@Danoff I felt before that you was only participating to troll and cause upset, and I still get that vibe from you. You are failing to take in any information from anyone, no matter who they are.
I'm taking it all in. Listening and not being persuaded are not equivalent... and I don't judge information based on
who is stating it, I judge it based on what is being stated.
Throughout this entire thread you have been exactly the same, even ignoring information put forth by
@niky, at least 2 trans individuals, and a person with a friend who has the wrong chromosomes, but was still born female. All what you have been told since the start of this thread, shows that it is not so straight forward to use Chromosomes as the definition of ones physical sex.
I've explained quite clearly why it is, even in light of that information. What I do
not understand is how someone transgendered can decide that they are of another sex without being sexist.
@Obelisk friend for instance wouldn't have been noted down as been female at birth based on her chromosomes, but on her genitalia, as is every newborn. Most people go their entire lives without even knowing what their chromosomes are, as they are not often tested at all. They certainly do not get done on standard tests when someone is ill. Hell, I am trans, and the doctors have never, not once in over 5 years, checked to see if my chromosomes are xy or xx.
What's your point here? That this person can go their whole lives thinking that they're female and find out that they're male? That's fine.
When I read that I thought it was a brilliant bit of sly self-correction and self-deprecation. It made me laugh, and it made me proud (of you). Firstly though, is that an accurate inference? Secondly, does that mean you wouldn't use "Men and women are different. Get over it." in reference to the situation if you had your time over? I would otherwise have trouble reconciling that statement, considering it's context, with what you're asserting here.
Well I don't want to get rid of any good will that I've caused. The law is a bright line in the sand. We say people can be licensed to drive at 16 not because every 16 year old will be ready to drive, but because it's a convenient place to draw the line. Some people will never be ready to drive. Some people will never be mature enough to vote, or drink, or smoke pot, or have intercourse, or procreate... but the law cannot be entirely tailored to every single individual. So... I have no problem with the law prescribing different outcomes in cases of statutory rape for different genders.
Is it perfect? No. But it's more perfect than attempting to treat everyone the same regardless of gender. Equal protection applies in circumstances where the distinction is arbitrary, and in this case it is not.
I am sorry, but can you please elaborate on how this is a logical response in regards to someone who was born physically female but with XY chromosomes?
They have XY chromosomes, so they're chromosomally male.
We are talking about an intersex individual in this regard, someone who was assigned female at birth based on their genitalia; and someone, with the information we have been provided by
@Obelisk, who is happy as such. Someone who's gender identity matches what was between their legs at birth, their physical sex.
Uh huh. That's fine. They're still male. Why does this affect that person? It is who they are.
Gender identity has nothing to do with gender role. Gender role, AKA how the gender "ought to be", is sexist... but that's a societal thing.
Transgenders don't go "Hmm I wanna be a girl... what do girls like to do..? Oh, shopping of course! That'll make me lady-like!"
Well, maybe some do. But I'd argue that those people aren't true transgenders. Pretending to be a girl and just innately feeling like you are one are two completely separate things.
What do you mean "innately" feeling like you're a sex. What does it feel like to be a sex? I do not understand this "innate" business and I don't think it exists. I do not innately feel like a man. I'm a human. If you told me my chromosomes were XX, that wouldn't change anything about me whatsoever. I wouldn't argue that I'm male either, it doesn't matter. I am who I am.
Because she looked like one, raised as one, felt like she was one?
What difference does it make what she looks like? How she was raised? I think everyone in this thread would agree that neither of those makes any difference whatsoever to your sex. And what does it mean to feel like a sex or gender?
you'd be saying that gender dysphoria isn't a genuinely real thing.
Gender dysphoria is a genuine thing, caused by people not feeling about their sex the way society has taught them that they should feel about their sex. Instead they feel like they fit better into the other sex because of what society has taught them about that sex. Gender dysphoria is caused by artificial gender definitions.
Just to make sure
sure I'm understanding
@Danoff however:
If you say that you identify with a certain gender, it means that you are acknowledging the fact that that gender has certain inherent traits, all the while implying that it is wrong for that trait to exist in the other gender (because otherwise, why would you want to identify with that gender in the first place?)
If I want to identify myself as a girl because I prefer the colour pink and like to wear pink clothes (true story by the way, I did like pink as a young boy, and begged my mom to buy me a pink shirt with hearts on it), it's suggesting that
only girls can like pink and wear pink clothes, and that boys shouldn't be doing so.
Similarly, if a girl wants to identify as boy because she likes to play with cars instead of dolls, and wants to wear pants instead of dresses, it is suggesting that
only boys can play with cars and wear pants...
...which, as explained previously
here, would be sexist, and is, as far as I can tell, a social issue above all else. Why can't boys wear pink? Why can't girls play with toy cars? Why does a boy who wants to wear pink
have to identify with a different gender to do so? Why does a girl who wants to play with toy cars
have to identify with a different gender to do so? Seems to me that social pressure is the only reason that's preventing boys from wearing pink or girls from playing with cars.
Consider this: A young male child is left alone on a deserted island with absolutely no social contact; he has never ever interacted with society. There are two items in front of him: a Barbie doll house and a hot pink tutu. Will he ever feel the need to identify with another gender if he chooses to play with the Barbies and puts on the tutu? Without the influence of society, I really doubt it.
Yes and...
It goes deeper than that. Beyond the superficial descriptions of what one gender or another might prefer (like playing with dolls or wearing particular clothing), I submit that there is no reason you can put forth to feel like you need to be called one gender or another that isn't sexist or arbitrary.
And to put that to the test, I'll pose myself a question. Danoff, why do you feel you must be called male? Why can you not be called female?
Well, I like driving and working on cars - sexist.
I'm attracted to women - simply not specific to men
I look like a man - simply not specific to men
I have male genetalia - some men do not, some women do
I think like a man - sexist.
I have X amount of testosterone - not specific to men
I have X amount of estrogen - not specific to men
I think logically rather than emotionally - sexist
I have xy chromosomes - that one is hard to argue with
I can't think of any reason besides chromosomes why I can argue that I should be called male. And honestly I don't care about my chromosomes. If everyone around me wanted to call me female and it made sense to them to do so, fine. I have no issues with that. There's nothing wrong with being female and having the traits I have.
That said, how is a transgender feeling that they have to have x or y genitlia between their legs sexist? Can you prove in any way, shape or form that there is a sexist implication for someone who feels that they should be a specific gender?
There's no reason that feeling like you have to have x or y genitalia between your legs should cause you to change your gender. Men and women lose, change, and have both sets of genitalia. It's not a discriminating trait.
Genuine transgenders (i.e. those who experience gender dysphoria, which is a biological disorder) don't go "I liked playing with barbie dolls when I was a kid, and the color pink is pretty swell... *GASP* I MUST BE A GIRL!". Their feeling of transgenderness is just an innate sense that there's some sort of disconnect between their body and mind.
Nobody is saying that they shouldn't change their body however they want. The part that becomes problematic is when they insist that society give them a label for whatever reason they feel they should have that label. Whatever their reason is, it's sexist or arbitrary.
Note that he said
with and not
as.
He's trying to make an association between gender identity and social identity. They are not the same thing.
I.E. I am a male. -> Identifying myself as a person who has a penis and testicles between their legs and is male mentally. (Gender identity)
I am American -> Identifying myself as part of a group of people who are associated with a certain flag and block of land. (social identity)
Edit: Also what
@Lain said. I couldn't find a way to phrase it.
What does it mean to be a "male" mentally. A person with a penis and testicles can be a woman.
People disagree on what it is to be American. To some, you need to have been born here. To others, you need to live here. To still others, you need to have an "American" mentality and cannot be American regardless of where you stand or were born so long as you do not like hot dogs, guns, and fireworks. If the rest of the world only calls you an american based on where you were born, and you go around insisting that everyone call you an American because you like hot dogs, guns, and fireworks, you're stereotyping and wrong. If you go around insisting that everyone call you American based on where you stand instead of where you were born, you're just fighting an arbitrary battle that has no real meaning.
You are missing the point though, Chromosomes, no matter what they are, are not a fool proof way to say what sex or gender someone is. As is the case with
@Obelisk friend, something went wrong. And for all intents and purposes they are female in every way, and they was born what way inside and out; they just happen to have the wrong chromosomes.
You can't have the wrong chromosomes. Your chromosomes are your chromosomes. There's no "I was born with the wrong chromosomes", that's like saying you were born with the wrong DNA or the wrong parents, it is you. What does it mean to be "female in every way". What criteria are you assigning females? Genitalia, well that's not a good one. Outward appearance? That's very faulty. How they think, their hormone levels, the kind of clothes they like or their mannerisms or what entertainment they prefer? Or their sexuality? None of it makes them female. There's only one thing in that list that can't be wrong, and it's the chromosomes.
We are not talking about someone like myself who it is assumed is an XY male (again, my chromosomes have never been tested; so who knows?), raised as a male, and who has transitioned to female due to a working diagnosis of severe gender dysphoria
How exactly have you transitioned to female? What makes you female and why?
Trans issues put aside in this regard, the statements that
@Danoff has made in regards to
@Obelisk friend are not only wrong, but they are actually very hateful towards an individual who is not transgender.
Please quote me being hateful. And no, saying that a statement is sexist or racist is not hateful. I'm one of the few people on this board who defends peoples' right to be sexist and racist.
