Transgender Thread.

[Imari]

Then they should be fighting a much easier fight - which is that people need to broaden their views about what it means to be a man or a woman, rather than an almost impossible fight - which is that people should call you by whatever gender you choose (at a particular moment).

You think that it's easier to convince people to change their views on what a "man" or a "woman" is than to get them to use a word of your choice?

I don't get it. We have this already with names. You get called whatever you like to be called, unless the people you're around are complete knobswozzlers. On the other hand, getting humans to change their deep seated and often not entirely rational perceptions of gender seems like a nightmare, right up there with convincing people not to be racist. Really, most of the time it's just easier to wait for that generation to die off and carry on with their kids who probably haven't been brought up with the same biases.

If your goal is just to fit in and be accepted, trying to force people to use a particular language is not the easiest or best way. It's harder and creates a confusing inconsistent message.

I'm sorry mate, I'm not seeing "change their opinion on gender" as an easier way than asking people to use language that suits you. And frankly, I find it a lot more aggressive and invasive to be trying to change someone's opinion rather than simply asking people to behave in a way that is polite. You can't change how people are on the inside, they can think whatever they like inside their own heads. But you can ask them to not call you names that make you feel uncomfortable.

That seems totally reasonable, for anyone. Is it not?

Outside of certain medical situations, when would male/female be useful or relevant descriptors if we were simply allowing people to live their lives how they chose, without constraining them with gender preconceptions?

Well, if I were a heterosexual male looking for a female mate, then it might be useful for me to be able to identify those who meet my own criteria for a mate. Fundamentally, the whole male/female thing does have some pretty significant uses in human society.

 

[Danoff]

I don't understand where you're pulling the "outsider" aspect from.

It's encapsulated here:

If it was accepted (ear rings), they'd do something different (gauges).

It's not true that a man that says someone else's daughter is beautiful is a paedophile. You need to be the change.

What change do you want me to be? I don't want to talk that like. I also don't assume that people are pedophiles based on statements like that. I don't know how much more self-consistent I can be.

It's going against the grain, by being ourselves.

Some peoples' identity is tied up in going against the grain. That's why you see people with in-your-face hair styles, tats on their foreheads, and giant stretchy earlobes. It's not the only reason, of course, there are other reasons to do that. One of them is if you hate the way you look, it can be a form of self-mutilation.

You think that it's easier to convince people to change their views on what a "man" or a "woman" is than to get them to use a word of your choice?

Yes. Reason number 1, they don't know your word of choice. So unless you want it tattooed on your forehead, you're already fighting an uphill battle. Reason number 2, you have to do both to get people to use the other word. If they identify you by sight as a man and you tell them "I identify as a woman". You're asking them to do 2 things. First, have a broad perspective of what it means to be a woman, and second, stop using the word they thought was appropriate and use the word you ask them to use. I'm saying stop at thing number 1.

Here's how my scenario plays out.

Person who looks like a man but identifies as a woman is called a man. That person does not take offense because they understand that what it is to be a man is broad and encompasses who they are, how they feel, how they think, etc. Life goes on.

Here's how the current scenario plays out.

Person who looks like a man but identifies as a woman is called a man. That person corrects the person who called them a man and asks them to re-identify them according to the gender of their preference. This requires that the other person change their understanding of who it is appropriate to call a man, and further, involves a request to correct unwanted behavior, and further perpetuates stereotypes about what it is to be a man.

My way is easier and doesn't perpetuate gender stereotypes. Win win.

 

[Imari]

Yes. Reason number 1, they don't know your word of choice. So unless you want it tattooed on your forehead, you're already fighting an uphill battle.

They don't know my name either, until I tell them or they ask. Generally, people just jump in with both feet and assume that the other person will politely correct them if they're wrong. Lord knows how many times I've pronounced some foreign fellow's name wrong and they've simply corrected me. Multiple times if necessary.

Seems to work fine. Notice that they're not correcting my thinking, just my behaviour. Because that's the only thing that affects them.

Reason number 2, you have to do both to get people to use the other word. If they identify you by sight as a man and you tell them "I identify as a woman". You're asking them to do 2 things. First, have a broad perspective of what it means to be a woman, and second, stop using the word they thought was appropriate and use the word you ask them to use.

Why does it take any perspective of any gender to use a different word? It's just a word. If I say "Hey, it'd make me feel more comfortable if you addressed me as though I'm female" that doesn't require any perspective at all. People may be curious, in the same way that they might be curious about why someone whose real name is Muhammad might choose to be called Neville.

But simply using the names and pronouns that someone asks of you doesn't require understanding, it only requires courtesy. There's no need to correct someone's thinking, only their behaviour. They can think what they like.

Person who looks like a man but identifies as a woman is called a man. That person corrects the person who called them a man and asks them to re-identify them according to the gender of their preference.

Why intrude on how someone identifies you at all? Simply tell them how you'd like to be treated, and leave the rest to them. Seems easy. They can continue to think of you as a man who wants to be addressed as a woman, or as a woman, or as whatever they feel like. It's not up to you to tell them what to think of you.

I don't recommend trying to tell other people how to think. It rarely works, and people often take offence. Simply tell them how you'd like them to behave, and leave the thinking up to them. They can justify their response however they like.

 

[Danoff]

They don't know my name either, until I tell them or they ask. Generally, people just jump in with both feet and assume that the other person will politely correct them if they're wrong. Lord knows how many times I've pronounced some foreign fellow's name wrong and they've simply corrected me. Multiple times if necessary.

You assign your name a meaning when you tell them what it is. Surely you understand the difference between asking someone to call you Imari vs. asking them to call you an antelope. Predefined meaning vs. no predefined meaning.

Why does it take any perspective of any gender to use a different word?

Because people think they know what that word means. They're wrong, but they think they know.

It's just a word. If I say "Hey, it'd make me feel more comfortable if you addressed me as though I'm female" that doesn't require any perspective at all. People may be curious, in the same way that they might be curious about why someone whose real name is Muhammad might choose to be called Neville.

That's not how people use the word, which is my point.

I don't recommend trying to tell other people how to think. It rarely works, and people often take offence. Simply tell them how you'd like them to behave, and leave the thinking up to them. They can justify their response however they like.

I'd recommend not even correcting their behavior. Since taking offense or requiring a particular pronoun is an insistence on applying gender stereotypes at some level. Unless you're taking your view above where "him" and "her" have no meaning, in which case you're insisting on one for no reason.

Look, bottom line, there's no way out. No matter how you cut it, telling someone to call you a particular pronoun is a bad idea. It either means something to you, in which case you're reinforcing stereotypes (at the very minimum, inside your own mind), or it means nothing to you, in which case you're asking for something for no reason. It either means something to them, in which case you're asking them to change the way they think about the word (based on your preconceived notions), or it means nothing to them, in which case you shouldn't care which one they use.

Nobody, of any gender, should really care which pronoun is used to address them.

 

[Imari]

You assign your name a meaning when you tell them what it is. Surely you understand the difference between asking someone to call you Imari vs. asking them to call you an antelope. Predefined meaning vs. no predefined meaning.

It's a difference, but hardly a major one. I work with a guy called Kok. No big deal. Was funny for a couple of days, but meh. Just because a word has a meaning, doesn't mean that's all it can be.

They're welcome to refuse to call me an antelope if they wish. It's hardly accurate anyway, I'm an attack antelope.

Because people think they know what that word means. They're wrong, but they think they know.

So? They can be wrong all they like. I'm simply asking them to treat me in a certain way, regardless of whatever baggage they wish to attach to that. Sounds like their problem, not mine.

That's not how people use the word, which is my point.

I still see no impediment to me asking.

It either means something to you, in which case you're reinforcing stereotypes (at the very minimum, inside your own mind)...

So? I'd argue that you're almost certainly an aberration if gender means absolutely nothing to you. By the very nature of the society we live in, you've had certain preconceptions drilled into you since before you were old enough to know what preconceptions were. As an adult, you can challenge those in a rational manner and perhaps you've had success removing them. But I don't think it's much of a reach to say that the vast majority of the population have either been unsuccessful at removing those gender preconceptions or simply haven't tried.

You explained before that you don't call little girls cute for fear of being labelled a paedophile, not because you shouldn't be able to, but simply because that's the world we live in. Even if you have removed your own preconceptions they're simply built into the world we live in. One day maybe that will be different, and it seems to be changing slowly, but next week, or next year, or next decade people are still going to be taking notice of gender.

This is the world we live in. Gender stereotypes are a thing. If it takes explicit correction of that, I don't see the problem. It's simply acknowledging that the world is the way it is, and doing one's best to find a comfortable way through that. One can talk about how the world should be, but that doesn't mean one has to ignore the way the world is.

Nobody, of any gender, should really care which pronoun is used to address them.

They shouldn't, but they do. That is the world in which we live. Where men are viewed as child predators, Muslims are viewed as terrorists, sex workers are viewed as disgusting criminals, and people care which pronoun is used to address them.

You can argue shoulds all day, and I agree with you that that's how it should be. But this is the world we have to live in, and it doesn't get any better by getting huffy about what people should be doing. You urinate with the wang you're given, to paraphrase a wise man. If you happen to be stuck in a world where people do care about pronouns (perhaps one like this world), then maybe you would just act in a way that lets you carry on with your life without undue stress.

 

[Danoff]

It's a difference, but hardly a major one. I work with a guy called Kok. No big deal. Was funny for a couple of days, but meh. Just because a word has a meaning, doesn't mean that's all it can be.

That's true. Don't interpret what I'm saying to mean that it's impossible for someone to redefine a word that they think they know the meaning of. Certainly that's possible. I'm merely pointing out the difference between asking someone to redefine his/her in their mind vs. asking them to call you by your name. It's not the same act.

So? They can be wrong all they like. I'm simply asking them to treat me in a certain way, regardless of whatever baggage they wish to attach to that. Sounds like their problem, not mine.

You can go through life like that for sure. I'm not saying that someone will burst into flames if they try to make the people around them jump through arbitrary hoops on their behalf. It's just not a great idea.

So? I'd argue that you're almost certainly an aberration if gender means absolutely nothing to you.

The beautiful thing about what I'm saying is that it doesn't rely on anyone else.

By the very nature of the society we live in, you've had certain preconceptions drilled into you since before you were old enough to know what preconceptions were. As an adult, you can challenge those in a rational manner and perhaps you've had success removing them. But I don't think it's much of a reach to say that the vast majority of the population have either been unsuccessful at removing those gender preconceptions or simply haven't tried.

...and that's ok. Once you remove your own preconceptions, it doesn't matter what anyone else calls you. It's not an insult to be called a man or a woman. It just isn't. If someone insists on calling me a woman and I find that insulting, that's my problem. Half of the population is female, why should I take offense at being called one? There are women that are more masculine than I am for sure.... why should I be offended at being called a woman when there are more masculine examples than me?

You explained before that you don't call little girls cute for fear of being labelled a paedophile, not because you shouldn't be able to, but simply because that's the world we live in.

That's not really what I explained. I explained that people may think that I'm a pedophile, or likely to be one, if I don't speak in a way that is consistent with what they're used to from other men. I agree that people profile. Everyone does it, because you'd probably not make it very far through life if you refused to profile. "How can I be sure that this rattlesnake will bite me?"

None of that precludes what I'm saying though. It does not require a utopia to work.

Gender stereotypes are a thing. If it takes explicit correction of that, I don't see the problem.

It doesn't correct that to insist that someone call you by one pronoun or another, it reinforces it. If someone is insulted at being called the wrong gender, it's because they're assigning stereotypes to that gender. Gender doesn't mean as much as people seem to think, which is why it's silly to insist on one or the other. It's a social convention more than anything.

But this is the world we have to live in, and it doesn't get any better by getting huffy about what people should be doing.

That's actually my point. Nobody should care what pronoun is used to address them.

If you happen to be stuck in a world where people do care about pronouns (perhaps one like this world), then maybe you would just act in a way that lets you carry on with your life without undue stress.

...by not fighting them over it. If someone wants to call you a man or woman, why does that harm you? Who cares? The scope of either of those terms is so broad that taking offense to one or the other is absolutely silly.

By the way, there is a corollary to this, which is that you shouldn't care which one you apply to someone else. If someone asks me to call them one or the other, I will. Why should I care? What difference does it make to me? As I said above, the terms are so broad that it's silly to get upset about having to use one or the other.

To the person who says "no, I refuse to call you a man", I say... chill out, you're assigning too much importance to that term. However, that person looks exactly the same to me as the person who says "no, I refuse to be called a man". To them I say... chill out, you're assigning too much importance to that term.

 

[ryzno]

If someone insists on calling me a woman and I find that insulting, that's my problem. Half of the population is female, why should I take offense at being called one? There are women that are more masculine than I am for sure.... why should I be offended at being called a woman when there are more masculine examples than me?

What the what?!

 

[Danoff]

What the what?!

Did you have a specific question about that? Shall I take it that you have a lot of personal pride and identity wrapped up in your gender? Something which you had no control over and is not an accomplishment, and is ill-defined.

 

[UKMikey]

Meanwhile in (somewhat old) celebrity news I'm glad that Gotham actor Donal Logue's daughter (or son if you're @Danoff I guess) has turned up safe and sound:

http://variety.com/2017/scene/news/donal-logue-daughter-missing-found-jade-transgender-1202490464/

 

[Dennisch]

Meanwhile in (somewhat old) celebrity news I'm glad that Gotham actor Donal Logue's daughter (or son if you're @Danoff I guess) has turned up safe and sound:

http://variety.com/2017/scene/news/donal-logue-daughter-missing-found-jade-transgender-1202490464/

I completely fail to see why they need to mention that his kid is a transgender.

 

[Danoff]

or son if you're @Danoff I guess

I don't understand this comment.

 

[ryzno]

Half of the population is female, why should I take offense at being called one?

Why would you be happy being called something you don't identify as?
That is one of the biggest subjects in the trans community. One I got yelled at about here.

Something which you had no control over and is not an accomplishment, and is ill-defined.

It appears from this thread we do have control over it... Anyways. My mind gets boggled every time I see this thread.

 

[UKMikey]

I don't understand this comment.

Unless I have misunderstood your earlier posts you are arguing that a child who's born in a male body who believes he's female should be referred to as "he" despite his/her wishes.

 

[Danoff]

Why would you be happy being called something you don't identify as?

How do I know that I identify as a man? How do you know that? What basis do you use for that that isn't a stereotype or cultural norm to say that you identify as a man? I can't defend taking a strong stand on being called a man on any rational grounds. There are women who are more masculine than I am. Yes I have a beard, yes I have a penis, yes I shop at the men's department. None of that disqualifies me from being identified as a woman. So why should I take offense?

It appears from this thread we do have control over it... Anyways.

I think you misunderstand. Performing surgery to change your body does not change your gender. In some cases, people claim that it more accurately reflects a gender they did not choose. I can easily prove this to you. Let's pretend that you were wounded and it required removal of your penis. Do you stop identifying as a man?

Unless I have misunderstood your earlier posts you are arguing that a child who's born in a male body who believes he's female should be referred to as "he" despite his/her wishes.

Please quote me saying that. Here's a quote from my post today that contradicts that:

" That's actually my point. Nobody should care what pronoun is used to address them.
...
If someone asks me to call them one or the other, I will. "

 

[UKMikey]

Please quote me saying that. Here's a quote from my post today that contradicts that:

" That's actually my point. Nobody should care what pronoun is used to address them.
...
If someone asks me to call them one or the other, I will. "

If that's the case then I did misunderstand your position and apologise.

 

[ryzno]

There are women who are more masculine than I am.

These lines are what get me. I know your smart and do space stuff, but I don't get how you rationalize that.
The word games in these arguments are flabbergasting

None of that disqualifies me from being identified as a woman. So why should I take offense?

Yes I have a beard, yes I have a penis,

That disqualifies you from being a woman. A man would take offense to being called a woman. I would take it as a personal insult, like you are calling me a little 🤬 or something. I would take offense if someone referred to my son as a girl, heck he'd take offense.

Now, if you have a beard and a penis and you want me to call you a female, I'll do it to make you happy. You are still a man though.
.
You keep saying people use the word gender wrong, I say it's a word that has been morphed to suit a groups argument.

I don't think you can explain it(whatever you were debating with Imari) to me, so lets agree, to disagree.

 

[Danoff]

These lines are what get me. I know your smart and do space stuff, but I don't get how you rationalize that.

Did you see the man I posted in my first post in this thread:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/transgender-thread.345206/#post-11330819

That "man" has a penis. If that person wants to be called a man, can any woman be offended at being called a man? When "man" includes someone that looks like that in a bikini, someone who is more feminine than many many women, why take offense to being called a man?

Here's a "woman" who is serving in the military:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...mped-pentagon-plan-lift-ban-article-1.2292897

That's someone that some people claim is a woman, who has bigger muscles than I do and fights in the army. I can find you examples who have higher testosterone counts than I do too... and probably bigger beards. Can I honestly claim more "masculinity" than the person above? I'm hard pressed to find a meaningful example of why I'm more of a man than he (which is that person's preferred gender identity) is.

The word games in these arguments are flabbergasting

Not word games, recognition of the broad spectrum of humanity.

That disqualifies you from being a woman.

Doesn't disqualify me from identifying and being identified as a woman. Further, none of those are requirements to actually "be" a man.

A man would take offense to being called a woman.

I don't... guess I'm not a real man. But you said I was earlier.

I would take it as a personal insult, like you are calling me a little 🤬 or something.

Because you subscribe to gender stereotypes.

 

[ryzno]

Never mind, I honestly don't care.

 

[Danoff]

Never mind, I honestly don't care.

That was fast. A moment ago you said you'd be personally insulted at being called a woman. Now you don't care? I mean, I know I'm persuasive but that's a personal best for me.

You not caring is actually my goal in this conversation believe it or not. Job jobbed.

 

[ryzno]

A moment ago you said you'd be personally insulted at being called a woman. Now you don't care?

Seriously?

 

[Danoff]

Seriously?

No, not seriously.

 

[novcze]

Donald Trump bans transgender people from serving in US military due to 'disruption' they would cause ... Donald don't want to have shemales in the army, I can totally see how that can be disruptive ... no offence, just kidding, but surely it is rather complicated topic.

 

[TenEightyOne]

surely it is rather complicated topic.

Not really. Are they capable of doing the job they're employed to do? If yes: hire. If not... there's got to be some good catchphrase...

 

[Danoff]

Fitting that I just posted a transgender person in the US military just a few back. That's who we're saying is not fit to serve their country.

 

[HoseHead]

Here's a "woman" who is serving in the military:

She's having a wardrobe malfunction, I see nip

 

[JKgo]

...Is it just me or the current POTUS is going out of his way to dismantle everything his predecessor did? I know there are complex political reasoning behind this decision, but I've got this nagging suspicion that DJT is "banning" trans from the army not because of the tight finances or seeking conservative American support but to simply get on the nerves of Obama.

Most likely, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Probably. Just my gut feelings fuelled by nothing more than boredom and a thirst for a fun but meaningless watercooler topics. In other words, be at ease, fellas.

 

[CodeRedR51]

...Is it just me or the current POTUS is going out of his way to dismantle everything his predecessor did?

That's all he's done. Has nothing else to show for himself.

 

[Joey D]

...Is it just me or the current POTUS is going out of his way to dismantle everything his predecessor did?

Isn't that what most presidents do that are a different party from their predecessors?

 

[JKgo]

Isn't that what most presidents do that are a different party from their predecessors?

...I hope not. Especially if the policies put forward by the previous regime administration was actually of sound logic, both financially and politically....

That's all he's done. Has nothing else to show for himself.

....Oh, c'mon. That's not true. There's that...uh.... "covfefe" thing. And there's.... uh.... hmm. Well, DJT must've done something.... constructive. I'm about 50% certain of this fact.

 

[Johnnypenso]

That's all he's done. Has nothing else to show for himself.

Supreme Court appointement. Illegal border crossings down more than 50%. Keystone and Dakota Access pipelines given the green light. Drew an actual redline in the sand and bombed Syria after a chemical weapons attack. Dropped a MOAB on ISIS who are all but defeated now. Trade concessions from China in his first meeting with them. Imposed a five year ban on lobbying the gov't by former WH officials and a lifetime ban on lobbying for foreign gov'ts by former WH officials....etc. etc. etc. So yeah, nothing I guess.