Tuning Garage Links & FITT Physics Discussions

[donpost]

Just found an old link to a really good introduction to weight transfer and the basics of tuning. Enjoy!

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_weightxfr

 

[JackWilson]

I'm trying to find out more about brake lift-off oversteer but can't really find anything on it.

At the moment I'm experiencing it a lot with the Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71. I have it maxed out at 500pp on sports hards.

How would you go about tuning it out or at least toning it down to make it a lot safer ride?

 

[donpost]

The number 1 tool for adjusting BLO is the deceleration setting on the diff.

Setting it at 5 will give you the most BLO. Increasing the setting will reduce the amount of BLO you get.

Best thing to do is set it at 60 and see if you still get too much BLO. If you don't, slowly decrease the setting until you reach a point where you are getting just the right amount of BLO for your driving style. I usually end up somewhere in the region of 5 - 25.

If setting deceleration to 60 doesn't fix it, then you might think about changing brake balance, ballast position, or spring balance.

 

[JackWilson]

The number 1 tool for adjusting BLO is the deceleration setting on the diff.

Setting it at 5 will give you the most BLO. Increasing the setting will reduce the amount of BLO you get.

Best thing to do is set it at 60 and see if you still get too much BLO. If you don't, slowly decrease the setting until you reach a point where you are getting just the right amount of BLO for your driving style. I usually end up somewhere in the region of 5 - 25.

If setting deceleration to 60 doesn't fix it, then you might think about changing brake balance, ballast position, or spring balance.

Yeah I managed to get rid of it by decreasing the rear brake balance to around 3, 6 up front and also bringing decel sensitivity to around 15-20.

 

[iainoflo85]

The number 1 tool for adjusting BLO is the deceleration setting on the diff.

Setting it at 5 will give you the most BLO. Increasing the setting will reduce the amount of BLO you get.

Best thing to do is set it at 60 and see if you still get too much BLO. If you don't, slowly decrease the setting until you reach a point where you are getting just the right amount of BLO for your driving style. I usually end up somewhere in the region of 5 - 25.

If setting deceleration to 60 doesn't fix it, then you might think about changing brake balance, ballast position, or spring balance.

Thank you for this. On some cars it's really annoying and didn't know how to fix it outside of brake bias.

👍

 

[Pete05]

The number 1 tool for adjusting BLO is the deceleration setting on the diff.

Setting it at 5 will give you the most BLO. Increasing the setting will reduce the amount of BLO you get.

Best thing to do is set it at 60 and see if you still get too much BLO. If you don't, slowly decrease the setting until you reach a point where you are getting just the right amount of BLO for your driving style. I usually end up somewhere in the region of 5 - 25.

If setting deceleration to 60 doesn't fix it, then you might think about changing brake balance, ballast position, or spring balance.

How do you get a FF to really rotate on the front? I love how lift off rotation works to get a FF lined up for a straight drive off the exit of a corner whenever this is possible. Hairpins for one example, a corner with a tightening radius towards the apex is another.

 

[SDsnakebutt]

Just found an old link to a really good introduction to weight transfer and the basics of tuning. Enjoy!

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_handling/handling_weightxfr

Good info! Nice find, thank you for sharing 👍

 

[praiano63]

I´ve posted this already in my garage but i think this is a better place for this. So here it is.

____________________________________________________________________________


I did some test with clutch & flywheels Standard / double / triple
I´ve used low and medium and high power cars
Each categorie with cars power HP +-= Ft-lb torque and HP > Ft-lb torque

I´ve proceeded like this:
-Take a slope with a reference starting point at the down part and another one at the upper part.
I did this on Mount panorama reverse up the hill of the last downhill and on the final nordschleife straight ,starting down the last slope till the bilstein bridge as a reference.

-You have to perform a standing start full gas with auto transmission till the last reference point and check your speed at the pass.

My results are the same for all the cars.

Standard clutch = speed X
Double clucth = speed X + 1%
Triple clutch = speed X + 1%

Carbon drive shaft = X speed + 1%

So you will have a gain of speed of 1% with any double or triple clutch for any car any power any torque. (Perhaps some exceptions, i´ve tested only 6 representatives cars selected by range of power and Power x Torque ratio.)

More 1% gain of speed if you use a carbon drive shaft. Carbon drive shaft + double or triple clutch = speed X + 2%

This is my experience about this clutch question.

 

[DolHaus]

I´ve posted this already in my garage but i think this is a better place for this. So here it is.

____________________________________________________________________________


I did some test with clutch & flywheels Standard / double / triple
I´ve used low and medium and high power cars
Each categorie with cars power HP +-= Ft-lb torque and HP > Ft-lb torque

I´ve proceeded like this:
-Take a slope with a reference starting point at the down part and another one at the upper part.
I did this on Mount panorama reverse up the hill of the last downhill and on the final nordschleife straight ,starting down the last slope till the bilstein bridge as a reference.

-You have to perform a standing start full gas with auto transmission till the last reference point and check your speed at the pass.

My results are the same for all the cars.

Standard clutch = speed X
Double clucth = speed X + 1%
Triple clutch = speed X + 1%

Carbon drive shaft = X speed + 1%

So you will have a gain of speed of 1% with any double or triple clutch for any car any power any torque. (Perhaps some exceptions, i´ve tested only 6 representatives cars selected by range of power and Power x Torque ratio.)

More 1% gain of speed if you use a carbon drive shaft. Carbon drive shaft + double or triple clutch = speed X + 2%

This is my experience about this clutch question.

It says in the game description that a Triple Plate clutch is more likely to lose RPM when changing gears going up a hill than the Twin Plate, did you notice this at all when testing?
I always choose the twin plate for this reason as I've never seen an advantage when using the triple plate.

I'm trying to find out more about brake lift-off oversteer but can't really find anything on it.

At the moment I'm experiencing it a lot with the Ferrari Dino 246 GT '71. I have it maxed out at 500pp on sports hards.

How would you go about tuning it out or at least toning it down to make it a lot safer ride?

I've noticed that you get some odd characteristics if the settings in the diff are too far apart, the Initial seems to be a big contributor to this.
Lets say you are braking hard into a corner (using an FR set at 8/20/40) and the diff is doing a good job of keeping the rear wheels in check, you then reach the end of the braking phase and go into neutral (no brake/throttle) to turn in. If the Initial and the Decel sensitivity are too far apart numerically then the drive wheels will twitch as the diff changes functions (Decel -> Initial) destabilising the drive wheels and leading to unwanted rotation and/or loss of traction. If you were to raise the Initial and lower the Decel then you would decrease the difference between functions and make the whole process smoother and less peaky which in turn makes the car less likely to do something unexpected.

 

[praiano63]

It says in the game description that a Triple Plate clutch is more likely to lose RPM when changing gears going up a hill than the Twin Plate, did you notice this at all when testing?
I always choose the twin plate for this reason as I've never seen an advantage when using the triple plate.

Ther is absolutly no difference betwen double and triple clutch. This is what i´ve deducted after my test .

 

[GTP_CargoRatt]

Ther is absolutly no difference betwen double and triple clutch. This is what i´ve deducted after my test .

Thank you for confirming this Praiano...I've said this from the beginning. No one wants to listen to the "little guy" so I'm glad to have a high profile tuner like yourself back my words up. 👍

 

[praiano63]

Thank you for confirming this Praiano...I've said this from the beginning. No one wants to listen to the "little guy" so I'm glad to have a high profile tuner like yourself back my words up. 👍

No problems, don´t need to be a good or bad fake tuner of fake cars to make an experience like this.
I don´t have any problems if other people are convicted or not. If i have a doubt and if i can imagine a confiable way to check it, then i do this for me, just to satisfy my curiosity.
I´ll share my results and it´ll be up to anybody to trust it or not. Since i explain the way i did , this person can repeat the experience too.
Waiting for your ghost line at Mount Panorama. Running after Johnnypenso for the moment.... the guy is fast . Good combo with the GTR.
Have a good day.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Waiting for your ghost line at Mount Panorama. Running after Johnnypenso for the moment.... the guy is fast . Good combo with the GTR.
Have a good day.

Haha, just trying to stay ahead of you Unfortunately I'm getting the sound cutting out now at this track during the Academy TT the last couple of sessions, so I might be done when I just got started

 

[brian wolf]

I think this is the right thread for this!
@Lionheart2113
I agree with you about your tyre heating up theory. Although I believe it manifests itself differently according to driving style. The screenshots you uploaded showed a gradual decrease in lap times. Which, I think shows a smooth driving style? So the tyres will gradually warm up and give their best grip after a few laps. I, on the other hand, am far from smooth and not very kind to the tyres. And found that in the dry once I`d learnt the tune then the best times would come from restarting, giving it the full beans and the second lap would probably be about as good as it got. In the wet I found that it took a few more laps. Although that could be down to it being more difficult to be consistant in the wet? Any thoughts?

 

[Lionheart2113]

I think this is the right thread for this!
@Lionheart2113
I agree with you about your tyre heating up theory. Although I believe it manifests itself differently according to driving style. The screenshots you uploaded showed a gradual decrease in lap times. Which, I think shows a smooth driving style? So the tyres will gradually warm up and give their best grip after a few laps. I, on the other hand, am far from smooth and not very kind to the tyres. And found that in the dry once I`d learnt the tune then the best times would come from restarting, giving it the full beans and the second lap would probably be about as good as it got. In the wet I found that it took a few more laps. Although that could be down to it being more difficult to be consistant in the wet? Any thoughts?

The more laps I do at tracks I know, I can still see an improvement over time(only I'm cars that have slight understeer), but when running the first half of the street racers at Autumn Ring, I didn't notice it as much. I put that down different lines that I took from one lap to another. I was not very consistent in those tests because it's not a track on my tuning list. When you did your first time trial lap...were your tires lighting up all over the track due to your style? If so, could that mean that they are heating up quicker and you'd be at "max grip" sooner? Another thing I noticed is that my tires still showed the #10 next to them when I hit what I would call the best lap(by feel)

 

[brian wolf]

The more laps I do at tracks I know, I can still see an improvement over time(only I'm cars that have slight understeer), but when running the first half of the street racers at Autumn Ring, I didn't notice it as much. I put that down different lines that I took from one lap to another. I was not very consistent in those tests because it's not a track on my tuning list. When you did your first time trial lap...were your tires lighting up all over the track due to your style? If so, could that mean that they are heating up quicker and you'd be at "max grip" sooner? Another thing I noticed is that my tires still showed the #10 next to them when I hit what I would call the best lap(by feel)

On the first lap I like to brake early for the first couple of corners to see how the brakes feel then I just go banzai to see what the chassis will take! Tyres lighting up all over the track. I like to test how the tune responds to trail breaking, brake and throttle lift-off and work out what gears I need to be in. This might take 3 laps or 10 or more depending on the tune. Then I`d restart and its banzai straight off, lighting up the tyres all over the track! So, I probably am putting heat in to the tyres quicker.
With tyre wear not activated they will stay at #10 but the blue indicators definitely change colour to indicate tyre temp. With some of the street racers the rear tyres went darker blue to indicate they cooled down. And some of the front tyres went very light blue to indicate heating up. These light blue tyres went red very easily. My theory is that if you cook the tyres and they go red then they probably lose a bit of grip, even with tyre wear off.

 

[randyrockstiff]

is their any garages takin on tuners ? or would i have to set up my own one ?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

is their any garages takin on tuners ? or would i have to set up my own one ?

IF!!! no one responds and asked you to join them, feel free to start your own as several others have recently. You will also notice several if not more of the garages listed on the first page are no longer active.

 

[Pete05]

IF!!! no one responds and asked you to join them, feel free to start your own as several others have recently. You will also notice several if not more of the garages listed on the first page are no longer active.

The inactive garages would more than likely be in response to PD's indecisiveness on picking a physics model and sticking with it

I've got a collection of over 25 cars I've been working on with another tuner & I was going to open a garage for them but now I'm not so sure.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

The inactive garages would more than likely be in response to PD's indecisiveness on picking a physics model and sticking with it

I've got a collection of over 25 cars I've been working on with another tuner & I was going to open a garage for them but now I'm not so sure.

Many are no longer posting and some have not been on this forum in a while, no one should be afraid to open their own garage. I did, was unsure whether to or not and spent a long time deciding but I did. Some come and go, some are in it for the long haul, either way, do not think 1 more would hurt any one. (If he gets no response from other garages)

 

[Motor City Hami]

is their any garages takin on tuners ? or would i have to set up my own one ?

Sound advice from my friends above. I think if I hadn't already had my garage open with the whole tuning guide thing, I would have asked to joined Clueless Tunes. I cannot think of a more fun group to be associated with. Plus, I think they take in strays. There seem to be a whole team of misfit pets over there.

I would suggest asking to see if they are looking to expand. https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ws-op-updated-20-08-14-inc-guest-spot.291743/

@krenkme @CyKosis1973 @NEWDRIVER2 @XDesperado67 @Onboy123 @ACSR421 @Ronald6

 

[nijalninja]

The inactive garages would more than likely be in response to PD's indecisiveness on picking a physics model and sticking with it

I've got a collection of over 25 cars I've been working on with another tuner & I was going to open a garage for them but now I'm not so sure.

I always wanted to open a garage, but I have a thing where I wont drive a car in a race until it is absolutely perfect. So overall I would have about 5 cars to show off and let people use: Would not be very successful.

 

[randyrockstiff]

I always wanted to open a garage, but I have a thing where I wont drive a car in a race until it is absolutely perfect. So overall I would have about 5 cars to show off and let people use: Would not be very successful.

Why don't you guys try to join an active garage, that's what I did. Just a suggestion


Didn't realise hami already stated that guys

 

[Motor City Hami]

Wasn't sure where to post this article on swaybars, but this felt like one of the best places for this to land.

http://www.turnology.com/features/lateral-grip-what-sway-bars-actually-do-and-why-theyre-important/

 

[DolHaus]

Let's make it this way, I provide car/setup/track due it seems like I'm only one who's wacko enough to bring this up and sees differences on this point.
Actually, you have provided track and car already I have good setup for it what tells what's happening under body.

So you expect to get consistent and usable data from an infamously difficult to drive car on a bumpy and challenging track?

 

[Thorin Cain]

So you expect to get consistent and usable data from an infamously difficult to drive car on a bumpy and challenging track?

If there is anyone I'd trust enough to do that, it'd be him

I've spent enough time on track with him and plenty more time watching practice laps between races ( spying on braking points, turning points etc. ) to know how consistent a driver he is, pretty much regardless of car or track used (Nordschleife included) I'd trust his test data 100% and his feedback as a driver 👍

 

[DolHaus]

If there is anyone I'd trust enough to do that, it'd be him

I've spent enough time on track with him and plenty more time watching practice laps between races ( spying on braking points, turning points etc. ) to know how consistent a driver he is, pretty much regardless of car or track used (Nordschleife included) I'd trust his test data 100% and his feedback as a driver 👍

Single point data is worthless, to prove a theory the test and the results must be repeatable by anyone under any given conditions (within reason).

 

[fordracer]

So you expect to get consistent and usable data from an infamously difficult to drive car on a bumpy and challenging track?

Statement: I know @OdeFinn is a very good driver...on a different plane in a different universe than I.
Question: Is is possiable that his race craft has inproved to the point that he can detect this minute changes?

 

[Thorin Cain]

Single point data is worthless, to prove a theory the test and the results must be repeatable by anyone under any given conditions (within reason).

I agree, the test must be repeatable. But the results, as you know well from just about every other test/experiment ever done on here, varies from person to person. If all of the conditions that were used for the test are apparent, then they can be repeated by anyone who is interested. They may find the same results, they may find something completely different . That would be my only advice to anyone interested in what a test posted on GTP (or anywhere else for that matter.) has to show. Try it if you want the answers, it's the only way to truly know one way or the other

Statement: I know @OdeFinn is a very good driver...on a different plane in a different universe than I.
Question: Is is possiable that his race craft has inproved to the point that he can detect this minute changes?

IMO, yes 👍. But it's more to do with the feedback from the screen and the wheel and how it's interpreted, than his race craft


Edit: Fixing spelling

 

[Lionheart2113]

Well, I'm surprised that a specific air temperature wasn't brought up....even at the same start time, 5°C of difference are worth approximately .15x over the span of 5,000M. That is at SSRX with stock suspension, camber & TOE set to 0 though....

And that test can be repeated by anyone of any age...I used my own son for testing that one....