Transgender Thread.

[ScottPuss20]

I don't agree with this. I believe the gender debate is being used by a lot of people to scapegoat other people and deny their human rights. If sports were classified by muscle mass then they'd be a lot fairer than they are now with the added benefit of not having to check athletes' genitals in public before competitions.

But as @Eunos_Cosmo said adopting such rules would obliterate something like men's cycling which I do not think is fair.

 

[UKMikey]

But as @Eunos_Cosmo said adopting such rules would obliterate something like men's cycling which I do not think is fair.

Not if they ran gender restricted and open gendered competitions in parallel.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Not if they ran gender restricted and open gendered competitions in parallel.

Now that's an idea.

 

[daan]

If sports were classified by muscle mass then they'd be a lot fairer than they are now with the added benefit of not having to check athletes' genitals in public before competitions.

Ade Akinfenwa and Peter Crouch played exactly the same sport in exactly the same position. How would that work with a muscle mass system?

 

[UKMikey]

Ade Akinfenwa and Peter Crouch played exactly the same sport in exactly the same position. How would that work with a muscle mass system?

There'd be no need to gauge muscle mass since it's a team sport (that has less to do with physical strength of the individual players than their skill at football). It'd apply more to directly competitive athletics events.

 

[Daz555]

If sports were classified by muscle mass then they'd be a lot fairer than they are now with the added benefit of not having to check athletes' genitals in public before competitions.

Male and female muscle does not perform the same per kilo so not sure how that would make anything fairer.

There'd be no need to gauge muscle mass since it's a team sport (that has less to do with physical strength of the individual players than their skill at football). It'd apply more to directly competitive athletics events.

Team sports are just as much about athletic ability as they are about pure skill levels. This is why a bunch of 15yr amateur boys can best world class elite female football players.

 

[Joey D]

I'm not sure how it is in other countries, but many sports in the US have an open division and a women's division. They call the open division "men's" or "boy's" but there's typically not a rule barring women from competing. It's why you occasionally see women playing football. Even at the professional level, I don't believe there are rules in any of our major sports leagues that bar women from playing in the "men's" division. So if a woman had the appropriate skill level, they could absolutely get drafted by an NFL team.

I still don't think biological men who've transitioned should be allowed in the women's division since there's nothing preventing them from being in the "men's" division. And if there is a rule that says "men only", that rule needs to be changed to be open since that would open the door for biological women athletes to compete at the highest level they can as well.

 

[Gingerale]

There'd be no need to gauge muscle mass since it's a team sport (that has less to do with physical strength of the individual players than their skill at football). It'd apply more to directly competitive athletics events.

So it would be ok to let Mbappe join France in the Women World Cup?

 

[Uncreative]

Male and female muscle does not perform the same per kilo so not sure how that would make anything fairer.

Usually transmasc people will gain a lot of muscle on testosterone, and transfem people will lose some on estrogen.

 

[UKMikey]

So it would be ok to let Mbappe join France in the Women World Cup?

Why? Does he identify as a woman?

 

[Gingerale]

Why? Does he identify as a woman?

Its regarding the part 'we divide sport by muscle mass' instead of just you know, gender.

 

[UKMikey]

Its regarding the part 'we divide sport by muscle mass' instead of just you know, gender.

In an open event, not a women's event.

 

[Gingerale]

In an open event, not a women's event.

Oh is it? I thought it was regulated

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3950e57162ea513d/original/ihf3yx6kw3insqt6r0i6-pdf.pdf

But if this is outdated, good for them I'd say. Stuff like muscle mass should not be a factor at all.

 

[UKMikey]

Oh is it? I thought it was regulated

https://digitalhub.fifa.com/m/3950e57162ea513d/original/ihf3yx6kw3insqt6r0i6-pdf.pdf

But if this is outdated, good for them I'd say. Stuff like muscle mass should not be a factor at all.

I wasn't talking about current FIFA rules. In an open championship there'd be more mixed teams to compete with Mbappe and he wouldn't have the field all to himself.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I don't agree with this. I believe the gender debate is being used by a lot of high profile people who'd previously publicly expressed no interest in sports to scapegoat other people and deny their human rights.

If sports were classified by muscle mass then they'd be a lot fairer than they are now with the added benefit of not having to check athletes' genitals in public before competitions.

This is definitely the crux of it. I have a hard time believing all the bleeding heart conservatives that have been so vocal about this issue have ever watched, let alone genuinely cared about women's cycling for instance - it's a bad faith effort to attack transgender identity.

Open and gender restricted is probably the logical way to go, though transitioned females would then definitely be at a disadvantage against men due to deliberately low testosterones. I also don't know how this would play out with gender identity. If you identify as female but you are categorized as open, are we just back at square one?

In the US, most of the gravel cycling events are structured like this:
Men's Pro
Women's Pro
Amateur (typically in different age groups)
Open gender
(Then a bunch of random categories like single speed)

But everyone is racing together. The last race I did had over 1000 participants, but only 3 in open gender. But it's good that it's there. I would actually love to see the Tour De France as a mass participation event with 3 gender categories (instead of the somewhat janky women's race which is too short to feel meaningful) though I'm sure organizing it would be even more of a nightmare than the normal race already is.

I hope to see some experimentation with this. Currently there is no world-tour-level mass participation bike road race (though the biggest gravel races in the US, which are gaining stature, all are). Maybe one of the one-day races that wants to make some waves could try it. Maybe FIFA could do some mixed-gender exhibition games to see how it works out.

 

[Danoff]

I don't agree with this. I believe the gender debate is being used by a lot of high profile people who'd previously publicly expressed no interest in sports to scapegoat other people and deny their human rights.

This is definitely the crux of it. I have a hard time believing all the bleeding heart conservatives that have been so vocal about this issue have ever watched, let alone genuinely cared about women's cycling for instance - it's a bad faith effort to attack transgender identity.

There might be some of that going on, but it's not a necessary assumption. For example I don't care at all about cycling (women's or other) and I still care about whether the rules are fair. People are naturally drawn to discussions of fairness or mistreatment. You can get me to read a story about Taylor Swift (who I do not care about) if it's about whether she's treated fairly by ticketmaster or record labels or whatnot. I don't care much about chess but I'm interested in whether someone had a cheeky cheat device.

 

[UKMikey]

There might be some of that going on, but it's not a necessary assumption. For example I don't care at all about cycling (women's or other) and I still care about whether the rules are fair. People are naturally drawn to discussions of fairness or mistreatment. You can get me to read a story about Taylor Swift (who I do not care about) if it's about whether she's treated fairly by ticketmaster or record labels or whatnot. I don't care much about chess but I'm interested in whether someone had a cheeky cheat device.

I believe intent is everything, and that it's quite an accusation to suggest that transitioned individuals are entering sporting events in order to deliberately cheat. I've nothing against experimenting with the rules of competition in order to give as many athletes a sporting chance as possible when the alternative is to exclude a subset of them from competition.

We can parse or classify the records however we decide in the future so long as those athletes've had the chance to at least make the attempt to compete and set those records and times.

 

[Danoff]

We can parse or classify the records however we decide in the future so long as those athletes've had the chance to at least make the attempt to compete and set those records and times.

This is underselling it a bit. As far as records and standings go, the immediate results of a competition can be crucial for financial outcomes.

 

[UKMikey]

This is underselling it a bit. As far as records and standings go, the immediate results of a competition can be crucial for financial outcomes.

Altering the future eligibility of a sporting outcome for historical accuracy doesn't invalidate any wagers or bets made on it at the time. I think those are two separate issues.

 

[Danoff]

Altering the future eligibility of a sporting outcome for historical accuracy doesn't invalidate any wagers or bets made on it at the time. I think those are two separate issues.

I was talking more specifically about athletes themselves, both in terms of winnings and opportunities for the future.

 

[UKMikey]

deleted

 

[p78]

I think it was in may that World Athletics (WA) banned transgender women from elite female competitions.

 

[Hayden]

Maybe FIFA could do some mixed-gender exhibition games to see how it works out.

As someone who grew up in a country town where we played mixed netball, I’d actually really enjoy watching this. I’m confident that teams with even amounts of men and women could have brilliant games and there’d be room for trans athletes in such an event as well.

I don’t understand why team based, non contact sports don’t embrace this type of open (but even) concept more.

 

[Danoff]

As someone who grew up in a country town where we played mixed netball, I’d actually really enjoy watching this. I’m confident that teams with even amounts of men and women could have brilliant games and there’d be room for trans athletes in such an event as well.

"Even amount of men and women" immediately puts you back into the same situation of categorizing a trans athlete.

 

[Hayden]

"Even amount of men and women" immediately puts you back into the same situation of categorizing a trans athlete.

There needs to be some kind of ratio to ensure both genders are represented. Maybe 4x self associating men and 4x self associating women. Trans athletes would add to the count of the gender they feel best represented by and if someone doesn’t fit gender norms, there is free places left above the minimum counts.

In a large team game, if a particular athlete has a biological advantage by transitioning, any difference will be basically mitigated by the numbers on the pitch.

Still inclusive, still open and still fair.

 

[Danoff]

There needs to be some kind of ratio to ensure both genders are represented. Maybe 4x self associating men and 4x self associating women. Trans athletes would add to the count of the gender they feel best represented by and if someone doesn’t fit gender norms, there is free places left above the minimum counts.

In a large team game, if a particular athlete has a biological advantage by transitioning, any difference will be basically mitigated by the numbers on the pitch.

Still inclusive, still open and still fair.

How do you not see that this doesn't change anything?

A team with 8x people who went through male puberty will dominate a team that has 4x people who went through male puberty and 4x people who went through female puberty in almost any sport. One could possibly design a sport that would nullify this, but that's not the point of this concept.

 

[Danoff]

Tennessee has banned gender affirming care for minors (including hormone therapy, it is not limited to surgery). This ruling has been allowed by a federal court to take effect. This case seems likely headed for the supreme court.

Children cannot be denied a life-saving blood transfusion on the grounds that their parents are Jehovah's Witnesses and that it violates their freedom of religion - at least based on my understanding, please correct me if that's wrong. This Tennessee ban strikes me almost as the opposite - as if JW's managed to get a ban on blood transfusions for minors enforced by the state. The legal argument seems almost the other way around, that children should not be legally able to be denied.

If the child's life is at risk (and that's demonstrable in many of these cases), and the child's doctors believe that this is a necessary treatment to address that risk, it strikes me that Tennessee should have the exact opposite law - that the child's guardians can be forced to allow treatment.

What this law is saying is that even if the child's doctors and parents all agree, the state has prevented them from taking this course of action, which could be a life-saving act. Pretty far out of bed with where it should be.

I may have been too hasty in this characterization. The assumption I made in creating this post is that puberty blocking for a child could be identified as statistically improving that child's chances of achieving emotional health if made in connection with clinicians and parents. I'm not sure that case has been made.

 

[Hayden]

How do you not see that this doesn't change anything?

A team with 8x people who went through male puberty will dominate a team that has 4x people who went through male puberty and 4x people who went through female puberty in almost any sport. One could possibly design a sport that would nullify this, but that's not the point of this concept.

I think you’re missing the point.

In an “exhibition style” environment, where both teams have equal amount of people, that associate with each gender, there would be good competition and entertainment to be had.

You are quite simply not going to have a team of 8x Male at birth athletes vs 4x Male & 4x female at birth. There isn’t enough elite level athletes that have transitioned to warrant this as an issue.

I’m not talking about making the World Cup gender neutral here. I’m talking about a fun, exhibition style soccer game, with equal athletes of both genders and opportunities for people, who are really good at the sport but don’t fit those norms to play too.

 

[Danoff]

I think you’re missing the point.

In an “exhibition style” environment, where both teams have equal amount of people, that associate with each gender, there would be good competition and entertainment to be had.

You are quite simply not going to have a team of 8x Male at birth athletes vs 4x Male & 4x female at birth. There isn’t enough elite level athletes that have transitioned to warrant this as an issue.

I’m not talking about making the World Cup gender neutral here. I’m talking about a fun, exhibition style soccer game, with equal athletes of both genders and opportunities for people, who are really good at the sport but don’t fit those norms to play too.

I see. I thought this was in regard to competitive sports. For exhibition style, whatever gives a good exhibition obviously.

I don't love the "there aren't enough of them" argument though when it comes to elite level trans athletes. At elite levels, it really only matters if there is one, even for team-based sports. As was being explained in the chess world recently, at the elite level, it doesn't take much to tip a game. For chess, even being handed a single move can sway a game. For team-based sports, having an advantage at a single position can make the difference.

 

[HenrySwanson]

https://www.npr.org/2023/06/30/1185356673/trans-influencer-dylan-mulvaney-bud-light-backlash

"For a company to hire a trans person and then not publicly stand by them is worse, in my opinion, than not hiring a trans person at all. Because it gives customers permission to be as transphobic and hateful as they want,"

And also:

"The controversy prompted AB InBev to end the partnership and remove a number of marketing executives involved in the campaign."

Hardly surprising behaviour, and shows how pathetic these companies and footballers really are with their rainbow flags and messages of support for groups until the backlash actually hits them.