Transgender Thread.

[Obelisk]

Cool speech but still doesn't answer my questions. Why is it ok to identify as male or female when you don't have the genetic makeup of one, but not ok to identify as another race when you don't have the genetic makeup of that race? Simple question.

Before I continue - learn to read! I talked about a case where the genetic makeup would be a moot point.

It is okay to identify as a gender opposite or different from your physical sex because it could very well be how your brain is wired to function - some people spend their whole lives feeling like they've got the wrong body, and that can't be 'fixed' or changed in any way. There is no concrete reason for why someone feels differently about their body, but it happens regardless.

I've already said this once, I'm going to repeat it in case your eyes stop being blind and you read the details: A person's mental gender can result from a number of factors: environment, hormones, genetic makeup, and how their brain is wired.

Trying to pass yourself off as another race can be downright offensive to that ethnic community. I.E. someone claiming to identify as African American and then using blackface to make themselves be like that ethnic group can be seen as incredibly racist.

Again, I counter your question with one of my own. Read it. Answer it.

If a person has a sex chromosome pair of XY and is a fully functional female, what gender are they? In addition, how would you classify hermaphrodites if you are looking strictly at physical sex?

 

[Dan]

And there has been an anti-trans bombing at a Target. All we bloody well want to do is use the bathroom.

https://m.mic.com/articles/145804/a...w-that-we-must-keep-bathrooms-safe#.lyIMsx5hO

Aslo, just a reminder that the correct phrasing wouldn't be transgenders or transgendered, but transgender

Just started working as a cashier at another supermarket. Glad I'm not at Target.

As an aside, mic.com seems so pathetic. Annoying pop-ups, and the "Who runs the world? GIRLS. Sign up for your feminist propaganda of the day" bull:censored: makes me want to throw up. Sorry if you or anyone else enjoy that site. Just my $0.02.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Before I continue - learn to read! I talked about a case where the genetic makeup would be a moot point.

It is okay to identify as a gender opposite or different from your physical sex because it could very well be how your brain is wired to function - some people spend their whole lives feeling like they've got the wrong body, and that can't be 'fixed' or changed in any way. There is no concrete reason for why someone feels differently about their body, but it happens regardless.

I've already said this once, I'm going to repeat it in case your eyes stop being blind and you read the details: A person's mental gender can result from a number of factors: environment, hormones, genetic makeup, and how their brain is wired.

Trying to pass yourself off as another race can be downright offensive to that ethnic community. I.E. someone claiming to identify as African American and then using blackface to make themselves be like that ethnic group can be seen as incredibly racist.

Again, I counter your question with one of my own. Read it. Answer it.

If a person has a sex chromosome pair of XY and is a fully functional female, what gender are they? In addition, how would you classify hermaphrodites if you are looking strictly at physical sex?

It is okay to identify as a gender opposite or different from your physical sex different race because it could very well be how your brain is wired to function - some people spend their whole lives feeling like they've got the wrong body race, and that can't be 'fixed' or changed in any way. There is no concrete reason for why someone feels differently about their body race, but it happens regardless.

All of the reasoning you've provided so far applies to race as well as gender so you still haven't answered the question, sorry. Race is genetics, sex is genetics. All you are saying is, if you feel differently than your genetics you can just wish your genetics away and be the opposite of you genetic heritage. If you can wish away one, you should be able to wish away the other. Whether someone is offended by that or not is irrelevant.

Just started working as a cashier at another supermarket. Glad I'm not at Target.

As an aside, mic.com seems so pathetic. Annoying pop-ups, and the "Who runs the world? GIRLS. Sign up for your feminist propaganda of the day" bull:censored: makes me want to throw up. Sorry if you or anyone else enjoy that site. Just my $0.02.

It's not like Target has some exclusivity on workplace violence.

 

[Obelisk]

It is okay to identify as a gender opposite or different from your physical sex different race because it could very well be how your brain is wired to function - some people spend their whole lives feeling like they've got the wrong body race, and that can't be 'fixed' or changed in any way. There is no concrete reason for why someone feels differently about their body race, but it happens regardless.

All of the reasoning you've provided so far applies to race as well as gender so you still haven't answered the question, sorry. Race is genetics, sex is genetics. If you can wish away one, you should be able to wish away the other. Whether someone is offended by that or not is irrelevant.

Answer my damn question, [redacted]. I've asked you twice now.

Edit: Here.

If a person has a sex chromosome pair of XY and is a fully functional female, what gender are they? In addition, how would you classify hermaphrodites if you are looking strictly at physical sex?

 

[Dan]

Answer my damn question, you dick. I've asked you twice now.

Settle down, settle down.

 

[Obelisk]

Settle down, settle down.

When he actually answers the question instead of dodging it.

 

[Lizard]

When he actually answers the question instead of dodging it.

He meant don't call people things like that. It will get you banned.

 

[Obelisk]

He meant don't call people things like that. It will get you banned.

Corrected. @Dan needs to edit now.

 

[Lain]

Answer my damn question, you Richard.

Really? Totally didn't have him pegged as a Richard... Always thought he was more of a Johnny, myself.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Answer my damn question, you dick. I've asked you twice now.

Edit: Here.

Sorry, I don't respond to people filled with internet rage. And I can't answer your question until you define for me why you should be able to change your gender at will but not your race. Your special cases that you trot out don't answer the question and asking questions doesn't answer the question. I still don't see any concrete reason for the difference.

 

[FoolKiller]

I've already said this once, I'm going to repeat it in case your eyes stop being blind and you read the details: A person's mental gender can result from a number of factors: environment, hormones, genetic makeup, and how their brain is wired.

Trying to pass yourself off as another race can be downright offensive to that ethnic community. I.E. someone claiming to identify as African American and then using blackface to make themselves be like that ethnic group can be seen as incredibly racist.

Playing devil's advocate here:

How do you know someone with black skin might not have a different mental race due to environment, hormones, genetic makeup, and how their brain is wired?

To assume one would just pretend they are only claiming to be a different race and being offensive is very close minded.


Similarly, with my health issues I often joke that if you are only as old as you feel then I'm an 85-year-old man. I sure as hell don't feel like a 37-year-old father who can protect his child and pick her up to comfort her. I feel like a bumbling old fool whose body won't do what it should. When my grandmother was alive we could talk for hours about our day-to-day lives because I had more in common with her than my wife when it came to that stuff.

The article's comment on identifying as a senior citizen actually kind of struck home with me. I do know how that feels. I also know how it feels to legally use handicap parking spaces and accessibility services, only to be glared at by elderly people and even have police check my authenticity.

I agree that the examples in the article went off the rails when discussing job positions and things that require training to actually do, but some of it wasn't completely out of bounds. Race, gender, age, and likely other identifying aspects of humanity might have mental identities that don't match their genetics. To claim one is but any others aren't is a bit close minded.



That said, privately owned property should be able to have whatever policies they wish. I would be transgender friendly if I owned a business, but I wouldn't force other businesses to do the same.

As for the schools: The federal government is not in control of schools. They are run on a local level. Federal education programs are financial extortion to try to get control of schools. To tie funding to a controversial issue is wrong and can have very bad consequences.

The problem with transgender and sex divided bathrooms is that unless the individual is completely passable to the point that there is no question they are at risk no matter which bathroom they use. I figure that it's only a matter of time before a false claim of sexual assault by a transgender female is made and we already know assault against transgender people occurs.

Everyone needs to step back and recognize that all sides are dealing with pushing comfort boundaries. Forcing the situation either way is just asking for trouble.

 

[Obelisk]

Sorry, I don't respond to people filled with internet rage. And I can't answer your question until you define for me why you should be able to change your gender at will but not your race. Your special cases that you trot out don't answer the question and asking questions doesn't answer the question. I still don't see any concrete reason for the difference.

I refuse to continue the discussion until you answer my question.

If a person has a sex chromosome pair of XY and is a fully functional female, what gender are they? In addition, how would you classify hermaphrodites if you are looking strictly at physical sex?

Edit: If you absolutely insist on race vs gender, here.

Before I actually justify my answer, "transracial" is not the proper term for the race component of this - transracial means a child who is a different race than their parents (White parents with Asian child, etc.)

I have also said several times that changing gender is not always "at will". It amazes me how difficult that concept is for some people to grasp.

Let's look at the case of Rachel Dolezal - the Caucasian woman who 'identified' as African American and compare it to someone who is transsexual.

In Rachel's case, she claims to have identified as African American for approximately eight years circa 2015 (so she started around 2007). In her case, her...Let's call it 'misrepresentation'...led to her professional gain. She was made the head of her local NAACP group, given teaching jobs, sold artwork and was paid to speak under the guise of a black woman. She claimed to be an authority on racism, oppression and the experience of black people. Even when she didn't experience any of it. She fabricated her family history to appear African-American, faked her children and darkened her appearance/altered her hair to be racially ambiguous. In this situation, the racial identity was used to lie and deceive.

Compare to a transsexual person. They come out as trans to be truthful. They feel as though they are not the same gender/sex as what their body has written out for them. They have to admit that there is a difference between their gender and sex so they can receive hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery to match the gender that they feel they are. A transition like that can take several years or longer - and the person would be subject to a lot of bigotry, aggression and hate. An example - According to GLAAD, in 2011, 45% of all hate murders were against transsexual women. Another problem they face in the long term is getting identification and things like getting access to the right bathroom.

So, now to the actual question and answer:

The reason it is OK for people to be able to change their gender identity, but not racial identity, is simply due to honesty. People who tend to claim they are of a certain ethnic group are more likely to manipulate and exaggerate that part of their ethnicity to get privileges they would not have otherwise. Transsexuals face a lot of trouble and potential loss of life and limb for being honest - most people would not want to lie about something that would hurt them or even kill them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I refuse to continue the discussion until you answer my question.

There's no need to answer the 1 in 1,000's or 1 in 10,000's exception until you explain to me why declaring gender is fundamentally different than declaring race. You still haven't answered my first question and we can't move forward until you do. If you don't have an answer it's ok.

 

[Lain]

The way I see it, Gender is to sex as ethnicity is to race.

You might be white, but if you're raised in "the hood", you'll identify as a hood rat and feel belonging when you're with people that share the same cultural background.

 

[dxm8975]

I refuse to continue the discussion until you answer my question.

Urging the others to answer your questions you think are important forcibly ain't best thing for you to do here, at the least in the discussion thread like this I suppose... (Much less in case your questions are not necessarily coherent / relevant to what is being discussed atm)

 

[Obelisk]

Urging the others to answer your questions you think are important forcibly ain't best thing for you to do here, at the least in the discussion thread like this I suppose... (Much less in case your questions are not necessarily coherent / relevant to what is being discussed atm)

The question actually has a point to it. Several people here have said that sex/gender is nothing but what their junk is when they're born. So my question has a purpose, it just wasn't added at the right time

Edit: Currently writing up my answer to Johnny.

 

[Obelisk]

Edit: If you absolutely insist on race vs gender, here.

Before I actually justify my answer, "transracial" is not the proper term for the race component of this - transracial means a child who is a different race than their parents (White parents with Asian child, etc.)

I have also said several times that changing gender is not always "at will". It amazes me how difficult that concept is for some people to grasp.

Let's look at the case of Rachel Dolezal - the Caucasian woman who 'identified' as African American and compare it to someone who is transsexual.

In Rachel's case, she claims to have identified as African American for approximately eight years circa 2015 (so she started around 2007). In her case, her...Let's call it 'misrepresentation'...led to her professional gain. She was made the head of her local NAACP group, given teaching jobs, sold artwork and was paid to speak under the guise of a black woman. She claimed to be an authority on racism, oppression and the experience of black people. Even when she didn't experience any of it. She fabricated her family history to appear African-American, faked her children and darkened her appearance/altered her hair to be racially ambiguous. In this situation, the racial identity was used to lie and deceive.

Compare to a transsexual person. They come out as trans to be truthful. They feel as though they are not the same gender/sex as what their body has written out for them. They have to admit that there is a difference between their gender and sex so they can receive hormone therapy or gender reassignment surgery to match the gender that they feel they are. A transition like that can take several years or longer - and the person would be subject to a lot of bigotry, aggression and hate. An example - According to GLAAD, in 2011, 45% of all hate murders were against transsexual women. Another problem they face in the long term is getting identification and things like getting access to the right bathroom.

So, now to the actual question and answer:

The reason it is OK for people to be able to change their gender identity, but not racial identity, is simply due to honesty. People who tend to claim they are of a certain ethnic group are more likely to manipulate and exaggerate that part of their ethnicity to get privileges they would not have otherwise. Transsexuals face a lot of trouble and potential loss of life and limb for being honest - most people would not want to lie about something that would hurt them or even kill them.

@Johnnypenso

 

[FoRiZon]

Wow. I think i saw the most elaborate internet rage right here. Just wow, holy crap.

 

[Obelisk]

Wow. I think i saw the most elaborate internet rage right here. Just wow, holy crap.

I have issues with people ignoring parts of a post. That's all. I could've handled it better though...

 

[dxm8975]

Wow. I think i saw the most elaborate internet rage right here. Just wow, holy crap.

Most elaborate one? Hm over here we've got plenty that are as elaborate as this one.

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Johnnypenso

You're doing nothing more than using the ends to justify the means. People will be mad or lie if this happens but more honest if this happens so one is ok and the other is not. Whether people will lie or be dishonest about race or gender or ethnicity or anything else does not change the underlying principle that you are declaring genetics to be irrelevant and feelings to be paramount in determining your gender. I don't see any compelling reason whereby you can set aside your genetics for one idea but not the other.

 

[niky]

Personal racial identification is often purely cultural. And a person's views and feelings regarding their personal ethnicity can be swayed by cultural expectations... there's an interesting study regarding African American males raised in white middle class homes who start underperforming academically when exposed to African American culture and societal expectations of black males in America.

But any choice to "change" your race is simply lying about your ethnic background. Ethnic backgrounds which, in the grand scheme of things, don't really mean anything except as a legal artifact.

There are no compelling hormonal or genetic reasons to declare yourself as identifying with a different race.

----

Gender identification, on the other hand, is difficult to classify solely as a social construct, and it involves a whole lot more, including genetics, hormones, pre-natal hormones and brain structure.

Simply: You can surgically reassign genders and indoctrinate a person, telling them they're a boy or a girl, but if they're biologically wired to think and feel otherwise, they will think and feel otherwise.

Granted, there may be people who "choose" a gender identity for cultural or social reasons... or, in the case of "gender:cat", insanity... but for the vast majority of people, their "chosen" gender identity is not chosen, it simply is.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why is it ok to identify as male or female when you don't have the genetic makeup of one...

The same reason that you might like broccoli while your sibling hates it - it's a matter of mental preference and predisposition. You do seem to be implying in some of your posts that it's an elective "choice", often that simply isn't the case.

Another problem with the "genetic makeup" argument is that it presumes that all girls look like girls and all boys look like boys. It's really not always that simple.

Yet another problem is, as @Obelisk points out, that some people's genetic identity simply doesn't tick an either/or box.

... but not ok to identify as another race when you don't have the genetic makeup of that race? Simple question.

Not that simple, you're conflating two very different things. Sex is universal, there was a time for each of us when we were neither one nor the other and we all had pretty-much-identical bits and pieces. Gender identity isn't set in the same way or at the same time - it can in fact change through a person's lifetime. The final differences in gender identity aren't necessarily visible in a person's appearance or behaviour.

Race is not universal and is bound up in a set of much more arbitrary physical and social differences. If you want to start getting into fixing groups of race then you have to get complicated and ditch ideas of colours, noses or brow weights because you're going to find common differences in gene pools from place to place with no overtly obvious physical differences. Take Icelandic women, for example, they're nearly all of British descent. How much do you think they identify with Brits as a cultural group? The answer is that they don't. The next obvious question is "and why would they?".

If by "racial identification" you mean cultural appropriation then there's no reason why that isn't okay at face value. If you mean "physical appearance" then that's okay too, people can make themselves look how they like. If you mean the community that one chooses to live in then that's fine too. That kind of self-identification and self-progression is a personal matter.

However, in all three cases that self-identification is bound to lead to hostility from some, particularly (as we've seen) when somebody "white" identifies as "black" - we saw hostility from minority communities borne of a history of genuine, severe western repression and hostility from majority communities seemingly borne of a horror that somebody might even want to do that. Those kind of reactions tell you that society has quite some way to go in accepting people's personal choices when it comes to being different.

What it still doesn't do is show that gender identity is a free choice.

EDIT: I need more coffee, maybe then I could put the argument as simply as @niky did

 

[LeMansAid]

If every person in the world was raised and lived with no knowledge of the other sex, and the social norms that are attached, I imagine the want for male/female body alterations would be barely more common than the examples of people who believe that they have a limb or limbs that should not be part of them.

Some people are intrinsically different to the norm. Of the those people, some will be perfectly fine with being a "black sheep", others will feel the need to find and be with their like. I hope that we can get to the point where accepted gender behaviours are essentially limitless, because at present our gender roles are incredibly rigid and in effect say to unique specimens "Be ok with being the odd one out, or go and join that lot over there". A man can't want to be a woman if he doesn't know what a woman is. I just can't believe, if in isolation, that many men at all would want the perfect storm of changes that the majority of trans men in our societies want.

I expect that someone will want to post a story of a 5 year old boy that hated his penis and wanted it gone, or some such, but that's not going to cut it (pardon the pun). a) There still needs to be an allowance for general amputation situations (penis, limbs, etc.), b) We are so drenched in gender role bias that even a situation that appears divorced from it is likely still going to be far from the reality of.

Willing to change my tune in the face of overwhelming evidence though.

 

[Danoff]

The notion of "identifying" with a certain race is racist just like the notion of "identifying" with a certain gender is sexist. No matter what you say your reasons are for "identifying" with a certain race/gender they will be racist/sexist. In order to "identify" with a race or gender, you must first identify some characteristic or mentality associated with that race or gender. Once you do that, you've made a racist/sexist generalization.

I identify with black people because I was raised in the hood (racist)
I identify with black people because I listen to a certain kind of music (racist)
...I like to wear certain clothes (racist)
...I speak a certain way (racist)
...because I like certain foods (racist)

I identify with women because I like to wear certain clothes/makeup (sexist)
...because I think like they do (sexist)
...because I feel like they do (sexist)
...because I'm more emotional than my male colleagues (sexist)
...because I like to cook (sexist)

I identify with white people because I come from white privilege (racist, twice)
...because I like money (racist)
...because I like going to the mall (racist)

I identify with asians because I'm good at math (racist)
...because I like asian food (racist)
...because I love asian movies (racist)
...because my parents want me to be a doctor (racist)

Some of these are supposed to be exaggerated, but literally there is no answer to the question of why you feel you're a different race/gender without ascribing some sort of generalization to that race/gender. At which point you're necessarily having a racist/sexist opinion.

...and no, the desire to alter your body does not mean you need to identify with the other gender. Even if it's modifying your genitalia.

 

[Lain]

The notion of "identifying" with a certain race is racist just like the notion of "identifying" with a certain gender is sexist. No matter what you say your reasons are for "identifying" with a certain race/gender they will be racist/sexist. In order to "identify" with a race or gender, you must first identify some characteristic or mentality associated with that race or gender. Once you do that, you've made a racist/sexist generalization.

I identify with black people because I was raised in the hood (racist)
I identify with black people because I listen to a certain kind of music (racist)
...I like to wear certain clothes (racist)
...I speak a certain way (racist)
...because I like certain foods (racist)

I identify with women because I like to wear certain clothes/makeup (sexist)
...because I think like they do (sexist)
...because I feel like they do (sexist)
...because I'm more emotional than my male colleagues (sexist)
...because I like to cook (sexist)

I identify with white people because I come from white privilege (racist, twice)
...because I like money (racist)
...because I like going to the mall (racist)

I identify with asians because I'm good at math (racist)
...because I like asian food (racist)
...because I love asian movies (racist)
...because my parents want me to be a doctor (racist)

There's a reason why I didn't use the word "black" in my post. You identify your culture, not your race.

Identifying with the culture of the hood doesn't make you black, and not all black people identify with said culture.


Gender is basically your "cultural/social sex"... and personally I find it a bit hard to wrap my mind around the concept, though I'd agree that it does seem sexist in some aspects. From what I gather, there's "Gender Identity" and "Gender Role"... with gender role seeming to be the most overtly sexist aspect, since that's all about societal expectations of a particular gender. AKA men are expected to bring home the bacon, while woman's role is... "Make me a sammich!".

Some of these are supposed to be exaggerated, but literally there is no answer to the question of why you feel you're a different race/gender without ascribing some sort of generalization to that race/gender.

Gender Identity has biological factors such as hormones... so I don't think you can really classify that as sexist in any way, shape or form. You don't identify as a woman because you like makeup and jewelry, you identify as a woman because you inherently feel feminine in spite of your frank & beans due to your hormones.

And that I guess is where we get into the whole concept of there being multiple genders... I guess really it's more like a spectrum of how masculine and/or feminine you feel, though most people's masculinity/femininity will fall in line with their sex... which is probably how gender roles got formed in the first place.





At the end of the day though, as far as the topical topic of bathrooms are concerned, I think people are conflating gender and sex. Male and female are sexes, and it's the two categories bathrooms are divided into. Your gender identity has nothing to do with which one you ought to be tinkling in... I mean, are the genderless and pangender folk just supposed to hold it in?

Realistically though, I think the solution to that problem is make it very clear the restrooms are labeled after sexes, and have a unisex/family restroom or two available for anyone who, for whatever reason, feels uncomfortable using the restroom for their assigned sex.

 

[Danoff]

Gender Identity has biological factors such as hormones... so I don't think you can really classify that as sexist in any way, shape or form. You don't identify as a woman because you like makeup and jewelry, you identify as a woman because you inherently feel feminine due to your hormones in spite of your frank & beans.

And that I guess is where we get into the whole concept of there being multiple genders... I guess really it's more like a spectrum of how masculine and/or feminine you feel,

Explain to me what it means to feel feminine or masculine without making a sexist generalization about what that entails.

 

[Lain]

Explain to me what it means to feel feminine or masculine without making a sexist generalization about what that entails.

Just as there are scientifically accurate generalizations you can make about men/women physically, and the same is true mentally.

Not things like loving barbie dolls and the color pink, but just broad/general things like how you think, your emotionality, etc.

What exactly that feels like? I haven't really a clue. (Neither do most "cisgender" individuals apparently, as we're all confounded as to how the opposite sex thinks. )

Nonetheless, hormones and their influence on gender identity is scientifically researched, and I'm not privy to any sort of data or insight to argue otherwise.

 

[Danoff]

Just as there are scientifically accurate generalizations you can make about men/women physically, and the same is true mentally.

Not things like loving barbie dolls and the color pink, but just broad/general things like how you think, your emotionality, etc.

It'll still end up being a generalization.

 

[Lain]

It'll still end up being a generalization.

Except they're not based in sexism, they're based in science.

The scientific fact that women generally have a higher percentage of body fat than men, for instance, is not sexist. Even if some women out there might not be representative of may have a lower percentage of body fat than most men.