Transgender Thread.

[eran0004]

Just want to throw in a question.

What do you think about Transgender children or children learning transgender?

I'm all for giving children the FYI about there is a thing called transgender when they come across it and don't know it yet and just like with every other person, encourage them not to be mean to trans.

However I'm not for Transgender children, their brains aren't exactly developed enough to fully understand the concept of transitions especially since if a child might regret their decision down the line where they already made process, it could be too late. I say wait until children are old enough to truly understand the concept of Trans and the risks before actually transitioning.

I don't think you need to give children an FYI about transgender. Boys and girls spontaneously traverses gender boundaries all through the childhood.

You only need to give them the FYI saying transgender is okay once you've taught them that transgender is wrong, which is done by punishing them when acting outside of their assigned roles and rewarding them when acting according to the same.

 

[Com Fox]

I don't think you need to give children an FYI about transgender. Boys and girls spontaneously traverses gender boundaries all through the childhood.

I don't mean like it's a requirement for Parents to do at a specific time, but if the child comes across it and has no idea what it means, wouldn't be a bad idea to give the child the heads up.

 

[Lizard]

I don't mean like it's a requirement for Parents to do at a specific time, but if the child comes across it and has no idea what it means, wouldn't be a bad idea to give the child the heads up.

Eh. Most trans kids look like they are the gender they identify as so no need to say anything really. Pre puberty the only real differences are what you have downstairs, how you dress and how you have your hair. It is only in puberty that males and females start to become very different.

 

[Danoff]

Eh. Most trans kids look like they are the gender they identify as so no need to say anything really. Pre puberty the only real differences are what you have downstairs, how you dress and how you have your hair. It is only in puberty that males and females start to become very different.

...physically...

Mentally males and females are (statistically) very different from birth.

 

[Lizard]

...physically...

Mentally males and females are (statistically) very different from birth.

And? I am saying as long as you don't let them see their privates then just say to your kids that the other kid is the gender they identify as. No need to mention they are trans.

 

[Danoff]

And? I am saying as long as you don't let them see their privates then just say to your kids that the other kid is the gender they identify as. No need to mention they are trans.

I know, that wasn't really about your point. I was just pointing out that male and female children are (statistically) quite different from day 1. So your statement was incorrect, but not the point you were making.

 

[prousonhairy]

I don't really have a lot to say on the topic, but I just read this article about a nine year old trans girl on the cover of National Geographic. That stuff really doesn't bother me, It's just an interesting choice for Natinal Geographic, unless it's a ratings thing, to get people talking about their magazine. (I guess that's kind of a no-brainer):

Trans girl, 9, makes history on National Geographic cover

http://usat.ly/2i1XvPg

 

[ryzno]

A 9 year old doesn't know what they really are or want.

 

[huskeR32]

A 9 year old doesn't know what they really are or want.

I can't find the article anywhere that's not behind a paywall, but in a 2012 issue of the Journal of Homosexuality, Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, who has a Ph.D. in Developmental Genetics from Brown, says that a sense of gender identity can often emerge by the age of three.

To be clear, I absolutely would not advocate any surgical or hormonal steps be taken at that young of an age, because studies suggest that half or more of those children will one day "switch back."

But that still leaves a significant number of children who do, in fact, "know what they really are or want" when, or even well before, they are nine years old.

 

[Danoff]

A 9 year old doesn't know what they really are or want.

I can't find the article anywhere that's not behind a paywall, but in a 2012 issue of the Journal of Homosexuality, Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, who has a Ph.D. in Developmental Genetics from Brown, says that a sense of gender identity can often emerge by the age of three.

To be clear, I absolutely would not advocate any surgical or hormonal steps be taken at that young of an age, because studies suggest that half or more of those children will one day "switch back."

But that still leaves a significant number of children who do, in fact, "know what they really are or want" when, or even well before, they are nine years old.

I agree entirely with @huskeR32 here, but I think what @ryzno was really trying to say was that you can't act on what a 9 year old claims to be or want with any certainty.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I can't find the article anywhere that's not behind a paywall, but in a 2012 issue of the Journal of Homosexuality, Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, who has a Ph.D. in Developmental Genetics from Brown, says that a sense of gender identity can often emerge by the age of three.

To be clear, I absolutely would not advocate any surgical or hormonal steps be taken at that young of an age, because studies suggest that half or more of those children will one day "switch back."

But that still leaves a significant number of children who do, in fact, "know what they really are or want" when, or even well before, they are nine years old.

I've read 80% eventually switch back. That means that 4/5 kids think they know what they want but really don't, at least not in the long term. Which is the problem with kids generally, they aren't much into long term planning, beyond the next school day, the next sports event or the next party.

 

[prousonhairy]

Nine, that's before puberty even hits in most cases. I know transgender really doesn't have anything to do with sexual preference, I think? I'm not wanting to sound like a fool, I really don't know a lot on the subject. I'm ok with anyone making any choice they want, when they are old enough to make that choice. 9 seems a little young for something like that. Maybe it isn't though, I don't want to be judgemental. I know when I was 9 I wasn't even thinking about girls, or my sexuality. I was busy defending Castle Grey Skull from Skeletor and his minions.

 

[Exorcet]

Nine, that's before puberty even hits in most cases. I know transgender really doesn't have anything to do with sexual preference, I think? I'm not wanting to sound like a fool, I really don't know a lot on the subject. I'm ok with anyone making any choice they want, when they are old enough to make that choice. 9 seems a little young for something like that. Maybe it isn't though, I don't want to be judgemental. I know when I was 9 I wasn't even thinking about girls, or my sexuality. I was busy defending Castle Grey Skull from Skeletor and his minions.

It will vary from person to person I'm sure. My choice of career hasn't really changed since I was about 5. My mind has changed a lot on some other things though. I don't like the idea of tying maturity to age, it's certainly going to be wrong in some situations.

 

[Imari]

A 9 year old doesn't know what they really are or want.

Wow.

That's pretty rough. So you ignore all the opinions of 9 year olds because you know better?

They may not have much life experience, but they certainly do know what they are and what they want. It may be different to what they want later on in life, but how is that different to anyone else?

I've read 80% eventually switch back. That means that 4/5 kids think they know what they want but really don't, at least not in the long term. Which is the problem with kids generally, they aren't much into long term planning, beyond the next school day, the next sports event or the next party.

Humans aren't much into long term planning. How many adults get divorced? Move town? Change jobs? Make any number of major life changes that were right for them at the time but they later changed their mind?

How long does a decision have to stay valid before you're comfortable saying that it wasn't a waste of time?

Writing this stuff off just because they're kids isn't cool. Again, not much life experience but they're absolutely as aware as you are of what they want. Their perspective is a little different because of their age, but that's no reason to belittle their opinions and write them off. If anything, it's reason to teach them the advantages and pleasures of planning into the future and to help them do it in a way that meets their goals, not yours.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Humans aren't much into long term planning. How many adults get divorced? Move town? Change jobs? Make any number of major life changes that were right for them at the time but they later changed their mind?

How long does a decision have to stay valid before you're comfortable saying that it wasn't a waste of time?

Writing this stuff off just because they're kids isn't cool. Again, not much life experience but they're absolutely as aware as you are of what they want. Their perspective is a little different because of their age, but that's no reason to belittle their opinions and write them off. If anything, it's reason to teach them the advantages and pleasures of planning into the future and to help them do it in a way that meets their goals, not yours.

Inferring that the planning capabilities or self awareness of small children, with children as young as 3 being mentioned, is in any way comparable to that of adults is frankly ridiculous and not worth discussing. There may be exceptions to every rule but the exceptions don't make the rule.

I don't write "this stuff" off because they are kids and I'm not interested in looking cool. I personally don't care how people raise their children, I don't think it's the government's role to be in our bedrooms or in our homes generally to begin with, and, in the case of children, it's the parent's job to raise them as they see fit, within certain limitations of health and safety of course. If you want little Timmy to wear a skirt, little silk panties and play with Barbies I could care less. I just don't want him injected with anything, any pills popped or any knives going anywhere near his body until he's of legal age to consent to such treatment on his own.

 

[xyloscissor]

Is it really necessary or even acceptable to put a nine year old on the cover of a magazine to further a point or agenda? That seems a bit exploiting to me, maybe I am just old school but I think we should protect our youth from that sort of thing.

 

[Lizard]

silk panties

You sir are making me scared as to what you have been looking at.

 

[Johnnypenso]

You sir are making me scared as to what you have been looking at.

Not a fan of silk?

 

[ryzno]

Wow.

That's pretty rough. So you ignore all the opinions of 9 year olds because you know better?

They may not have much life experience, but they certainly do know what they are and what they want. It may be different to what they want later on in life, but how is that different to anyone else?

No, I don't ignore the opinion of children. But I don't think a child should be paraded around for some agenda.
As stated by Johnny, you want to give him a barbie fine. Don't start doing medical procedures to a child that might instantly regret their decision. Also don't go brainwashing the kid either that goes for both sides.

But at that age I believe it is best to leave well enough alone. A 9 year old doesn't even know the bullying they will receive for dressing like a girl by their 9 year old peers. Which can/will lead to depression and possibly suicide. What are we to do? Start teaching our kids it's ok not to accept your body before it and their brain has even finished developing?

My point is a child changes there mind a lot. Don't rush things but don't deny them the experience if they really want to "test the waters".

 

[Danoff]

But at that age I believe it is best to leave well enough alone.

Ok, but let's not pretend that things are "well enough" for a kid struggling with any kind of identity crisis.

A 9 year old doesn't even know the bullying they will receive for dressing like a girl by their 9 year old peers.

First of all, so what? We ask the 9 year old to suppress themselves because they might get bullied? Nice message. Also, I think you're a bit out of touch at this point. These days I think it's closer to being cool to be gay, transgender, or whatever else. Eventually we'll have kids pretending to be transgender to fit in.

Which can/will lead to depression and possibly suicide.

The fact that bullying can have consequences doesn't mean that we should teach our children to think of what the bullies would want before they act. Lots of things can lead to depression... being a teenager leads to depression and possibly suicide.

What are we to do? Start teaching our kids it's ok not to accept your body before it and their brain has even finished developing?

I'm with you here.

The message to kids needs to be "this is how you were born". Like it or not, that is a part of who you are. Maybe you have a huge nose, small boobs, big boobs, a penis you don't want, ugly hair, a shortened limb, a club foot, an anus that doesn't work, two sets of genitalia, a lazy eye, a missing limb, an underdeveloped limb (this one is a bit strange, a buddy of mine had one arm that just wouldn't develop much muscle), or any of 10,000 things that you might want to change about yourself. Like it or not, that's the body that you were born with, and almost none of us are happy with the body we have.

You can change it! Get a tattoo, nose surgery, breast augmentation/reduction, change gender, work out, whatever it is... you're allowed to change it. But first you have to understand that this is not something to be ashamed of. You are not a mistake. You may have been born with a medical condition - that's ok, lot of people are.

I don't think that we should be rushing to surgery to correct things at a young age based on identity, especially when identity is something that is still developing. Medical problems, sure. But even if they don't like their body, it is their body. There's nothing wrong with keeping it until you're old enough for society to be sure you can make your own decisions.

I will say, though, that I think there should be an exception to the no-gender-change-for-kids policy in the case of medical emergencies. And medical emergencies might include clinical depression with significant suicidal risk. I don't see much difference in a medical risk to a kid who is born with their intestines outside of their bodies who needs corrective surgery to survive, and a kid who will kill themselves because of gender identity problems (or any other problems) and who needs corrective surgery to survive. Judging the latter is more difficult, but if they need surgery to reach adulthood, their parents should provide it.

I would.

@Imari @Johnnypenso @Exorcet @huskeR32

 

[ryzno]

Ok, but let's not pretend that things are "well enough" for a kid struggling with any kind of identity crisis.

An identity crisis at 9, seriously?

First of all, so what? We ask the 9 year old to suppress themselves because they might get bullied? Nice message.

Don't rush things but don't deny them the experience if they really want to "test the waters".

Also, I think you're a bit out of touch at this point. These days I think it's closer to being cool to be gay, transgender, or whatever else. Eventually we'll have kids pretending to be transgender to fit in.

We must be living in two different worlds then. Anyways...

The fact that bullying can have consequences doesn't mean that we should teach our children to think of what the bullies would want before they act.

*Note: I'm not sure if I misunderstood this post*
That's as sensible, as not teaching a kid the consequences of stealing something.
By the age of 9 they should have grasped the idea of results happening cause of their actions. I see no problem warning them and trying to tell them for there own benefit. If they want to still go to school dressed up as the opposite sex fine. Be prepared for what might happen.
I mean isn't that the whole point in bringing up and teaching our children to be ready for the world?

Like I was thinking. Ok, start out with a toy, see how that goes and progress from there. I didn't say don't send them out how they want to be dressed, but don't do it day one either. As an adult, you should be able to observe the situation and react accordingly.

Edit:

@Imari @huskeR32

I love how you called in the crew to team up on me.

 

[Danoff]

An identity crisis at 9, seriously?

Yup.

*Note: I'm not sure if I misunderstood this post*
That's as sensible, as not teaching a kid the consequences of stealing something.
By the age of 9 they should have grasped the idea of results happening cause of their actions. I see no problem warning them and trying to tell them for there own benefit. If they want to still go to school dressed up as the opposite sex fine. Be prepared for what might happen.
I mean isn't that the whole point in bringing up and teaching our children to be ready for the world?

Like I was thinking. Ok, start out with a toy, see how that goes and progress from there. I didn't say don't send them out how they want to be dressed, but don't do it day one either. As an adult, you should be able to observe the situation and react accordingly.

That's not at all how your post came off. It sounded like when you said "leave well enough alone" that you would instruct a kid to dress based on how their peers would want them to dress. Preparing your kid for bullying is not really preparing them for the world. Or do you live in a world where you might be held down and beaten because you're smaller or dress funny? I don't. Kids do need to learn that they can be teased and outcast, and that those consequences are real. They also need to learn that some kids will break the rules and resort to violence, but that lesson is a fine line.

You're constantly saying the wrong thing with better intentions than it sounds. When you say that not teaching a kid to cater to bullying (criminal activity), is akin to not teaching them the consequences of stealing something (criminal activity), you completely miss the mark. Teaching a kid to cater to bullying would be like teaching them not to have property because it might get stolen. But I understand what you were trying to say, which is that it's important that they know that there are real social consequences to their actions, and they might not want to live with those consequences.

Your way of posting requires a ton of benefit of the doubt - often in the face of being demonstrably wrong - but I'm developing a little bit of a ryzno decoder ring.

 

[Ialyrn]

Cant believe I am posting in here again.

Some of you really need to do some actual research on all of this before you start going on about this that and the other. Here in the UK, and I assume it is similar in the USA and Canada (and other places where medical help is available). They only give under 16's hormone blockers just to stave off puberty, nothing more and nothing less. And there has to be a working diagnosis of gender dysphoria by at least 2 individual gender specialist doctors and an endocrinologist before they are even authorized for prescription. It has been proven to be less harmful both physiological and physically, and is fully reversible by the body itself once the hormone blockers are stopped with no damage at all. At the age of 16, and should they so desire; they can either take the hormones of the opposite sex and begin the puberty that matches their gender identity, or they can come off the blockers and carry on life as they where physically born. Then, and only after 2 full years on the hormones of the opposite physical sex (here in the UK anyway), is anyone in the UK eligible to go under the knife for any reassignment surgeries. This takes people right up to 18 years old before they go anywhere near a knife. Only exceptions to that, are when there is a serious risk of self harm and/or suicide owing to gender dysphoria. If you do not suffer with gender dysphoria, then you have no idea how bad it can get. as an example I would often take some tweezers and pluck each and every single chin, jaw, cheek, and upper lip hair out one by one. And all because of my own gender dysphoria.

Staving off puberty has been proven to be highly effective in helping people to transition.

@ryzno I can remember as far back as 3 years old, and I knew my gender was female then. I am 32 years old in January, I still know my gender is female.

@Danoff The only thing that makes us transgender people feel shame for how we are, is how we are portrayed in the media, and treated by people in general. We get shunned because we are different, because people consider us to be freaks and degenerates. We are constantly told all around that it is wrong by people who are clearly trying to be armchair Doctors, scientists, and sociologists; and who often have no further experience beyond reading a few articles on the internet or watching the odd documentary.

 

[Danoff]

@Danoff The only thing that makes us transgender people feel shame for how we are, is how we are portrayed in the media, and treated by people in general.

If you do not suffer with gender dysphoria, then you have no idea how bad it can get. as an example I would often take some tweezers and pluck each and every single chin, jaw, cheek, and upper lip hair out one by one. And all because of my own gender dysphoria.

You're proving me right. There's nothing wrong with having hair on your face - even if you feel you should be female. I'd be interested to hear your motivations behind plucking those hairs.

 

[Ialyrn]

You're proving me right. There's nothing wrong with having hair on your face - even if you feel you should be female. I'd be interested to hear your motivations behind plucking those hairs.

People staring, pointing at it, laughing at me and calling me things such as "freak", "he she", "it" and "thing". People going "is that a man or a woman". The problem isnt to do with me (or any other transgender person), it is to do with the fact that human beings like to be asshats to eachother; and berate them for any difference at all. That is the reason why I took tweezers to my facial hair, why I would spend hours (as in all day) plucking each individual hair methodically. Without it I got far less abuse from people, and got correctly gendered far more often.

So you may say I am proving your point, but that point is actually proven by all the people that just wont leave us be. Because to the world at large, it was deemed unacceptable for me to have any hint of facial hair; and it painted a very large target on my back and opened me up to abuse from the general populace. This has the knock-on effect of heightening gender dysphoria.

The same thing goes on with regards to breasts, or what genitals someone has. As soon as someone finds out I am a transwoman, the first thing they usually ask is "does that mean you have a **** in your pants". And that is straight to my face. That just inst right.... it is absolutely deplorable, under any circumstance; it has nothing to do with anyone but us and whoever we happen to settle down with. It isnt all of us transgender people that keep bringing up this stuff, we just want a quiet life and to be left alone to be who we are. It has nothing to do with anyone else at all.

 

[ryzno]

Your way of posting requires a ton of benefit of the doubt - often in the face of being demonstrably wrong - but I'm developing a little bit of a ryzno decoder ring.

I'm trying to get better at posting. Thanks for trying to work with me on it. Over 4 years here now. When I joined, I joined for the Drag Racing sections, back then I posted worse than a kid on YouTube. I'm trying to improve and reading what/how y'all post so I can get better.

It sounded like when you said "leave well enough alone" that you would instruct a kid to dress based on how their peers would want them to dress.

I would recommend they wear gender appropriate clothes to avoid being bullied or sent home from school. I would also prepare them for what could happen if they decide to dress that way anyways.

Preparing your kid for bullying is not really preparing them for the world. Or do you live in a world where you might be held down and beaten because you're smaller or dress funny? I don't.

I don't live in that world, but they do. So they need to be prepared for what happens in their world every day. As soon as my son(5) gets on the bus in the morning, he has to fend for himself and deal with his actions for the day. We then go home talk about what happened and I try to prepare him for the next day. Their world might be sheltered but they do their own thing too. My son has been bullied for being timid. I taught him how to fight back and guess what. He came home with a black eye a few times, but the kids leave him alone now.
And if you think about it I am preparing him for our world. If someone hits you, you can try to run away and ignore it or fight back.
Do you think bullying does not exist in "our world"?

 

[Danoff]

People staring, pointing at it, laughing at me and calling me things such as "freak", "he she", "it" and "thing". People going "is that a man or a woman". The problem isnt to do with me (or any other transgender person), it is to do with the fact that human beings like to be asshats to eachother; and berate them for any difference at all. That is the reason why I took tweezers to my facial hair, why I would spend hours (as in all day) plucking each individual hair methodically. Without it I got far less abuse from people, and got correctly gendered far more often.

Ok fair enough. You did it not out of a sense of how you felt you were supposed to be, but out of a sense of what society felt you were supposed to be. But do you think that many people with gender identity issues don't pick at their appearance out of a sense of what they themselves think is wrong? And do we think that gender reassignment should come from a sense of what others expect?

To take this to extreme, ultimately nobody knows whether you have a **** in your pants but you. Do you think that teenagers don't mutilate their **** out of a sense of what they think they're supposed to look like down there rather than out of a sense of what society expects to find? Or any other part of their body?

I don't think that parents should be teaching their children that they were born with the "wrong" gender - or that it was somehow a mistake. Even if you consider it to be a medical deformity, is it a mistake? Is it wrong? If I get cancer tomorrow is it wrong that I got cancer? Was my body a mistake? No, it's me. It's part of me, that tumor is my body behaving the way it was born to behave. That doesn't mean I can't change it, but it's important to accept that there's no stigma to it. It's not a flaw.

I think that is exactly the message that can be conveyed we rush to cosmetic surgery at a young age. In fact, I'd be careful to avoid that message with any kind of medical problem at a young age - regardless of the nature. The notion that a child cannot survive through puberty with a large nose, or small/big boobs, or a mole on their face, without corrective surgery is not correct. They can, or at least they should be able to if they're in the right environment, and it might even be an important experience. I'm not saying that it's impossible to give a child gender reassignment surgery at a young age without sending them a message that their bodies are wrong, but it's an unhealthy message to be recognized and avoided.

I don't live in that world, but they do. So they need to be prepared for what happens in their world every day. As soon as my son(5) gets on the bus in the morning, he has to fend for himself and deal with his actions for the day. We then go home talk about what happened and I try to prepare him for the next day. Their world might be sheltered but they do their own thing too. My son has been bullied for being timid. I taught him how to fight back and guess what. He came home with a black eye a few times, but the kids leave him alone now.
And if you think about it I am preparing him for our world. If someone hits you, you can try to run away and ignore it or fight back.
Do you think bullying does not exist in "our world"?

Physical bullying does not exist in our world. It's not called bullying to beat someone up for being different, it's called assault and battery. Teaching them that they can be assaulted as an adult is, like I said, a fine line to walk.

I understand that kids have to deal with this on a day-to-day basis, but you have to be careful exactly what lessons you're teaching them. The "defend yourself" lesson is not as simple as "fight back". If someone punches you in the school cafeteria - in view of multiple adults - and the other kids are making fun of you for not fighting back, and you're angry, but you're not actually concerned for your well being, the lesson is do not fight back. That'd be raising them to be an adult. Fighting someone for retribution, or to save face, or tit for tat is not a good lesson.

 

[ryzno]

The "defend yourself" lesson is not as simple as "fight back".

In his case I think it was. The kid bullied him to give him, his hot-wheels.

 

[Lizard]

Not a fan of silk?

Not on 9 year olds.
Women wear silk to look sexy usually rather than as normal stuff.

 

[Com Fox]

@ryzno I can remember as far back as 3 years old, and I knew my gender was female then. I am 32 years old in January, I still know my gender is female.

You might but...

I've read 80% eventually switch back