoms. Check the article I linked to for the root causes.

And what might the reasons be for a person to think or believe that they are in the wrong body in the first place? Would a person who has AIS or CAH who is living on a deserted island without any form of social contact know to think of themselves as being in the wrong body just because of their condition and nothing else? Or would societal norms be needed to create that feeling?


...

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against transgender people at all, and I understand the struggles that they face in society and what sort of pressures it creates on individuals, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't be curious or question what's going on.

 

[Exorcet]

You are missing the point though, Chromosomes, no matter what they are, are not a fool proof way to say what sex or gender someone is. As is the case with @Obelisk friend, something went wrong. And for all intents and purposes they are female in every way, and they was born what way inside and out; they just happen to have the wrong chromosomes.

I think the part of the problem here is wording like this. What is it that is wrong in that situation? There isn't a problem, it's just an uncommon occurrence. What difference does it make outside of societal norms if this person is said to be male instead of female? What significant changes?