Transgender Thread.

[LeMansAid]

Genuine transgenders (i.e. those who experience gender dysphoria, which is a biological disorder) don't go "I liked playing with barbie dolls when I was a kid, and the color pink is pretty swell... *GASP* I MUST BE A GIRL!". Their feeling of transgenderness is just an innate sense that there's some sort of disconnect between their body and mind. And a diagnosis will corroborate that sense to be fact.

Gender, using your description of it, doesn't exist innately. So certainly "transgenderness" is well beyond innateness.

People will absolutely feel at odds with their bodies, just like the people that feel a desperate need to rid themselves of specific amounts of their limb(s) do. I have no doubt that it would exist for men and women to innately want the things (surgery-specific or otherwise) that trans people tend to want for themselves - but a "perfect storm", as I previously put it, of all of them.....? Without archetypes to gravitate towards, the odds of people adopting each and every one of those things would be miles off the reality of how many people adopt them in our world, with archetypes present.

Oh damn, @Obelisk burned you with that posting of the definition of gender identity, and it's "intimately related to the concept of gender role".

You are missing the point though, Chromosomes, no matter what they are, are not a fool proof way to say what sex or gender someone is. As is the case with @Obelisk friend, something went wrong. And for all intents and purposes they are female in every way, and they was born what way inside and out; they just happen to have the wrong chromosomes.

You say "wrong chromosomes", someone else might say "atypical body".

 

[Com Fox]

I wouldn't say any of it was really racist or sexist as those means you put one race/gender over the other. That isn't really the case here, it can be seen as stereotyping but that isn't the same as racism or sexism.

 

[LeMansAid]

That isn't really the case here, it can be seen as stereotyping but that isn't the same as racism or sexism.

 

[Com Fox]

Granted, I'm not saying at all stereotyping based on race and gender is right but stereotyping based off race and gender is not the same.

Racism comes from believing one race is superior or inferior, stereotyping doesn't always do this.

Granted, I did the same for Sexism but I guess you are right on that one as stereotyping fits the bill of Sexism apparently:

 

[LeMansAid]

Racism is discriminating on the basis of race. Sexism is discriminating on the basis of sex. That's it. "Discrimination" not necessarily being negative, but simply a determination. If I said "All Mexicans wear hats" I doubt you'd see that as suggesting superiority of either Mexicans or non-Mexicans, but it would be racist.

 

[Com Fox]

Racism is discriminating on the basis of race. Sexism is discriminating on the basis of sex. That's it. "Discrimination" not necessarily being negative, but simply a determination. If I said "All Mexicans wear hats" I doubt you'd see that as suggesting superiority of either Mexicans or non-Mexicans, but it would be racist.

Discrimination is Discrimination, Racist is suggesting superiority between Races there is nothing that says Racism involves Sterotyping, it does for Sexism so you guys can suggest that what some Transgender stuff equals Sexist though.

Besides your example was more Xenophonic than Racist (since Mexican is not a Race), though I do understand (however disagree) what you mean because of what I said above.

 

[LeMansAid]

Discrimination is Discrimination, Racism is suggesting superiority between Racist there is nothing that says Racism involves Sterotyping, it does for Sexism so you guys can suggest that what some Transgender stuff equals Sexist though.

Besides your example was more Xenophonic than Racist (since Mexican is not a Race), though I do understand (however disagree) what you mean because of what I said above.

I could have used ethnicist, but thought that racist would be sufficient enough to get the point across. Assuming you mean xenophobic, why are you inferring the "phobic" part? If you actually mean xenophonic, you must be talking about a variety of Mexican hats with different types of radios in them or something.

 

[1241Penguin]

If you actually mean xenophonic, you must be talking about a variety of Mexican hats with different types of radios in them or something.

 

[Com Fox]

I could have used ethnicist, but thought that racist would sufficient enough to get the point across. Assuming you mean xenophobic, why are you inferring the "phobic" part? If you actually mean xenophonic, you must be talking about a variety of Mexican hats with different types of radios in them or something.

It was a typo, I do apologize

 

[NinjaDesignz]

Personally, I don't care what gender you think you are because it doesn't affect me in any way. You could not be gender for all I care. It doesn't make me any poorer or richer if there are three genders. I don't see why so many people are so unhappy about it when it most likely doesn't affect them in any way.

 

[Obelisk]

I'll exit this thread with a simple thought:

You do you, and I'll do me.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll exit this thread with a simple thought:

You do you, and I'll do me.

It's more fun to do it with someone else but yeah, any port in a storm

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff I felt before that you was only participating to troll and cause upset, and I still get that vibe from you. You are failing to take in any information from anyone, no matter who they are.

I'm taking it all in. Listening and not being persuaded are not equivalent... and I don't judge information based on who is stating it, I judge it based on what is being stated.

Throughout this entire thread you have been exactly the same, even ignoring information put forth by @niky, at least 2 trans individuals, and a person with a friend who has the wrong chromosomes, but was still born female. All what you have been told since the start of this thread, shows that it is not so straight forward to use Chromosomes as the definition of ones physical sex.

I've explained quite clearly why it is, even in light of that information. What I do not understand is how someone transgendered can decide that they are of another sex without being sexist.

@Obelisk friend for instance wouldn't have been noted down as been female at birth based on her chromosomes, but on her genitalia, as is every newborn. Most people go their entire lives without even knowing what their chromosomes are, as they are not often tested at all. They certainly do not get done on standard tests when someone is ill. Hell, I am trans, and the doctors have never, not once in over 5 years, checked to see if my chromosomes are xy or xx.

What's your point here? That this person can go their whole lives thinking that they're female and find out that they're male? That's fine.

When I read that I thought it was a brilliant bit of sly self-correction and self-deprecation. It made me laugh, and it made me proud (of you). Firstly though, is that an accurate inference? Secondly, does that mean you wouldn't use "Men and women are different. Get over it." in reference to the situation if you had your time over? I would otherwise have trouble reconciling that statement, considering it's context, with what you're asserting here.

Well I don't want to get rid of any good will that I've caused. The law is a bright line in the sand. We say people can be licensed to drive at 16 not because every 16 year old will be ready to drive, but because it's a convenient place to draw the line. Some people will never be ready to drive. Some people will never be mature enough to vote, or drink, or smoke pot, or have intercourse, or procreate... but the law cannot be entirely tailored to every single individual. So... I have no problem with the law prescribing different outcomes in cases of statutory rape for different genders. Is it perfect? No. But it's more perfect than attempting to treat everyone the same regardless of gender. Equal protection applies in circumstances where the distinction is arbitrary, and in this case it is not.

I am sorry, but can you please elaborate on how this is a logical response in regards to someone who was born physically female but with XY chromosomes?

They have XY chromosomes, so they're chromosomally male.

We are talking about an intersex individual in this regard, someone who was assigned female at birth based on their genitalia; and someone, with the information we have been provided by @Obelisk, who is happy as such. Someone who's gender identity matches what was between their legs at birth, their physical sex.

Uh huh. That's fine. They're still male. Why does this affect that person? It is who they are.

Gender identity has nothing to do with gender role. Gender role, AKA how the gender "ought to be", is sexist... but that's a societal thing.

Transgenders don't go "Hmm I wanna be a girl... what do girls like to do..? Oh, shopping of course! That'll make me lady-like!"

Well, maybe some do. But I'd argue that those people aren't true transgenders. Pretending to be a girl and just innately feeling like you are one are two completely separate things.

What do you mean "innately" feeling like you're a sex. What does it feel like to be a sex? I do not understand this "innate" business and I don't think it exists. I do not innately feel like a man. I'm a human. If you told me my chromosomes were XX, that wouldn't change anything about me whatsoever. I wouldn't argue that I'm male either, it doesn't matter. I am who I am.

Because she looked like one, raised as one, felt like she was one?

What difference does it make what she looks like? How she was raised? I think everyone in this thread would agree that neither of those makes any difference whatsoever to your sex. And what does it mean to feel like a sex or gender?

you'd be saying that gender dysphoria isn't a genuinely real thing.

Gender dysphoria is a genuine thing, caused by people not feeling about their sex the way society has taught them that they should feel about their sex. Instead they feel like they fit better into the other sex because of what society has taught them about that sex. Gender dysphoria is caused by artificial gender definitions.

Just to make sure sure I'm understanding @Danoff however:

If you say that you identify with a certain gender, it means that you are acknowledging the fact that that gender has certain inherent traits, all the while implying that it is wrong for that trait to exist in the other gender (because otherwise, why would you want to identify with that gender in the first place?)

If I want to identify myself as a girl because I prefer the colour pink and like to wear pink clothes (true story by the way, I did like pink as a young boy, and begged my mom to buy me a pink shirt with hearts on it), it's suggesting that only girls can like pink and wear pink clothes, and that boys shouldn't be doing so.

Similarly, if a girl wants to identify as boy because she likes to play with cars instead of dolls, and wants to wear pants instead of dresses, it is suggesting that only boys can play with cars and wear pants...

...which, as explained previously here, would be sexist, and is, as far as I can tell, a social issue above all else. Why can't boys wear pink? Why can't girls play with toy cars? Why does a boy who wants to wear pink have to identify with a different gender to do so? Why does a girl who wants to play with toy cars have to identify with a different gender to do so? Seems to me that social pressure is the only reason that's preventing boys from wearing pink or girls from playing with cars.

Consider this: A young male child is left alone on a deserted island with absolutely no social contact; he has never ever interacted with society. There are two items in front of him: a Barbie doll house and a hot pink tutu. Will he ever feel the need to identify with another gender if he chooses to play with the Barbies and puts on the tutu? Without the influence of society, I really doubt it.

Yes and...

It goes deeper than that. Beyond the superficial descriptions of what one gender or another might prefer (like playing with dolls or wearing particular clothing), I submit that there is no reason you can put forth to feel like you need to be called one gender or another that isn't sexist or arbitrary.

And to put that to the test, I'll pose myself a question. Danoff, why do you feel you must be called male? Why can you not be called female?

Well, I like driving and working on cars - sexist.
I'm attracted to women - simply not specific to men
I look like a man - simply not specific to men
I have male genetalia - some men do not, some women do
I think like a man - sexist.
I have X amount of testosterone - not specific to men
I have X amount of estrogen - not specific to men
I think logically rather than emotionally - sexist
I have xy chromosomes - that one is hard to argue with

I can't think of any reason besides chromosomes why I can argue that I should be called male. And honestly I don't care about my chromosomes. If everyone around me wanted to call me female and it made sense to them to do so, fine. I have no issues with that. There's nothing wrong with being female and having the traits I have.

That said, how is a transgender feeling that they have to have x or y genitlia between their legs sexist? Can you prove in any way, shape or form that there is a sexist implication for someone who feels that they should be a specific gender?

There's no reason that feeling like you have to have x or y genitalia between your legs should cause you to change your gender. Men and women lose, change, and have both sets of genitalia. It's not a discriminating trait.

Genuine transgenders (i.e. those who experience gender dysphoria, which is a biological disorder) don't go "I liked playing with barbie dolls when I was a kid, and the color pink is pretty swell... *GASP* I MUST BE A GIRL!". Their feeling of transgenderness is just an innate sense that there's some sort of disconnect between their body and mind.

Nobody is saying that they shouldn't change their body however they want. The part that becomes problematic is when they insist that society give them a label for whatever reason they feel they should have that label. Whatever their reason is, it's sexist or arbitrary.

Note that he said with and not as.

He's trying to make an association between gender identity and social identity. They are not the same thing.

I.E. I am a male. -> Identifying myself as a person who has a penis and testicles between their legs and is male mentally. (Gender identity)

I am American -> Identifying myself as part of a group of people who are associated with a certain flag and block of land. (social identity)

Edit: Also what @Lain said. I couldn't find a way to phrase it.

What does it mean to be a "male" mentally. A person with a penis and testicles can be a woman.

People disagree on what it is to be American. To some, you need to have been born here. To others, you need to live here. To still others, you need to have an "American" mentality and cannot be American regardless of where you stand or were born so long as you do not like hot dogs, guns, and fireworks. If the rest of the world only calls you an american based on where you were born, and you go around insisting that everyone call you an American because you like hot dogs, guns, and fireworks, you're stereotyping and wrong. If you go around insisting that everyone call you American based on where you stand instead of where you were born, you're just fighting an arbitrary battle that has no real meaning.

You are missing the point though, Chromosomes, no matter what they are, are not a fool proof way to say what sex or gender someone is. As is the case with @Obelisk friend, something went wrong. And for all intents and purposes they are female in every way, and they was born what way inside and out; they just happen to have the wrong chromosomes.

You can't have the wrong chromosomes. Your chromosomes are your chromosomes. There's no "I was born with the wrong chromosomes", that's like saying you were born with the wrong DNA or the wrong parents, it is you. What does it mean to be "female in every way". What criteria are you assigning females? Genitalia, well that's not a good one. Outward appearance? That's very faulty. How they think, their hormone levels, the kind of clothes they like or their mannerisms or what entertainment they prefer? Or their sexuality? None of it makes them female. There's only one thing in that list that can't be wrong, and it's the chromosomes.

We are not talking about someone like myself who it is assumed is an XY male (again, my chromosomes have never been tested; so who knows?), raised as a male, and who has transitioned to female due to a working diagnosis of severe gender dysphoria

How exactly have you transitioned to female? What makes you female and why?

Trans issues put aside in this regard, the statements that @Danoff has made in regards to @Obelisk friend are not only wrong, but they are actually very hateful towards an individual who is not transgender.

Please quote me being hateful. And no, saying that a statement is sexist or racist is not hateful. I'm one of the few people on this board who defends peoples' right to be sexist and racist.

 

[Ialyrn]

I've explained quite clearly why it is, even in light of that information. What I do not understand is how someone transgendered can decide that they are of another sex without being sexist.

When did I say I was another sex? I have never, not once, denied that I am physically and biologically male. You are confusing 'sex' with 'gender', which are not the same thing. This is why I say I am 'transgender' and not 'transsexual'. In fact I personally do not like the word 'transsexual' because of the connotation that is there because of the 'sexual' portion of the word, which, as evidenced by your response towards me, causes confusion.

With regards to @Obelisk friend however, they are a chromosomal male, yes, but physically they was born female. Hence why the word 'intersex' is an appropriate and scientifically/medically accurate word to use in that instance. Intersex refers specifically to someone who is one physical sex while being the opposite biological sex. Both completely different things.

 

[Imari]

What I do not understand is how someone transgendered can decide that they are of another sex without being sexist.

A woman who feels like a woman is not being sexist.
A man who feels like a woman is not being sexist.

When they start to try and attach reasons for the way they feel they may be being sexist, but simply saying "I feel like this" can't possibly be sexist. It's their own feeling, it exists in and of itself.

What do you mean "innately" feeling like you're a sex. What does it feel like to be a sex? I do not understand this "innate" business and I don't think it exists. I do not innately feel like a man. I'm a human. If you told me my chromosomes were XX, that wouldn't change anything about me whatsoever. I wouldn't argue that I'm male either, it doesn't matter. I am who I am.

You're aware that all people don't feel alike, right? Just because you don't feel like you identify strongly with a gender, is that really a basis for arguing that nobody does?

I can see how someone might not be able to grok how it might feel, but to dismiss the possibility that others might be able to feel that way seems pretty closed minded for someone who is supposedly attempting to apply logical thought.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Well, I definitely feel like a man, I am a man, but I'm still the last person on earth, who would judge a man, who feels like a woman and wants to be one. @Danoff you have some good points, but you're entirely ignoring the emotional part. You can be born with a certain gender chromosome wise and still develope an entirely different behaviour and emotions, even without society influencing you too much.

 

[LeMansAid]

Well, I definitely feel like a man

That's a nonsensical statement. To have it make any kind of sense you'd have to go into more detail about what makes you feel like a man, which would doubtless result in sexist statements.

@Obelisk Seriously....?

 

[Imari]

That's a nonsensical statement. To have it make any kind of sense you'd have to go into more detail about what makes you feel like a man...

Why? Do you have to explain why you like a sunny day? Why you like strawberry ice cream? Why you're scared of spiders? Why you're scared of heights?

Feelings don't necessarily have reasons, sometimes they just are. People feel a certain way and then they spend their lives making up excuses for it depending on whether they think that they should or shouldn't feel like that. But it doesn't change the fact that you feel the way you feel, and no amount of logic or reasoning is going to change that emotional response.

 

[G.T.Ace]

That's a nonsensical statement. To have it make any kind of sense you'd have to go into more detail about what makes you feel like a man, which would doubtless result in sexist statements.

@Obelisk Seriously....?

Not at all sexist, I just feel like a male person. That doesn't mean I don't cry or some of that crap, I just identify as a man, gender wise. If someone else can't identify himself as man, or woman, or whatever, fine, but I can, do and don't see it as something bad.

 

[Castrol96]

Don't care

 

[Danoff]

When did I say I was another sex? I have never, not once, denied that I am physically and biologically male. You are confusing 'sex' with 'gender', which are not the same thing. This is why I say I am 'transgender' and not 'transsexual'. In fact I personally do not like the word 'transsexual' because of the connotation that is there because of the 'sexual' portion of the word, which, as evidenced by your response towards me, causes confusion.

With regards to @Obelisk friend however, they are a chromosomal male, yes, but physically they was born female. Hence why the word 'intersex' is an appropriate and scientifically/medically accurate word to use in that instance. Intersex refers specifically to someone who is one physical sex while being the opposite biological sex. Both completely different things.

That specific comment wasn't aimed at you. There were some questions posed to you in that post though.

A woman who feels like a woman is not being sexist.
A man who feels like a woman is not being sexist.

Nobody is sexist because they feel. They're sexist for ascribing what they feel like to some notion of womanhood.

When they start to try and attach reasons for the way they feel they may be being sexist, but simply saying "I feel like this" can't possibly be sexist. It's their own feeling, it exists in and of itself.

You can do this for any feeling. Like, for example, if you claim you're feeling happy. Why? What makes you think that. What makes you think happy is the right word?

You're aware that all people don't feel alike, right? Just because you don't feel like you identify strongly with a gender, is that really a basis for arguing that nobody does?

Nope.

I can see how someone might not be able to grok how it might feel, but to dismiss the possibility that others might be able to feel that way seems pretty closed minded for someone who is supposedly attempting to apply logical thought.

See above.

Well, I definitely feel like a man, I am a man, but I'm still the last person on earth, who would judge a man, who feels like a woman and wants to be one. @Danoff you have some good points, but you're entirely ignoring the emotional part. You can be born with a certain gender chromosome wise and still develope an entirely different behaviour and emotions, even without society influencing you too much.

Why do you think you feel like a man? What do you think it feels like to feel like a man? What do you think a man feels like?

Not at all sexist, I just feel like a male person. That doesn't mean I don't cry or some of that crap, I just identify as a man, gender wise.

What makes you think that? Tell me what a man is.

 

[dylansan]

@Danoff

Just some thoughts I'm going to throw out here:

I think a lot of the feelings about gender come not just from internally feeling like a specific gender, but from knowing how society treats people based on their appearance and behavior, and assigns them gender-terms based on that. Identifying as a certain gender may just be a matter of convenience for people who already want to look, dress, and behave in ways that are generally regarded as being more like one gender than another. Sexist? Maybe, but it's more a reaction to the inherent sexism of society than it is a personal sexism. And I don't think it's arbitrary, either. The ideas of "normal" men and women are based on common traits and real differences between them. Women tend to have breasts. Men tend to have willies.

There's a new employee where I work, and for the first few days I had to tread carefully because I honestly couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. They're older, pretty large and with short, gray hair, and a middle-range voice. It was only when I asked for a name that I decided Mike is male, or at least identifies as male. What's important is that I don't need to know what his chromosomes are to decide to use male pronouns "him" and "he." Because those pronouns aren't based on his genetic gender, their based on his societal, sexist, stereotypical gender. It could be that he has two X chromosomes, but if I started saying "she" it would not be a win for stopping sexism and stereotyping. It would probably just hurt his feelings.

If I had breasts and wore dresses and lipstick from day to day, I would want people to think of me as a woman. Because if they thought of me as a man, it would probably include judgement and ridicule or at least confusion, because that's just how society is. I wouldn't want people to think of me as a man who looks differently than other men. Just call me "she" and everything's clearer.



I agree with Danoff that there is no inherent feeling of being male or female. It's all based on stereotypical societal norms. But I have absolutely zero problem with that, because as long as we're not going to criticize women for prolonging gender roles by wearing skirts, I see no reason to criticize a genetically male person for the same thing.

And maybe society would be better if we were able to get away from those stereotypes. It would certainly be easier for those who don't fit the roles exactly—people who dress in generally male clothing but wear makeup, for example. But it's also a long way off. And any genetically male person who wants to shop in the women's clothing sections, use makeup, or even have gender reassignment and also wants to be referred to as a male because they don't accept traditional gender roles, well that person would know full well that asking that of most people would be no easy task, an unfortunate truth.

Personally, I'd like to think I can accept anyone's identity and use whatever pronoun someone wants me to. But I also know that in a lot of cases, I make assumptions that I have no real basis for, assumptions which could possibly leave people insulted or hurt. Considering this is such a complicated topic, I'd hope that people could forgive me for not understanding how people feel or how they see themselves, but for understanding to happen, it's important to recognize that some of what Danoff says is true. Feeling like a gender does have connotations outside of genetics. If I said I felt like a woman but continued to wear the same clothes I do, act the same way and use male pronouns because that's what I thought being a woman felt like, that would probably be a little strange, honestly. But wouldn't that technically be the least sexist option?

I think some in this thread are seeing dismissiveness and ridicule where there is really curiosity and a desire for a logical basis to talk about this subject. Until someone flat-out says someone else is wrong for choosing any action, we shouldn't assume there is judgement.

I'd like this discussion to continue if only to understand people a little better. I know personally that, when it comes to sexual orientation, trying to understand what your feelings mean is not at all easy, and I urge people in this thread to be open minded in the hopes of understanding yourself a little better. I know that just writing this has already helped me.

 

[Exorcet]

I think a lot of the feelings about gender come not just from internally feeling like a specific gender, but from knowing how society treats people based on their appearance and behavior, and assigns them gender-terms based on that. Identifying as a certain gender may just be a matter of convenience for people who already want to look, dress, and behave in ways that are generally regarded as being more like one gender than another. Sexist? Maybe, but it's more a reaction to the inherent sexism of society than it is a personal sexism.

I agree with the sentiment in this thread that actions driven by emotion instead of logic have the potential to promote stereotypes and cause problems. At the same time, no one is required to spend their time fighting sexism, racism, etc. If it is easier for a person to conform to arbitrary rules, they have every right to conform instead of fighting. As @Imari said, people's feelings sometimes just are. It's alright to follow them even if they don't strictly adhere to logic. It shouldn't be surprising if those acting on those feelings sometimes generates questions. It's not an attack, and it can reveal valuable information for all sides.

 

[Imari]

Nobody is sexist because they feel. They're sexist for ascribing what they feel like to some notion of womanhood.

If "I feel like a woman" is the best description someone can come up with for how they feel, why should that be sexist? It's a simple observation. It's not discriminatory in any way.

I mean, if I say "Barack Obama looks like he's black" that's not racist, that's just observation. There could be a better way to describe it, but he sure looks like a black man to me.

I don't see how you can possibly argue with someone's perception of their own feelings.

You can do this for any feeling. Like, for example, if you claim you're feeling happy. Why? What makes you think that. What makes you think happy is the right word?

Nothing. Happy is simply the word I have chosen to ascribe to this specific set of similar feelings. From my observations of others behaviour and their described experiences, I believe that what I feel when I say I'm happy and what they feel when they say they're happy is broadly similar.

What's your point with this?

Nope.

Nope, you disagree? Or nope, you agree that it's not a valid basis for that argument?

See above.

You know, you could stand to actually attempt discussion instead of snapping off difficult to interpret one word answers. I'm not actually sure what your response to either of these points are.

 

[1241Penguin]

@dylansan

I can certainly agree that although I think of Danoff's approach to this whole issue as the most logical, it is also a bit too idealistic in this day and age. Perhaps it will take a couple of generations for people to be completely accepting of the fact that men and women can do things that is typical of the other gender. If you look like a man and dress like a woman, there's no doubt I think that you will be getting odd looks while walking around town. Ideally, this situation shouldn't be a problem in a first place. Practically though, if a person feels the need to identify with another gender today, then by all means go ahead and do what makes you happy. I know that social pressures are tough to ignore.

 

[Imari]

Practically though, if a person feels the need to identify with another gender today, then by all means go ahead and do what makes you happy. I know that social pressures are tough to ignore.

Even without all social pressure, you can take a person and stand them in front of two groups of people. One group is a varied selection of men, the other a varied selection of women.

Ask the person which group they most identify with with regards to gender.

Some will say the men. Some will say the women. Some will say both or somewhere in between. Some will say neither.

That's OK and completely normal. This is not something that we're trying to stamp out, like homosexuality 100 years ago. There are and will probably always be two sexes. The human brain being what it is, sometimes people will feel like they belong more in a group that they're not in (despite in this case being placed in a group by biology).

This is not about getting odd looks around town. This is about whether it's "natural" for a man to be more comfortable feeling and behaving like a woman, whatever that may be for them. Or whether this is something that is all in people's heads and they're just making it up because society.

 

[Danoff]

Don't have time to respond to everything at the moment, but I thought I'd respond to this one.

I don't see how you can possibly argue with someone's perception of their own feelings.

I'm not arguing, just pointing out that it's sexist. Watch this "I just have this innate feeling that because I'm white, I'm better than black people. It's just how I feel". No chance calling that racist?

 

[LeMansAid]

Why? Do you have to explain why you like a sunny day? Why you like strawberry ice cream? Why you're scared of spiders? Why you're scared of heights?

Feelings don't necessarily have reasons, sometimes they just are.

Except once we're at "I feel male", it's already explaining a feeling. Actually not explaining it would be fine.

I'm not arguing, just pointing out that it's sexist. Watch this "I just have this innate feeling that because I'm white, I'm better than black people. It's just how I feel". No chance calling that racist?

More confrontational than it need be. Try "I've never felt right with my body. Mentally I feel way more athletically able than my body manages. I think I'm a black person trapped in a white body".

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm not arguing, just pointing out that it's sexist.

How so, for it to be sexist it would need to be unfair to other people. Feeling a certain way about oneself is one's own business, no?

 

[LeMansAid]

How so, for it to be sexist it would need to be unfair to other people. Feeling a certain way about oneself is one's own business, no?

"Call me black because I feel athletic" goes well beyond oneself. As does "Call me a woman because..........".

Further, is it not sexist if someone thinks to themselves "Women are so stupid"? It may be that no other person will ever hear the sentiment, and will remain unaffected by it - but surely it's still sexist. It's a sexist thought.