Transgender Thread.

[Daniel]

I suppose I can't tell then.

Go back to the video you posted above with the larger-bodied, purple haired trans women with a deeper voice. I'm going to ask some questions like I did before. Just like before, they're rhetorical. I'm not asking you to answer each and every one, but I would appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the last question that I have bolded.

Why do you think she was not a 'legitimate' trans person?
Was it because she was fat?
Was it because she was older?
Was it because she was balding?
Was it because her voice was low?
Was it because you could easily tell she was assigned male at birth?
What do you think would make her a 'legitimate' trans person in your eyes?

 

[ScottPuss20]

Go back to the video you posted above with the larger-bodied, purple haired trans women with a deeper voice. I'm going to ask some questions like I did before. Just like before, they're rhetorical. I'm not asking you to answer each and every one, but I would appreciate you sharing your thoughts on the last question that I have bolded.

Why do you think she was not a 'legitimate' trans person?
Was it because she was fat?

No

Was it because she was older?

No

Was it because she was balding?

No

Was it because her voice was low?

Yes

Was it because you could easily tell she was assigned male at birth?

Yes

What do you think would make her a 'legitimate' trans person in your eyes?

Someone with breasts. Wait, that would mean that women who had them removed due to cancer aren't women. ****.

 

[Daniel]

Someone with breasts. Wait, that would mean that women who had them removed due to cancer aren't women. ****.

Do you think that's fair for someone who feels the exact same way but can't afford breast implants or estrogen for home-grown breasts?

What about a cis man (i.e. someone assigned male at birth and believes himself to be a man) who has gynaecomastia? He has breasts?

What do you think is needed for someone -- who genuinely wants to be a woman but just happened to be born a man?

 

[TexRex]

Yeah and?

It's idiotic, moronic, and/or imbecilic. It also ignores biological reality.

Very special indeed.

Yep.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Do you think that's fair for someone who feels the exact same way but can't afford breast implants or estrogen for home-grown breasts?

No.

What about a cis man (i.e. someone assigned male at birth and believes himself to be a man) who has gynaecomastia? He has breasts?

Yeah that's where my reasoning falls flat.

What do you think is needed for someone -- who genuinely wants to be a woman but just happened to be born a man?

I don't even know anymore.

 

[Daniel]

No.

Yeah that's where my reasoning falls flat.

I don't even know anymore.

Right, so taking those thoughts into consideration, do you think it's possible that she is still a legitimate woman (I'm not using Matt Walsh's definition on account of the fact he doesn't even bring gender into the question):

• happens to be transgender
• didn't realise until she was older
• might not be able to afford surgeries?

 

[ScottPuss20]

Right, so taking those thoughts into consideration, do you think it's possible that she is still a legitimate woman (I'm not using Matt Walsh's definition on account of the fact he doesn't even bring gender into the question):

• happens to be transgender
• didn't realise until she was older
• might not be able to afford surgeries?

I'm never going to be fully convinced of it but if that's what they want, that's what they should get. I don't get to decide based on my views, which I now realise has a tonne of holes in it.

 

[novcze]

Actually, it's not.

"Sex change" surgery is "gender-affirming", because it changes the presentation of the body from the sex that doesn't match the gender to the one that does. It "affirms" the gender.

Yes, that’s the correct terminology—'sex change surgery.' Gender is affirmed by aligning it with the individual’s sex.

Then how do you define 'sex'?

For me it's primary sex characteristics. Male primary sex characteristics are the penis, the scrotum and the ability to ejaculate when matured. Female primary sex characteristics are the vulva, vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and the ability to give birth and menstruate when matured.

The reason I ask is because you imply here that sex seems to be based on biological reality, but you later agree that it can be changed via legal means.

Not what I wrote and wrong context. People can do whatever they want without conforming to expectations associated with their sex, except where biological reality is a limiting factor—for example, a male/man cannot bear a child.
Legal sex change is different because, even if you are legally female after sex change surgery, you still cannot bear a child.

 

[Daniel]

Yes, that’s the correct terminology—'sex change surgery.' Gender is affirmed by aligning it with the individual’s sex.

For me it's primary sex characteristics. Male primary sex characteristics are the penis, the scrotum and the ability to ejaculate when matured. Female primary sex characteristics are the vulva, vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and the ability to give birth and menstruate when matured.

Not what I wrote and wrong context. People can do whatever they want without conforming to expectations associated with their sex, except where biological reality is a limiting factor—for example, a male/man cannot bear a child.
Legal sex change is different because, even if you are legally female after sex change surgery, you still cannot bear a child.

When you say 'gender is affirmed' in which case -- how do you define gender?

 

[Scaff]

I have a problem with people ignoring biological truth

Yet you have repeatedly failed to explain what it is, it's almost as if you are claiming a truth you don't understand.

This is irrelevant.

Nope.

 

[novcze]

When you say 'gender is affirmed' in which case -- how do you define gender?

Where I live, a woman is an adult human of the female sex, and a man is an adult human of the male sex.

 

[Exorcet]

In yours definitions, we have gender linked with biological sex, as I wrote.

What gender roles? I do what needs to be done, i.e., live, and I don’t ask if it fits the expectations.

Going back to the start you claimed that some countries don't recognize gender and that the concept of gender is mostly limited to the English speaking world. You then later went on to say that expectations for males and females are common. I took common to mean global, and not limited to the English speaking world. This is what prompted me to ask if that was if those expectations were a manifestation of gender, which is a social construct.

Because a fat slob that sounds like a man with long purple hair should not be allowed into a female toilet. Present yourself as a woman, fine, but don't kid yourself into thinking you actually are on a biological level if you have a pee pee.

Do you have separate toilets in your home for men and women? I imagine that most bathrooms in the world are unisex and this doesn't seem to cause any problem.

 

[novcze]

Going back to the start you claimed that some countries don't recognize gender and that the concept of gender is mostly limited to the English speaking world.

which is true, if we talk about how gender is now perceived in the English speaking world

You then later went on to say that expectations for males and females are common. I took common to mean global, and not limited to the English speaking world.

true

This is what prompted me to ask if that was if those expectations were a manifestation of gender, which is a social construct.

Expectations are just that—expectations.

If 'man' and 'woman' are defined by gender roles for you, for me, they mean an adult male or female (or, in another context, husband or wife).

By the way, is there enough agreement in the English-speaking world on what gender is to call it a social construct? Or is it more accurate to call it an academic construct?

 

[Exorcet]

which is true, if we talk about how gender is now perceived in the English speaking world

...

true

Then what is this distinction being made between the English world and non English world? Expectations would be part of the idea of gender, so I'm not seeing any real differences here.

Expectations are just that—expectations.

They can also easily fall under the umbrella of gender.

If 'man' and 'woman' are defined by gender roles for you, for me, they mean an adult male or female (or, in another context, husband or wife).

The understanding of gender has a scope beyond you and me. Gender roles emerge on a cultural level. No matter what I think or what you think, other people may have their own ideas, and this is a big part of why research into gender is important. I'm perfectly fine with letting people do whatever they want, but that doesn't prevent other people from holding restrictive viewpoints consciously or subconsciously. If expectations are common globally, then gender would seem to be as well.

By the way, is there enough agreement in the English-speaking world on what gender is to call it a social construct? Or is it more accurate to call it an academic construct?

Enough to make communication of the idea easy enough I suppose.

 

[Daniel]

Where I live, a woman is an adult human of the female sex, and a man is an adult human of the male sex.

Yes, that’s the correct terminology—'sex change surgery.' Gender is affirmed by aligning it with the individual’s sex.

For me it's primary sex characteristics. Male primary sex characteristics are the penis, the scrotum and the ability to ejaculate when matured. Female primary sex characteristics are the vulva, vagina, uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and the ability to give birth and menstruate when matured.

Why do you then call it a sex change surgery when in fact, it doesn't change all of those characteristics?

No surgery on this earth will add a uterus, fallopian tubes, cervix, and the ability to menstruate. No surgery performed upon someone AFAB will add testes with the ability to produce sperm.

If gender is based on sex, which is based on primary characteristics according to you, then what about an individual who has lost their sexual organs to disease, or a condition that meant they never grew in properly in the first place? Are they a man? Or are they a woman?