Two New Wheels come from Logitech - Lets predict!;)

[Saidur_Ali]

I rather see they release an improved gear driven wheel than a belt drive wheel. I think they could do a much better job in cooling so the force feedback doesn't fade and also get rid of the block thing in the brake pedal which ruined the pedals compared to the G27. Finally for high-end I hope they go for a direct drive offering, I think they were looking at such a solution back in 2017 IIRC. They are kind of taking the piss all these years having such a old wheel design while sponsoring so many teams...

 

[Cocomoto]

Logitech going right away for DD wheels whkes no sense at all.

A belt driven wheels, for me, is the right way to go. Making changeable rims and having an ecosystem like TM and Fanatec would be great.

 

[kikie]

They should make a DD wheel with a small motor. The forces of this motor should be enhanced by a gearing system.


Mmmm, oh wait, ................

 

[Krassi]

They should make a DD wheel with a small motor. The forces of this motor should be enhanced by a gearing system.


Mmmm, oh wait, ................

Jeez, are you drunk?

 

[user3392345]

We life in the future now, releasing another outdated gear/beltsystem would be the last wheel in logitechs racing wheel history.

The D29 a beginner/casual version with 4nm holding force and max output 7nm.
28"rim, 3 pedals, h-shifter. 399€
The D29+ a enthusiast version with 7nm holding force and max output 10nm.
30"rim, 3 pedals, h-shifter. 699€

 

[Z Crazy]

As much as I'd love to see a load cell and Direct Drive wheel, they seem to struggle with pricing power to match their target audience. I can't see anything more than a belt driven, 2 Nm motor, potentiometer based pedal setup. I'm not sure, but I too have heard rumors about Sony not requiring a change to the licencing. Not sure if that was specific to a few manufacturers or not, but if it applies to Logitech it will likely mean the launch price will be lower than $399.99. Personally I'm done with them, but for the sake of the people still using them, I hope they do away with the progressive curves on their pedals. In a real car, that saves lives, in a game that is nothing but a nuisance.

 

[super_gt]

2 Nm motor

2Nm wheel is a waste of time and resources.

 

[Z Crazy]

2Nm wheel is a waste of time and resources.

They've used a 2Nm motor for nearly 10 years now, and I don't think they would change that now. Don't look at this as a wish list, this is me looking at the company and their track record and saying this is what I think they will do. I would like to see a better option, I just don't see it materializing.

What I think would be a great option to add... external rotation adjustment on the wheel. Maybe a 3-4 pot switch, Auto, 570, 900, 1080 (assuming they go to a 1080 wheel). This would be really useful as a little insurance against the GT Sport Kart issue on the G29.

 

[asteroulis]

but for the sake of the people still using them, I hope they do away with the progressive curves on their pedals. In a real car, that saves lives, in a game that is nothing but a nuisance.

Then again, I think this is the best thing they did the last 15 years in their wheels. If the curve is calculated using a load cell, then there's no need for a load cell there. It turns position based braking to pressure based. And if you ask any serious sim racer, having pressure based braking is the best ugrade to have when upgrading stock potentiometer pedals..
In sim racing it saves seconds..

 

[Z Crazy]

Then again, I think this is the best thing they did the last 15 years in their wheels. If the curve is calculated using a load cell, then there's no need for a load cell there. It turns position based braking to pressure based. And if you ask any serious sim racer, having pressure based braking is the best ugrade to have when upgrading stock potentiometer pedals..
In sim racing it saves seconds..

I hated it, the moment I felt another non-progressive pedal set it was a noticeable improvement for me. For me... I like the game to give me the exact amount of throttle or brake that I asked for, not a little less or a little more. Never tried the load cell G2x pedal setup so I can't talk about that, but I don't think Logitech set it up to work more like a load cell. I think they set it up to make braking with shoes on easier. I think Thrustmaster's conical bumper setup was better for emulating a load cell.

 

[asteroulis]

Do not get confused. A load cell is a sensor. It measures the pressure you apply. The various mods are trying to replicate the feel of hydraulic brakes.
This feeling (successfully implemented or not is another discussion) is what your brain understands. For it to be translated accordingly in to the game, you need a pressure sensor (usually a load cell) that will give the same data to the game that is going to our brains through our own pressure sensors placed on our feet.
So, a load cell will translate whatever feeling correctly in game, whether you use spring A, spring B, elastomer spring, conical brake mod or whatever.
Now,if logitech has used a load cell at their potentiometer based modded pedal to create a curve translating position to pressure, there is the exact same effect, but only for the specific setup. People that take out the extra spongy thing because they don't like a heavy brake are destroying this correct translation.

Also, the conical brake mod of tm for example, does not have any proper translation. The pressure people apply is not translated as it should in game. It just prevents easy lock up. And it feels nice but it's not near correct.

Hope it wasn't really confusing..

 

[WheelmanSteve]

I still have a G25, and was running it on my PS3 until I got the G29. Super durable, and worked perfectly, 15 years on. My issue with the 29 is the implementation in Gran Turismo- the wheel is brilliant in other games, but honks a__ in GTS. Brake feel could definitely be improved. I'd buy an upgraded pedal set if it was offered. Try to remember that the Logitech wheels offer amazing performance for the price, and that not everyone has a Fantec budget. (And some of us that do would be sleeping in our sim rigs if our significant others found out how much we'd spent...) Call me interested- I'll be watching for any news!

 

[Z Crazy]

Do not get confused. A load cell is a sensor. It measures the pressure you apply. The various mods are trying to replicate the feel of hydraulic brakes.
This feeling (successfully implemented or not is another discussion) is what your brain understands. For it to be translated accordingly in to the game, you need a pressure sensor (usually a load cell) that will give the same data to the game that is going to our brains through our own pressure sensors placed on our feet.
So, a load cell will translate whatever feeling correctly in game, whether you use spring A, spring B, elastomer spring, conical brake mod or whatever.
Now,if logitech has used a load cell at their potentiometer based modded pedal to create a curve translating position to pressure, there is the exact same effect, but only for the specific setup. People that take out the extra spongy thing because they don't like a heavy brake are destroying this correct translation.

Also, the conical brake mod of tm for example, does not have any proper translation. The pressure people apply is not translated as it should in game. It just prevents easy lock up. And it feels nice but it's not near correct.

Hope it wasn't really confusing..

Thanks, but I know what a load cell is and what it does. When you said "...If the curve is calculated using a load cell, then there's no need for a load cell there" it appears you are saying Logitech's use of a progressive curve is to emulate a load cell. If this is what you are saying... I disagree. A progressive curve is effectively a way of softening the system's response to your input right up until it HAS to amplify your response to get back on track to the 100% signal. That means it is effectively a moving goal post. I don't think that is an effective way to model a load cell out of a potentiometer. Actually I think that would be one of the worst ways to do that.

 

[asteroulis]

Dude... I know what a load cell is and does. When you said "...If the curve is calculated using a load cell, then there's no need for a load cell there" it appears you are saying Logitech's use of a progressive curve is to emulate a load cell. If this is what you are saying... I disagree. A progressive curve is effectively a way of softening the system's response to your input right up until it HAS to amplify your response to get back on track to the 100% signal. That means it is effectively a moving goal post. I don't think that is an effective way to model a load cell out of a potentiometer. Actually I think that would be one of the worst ways to do that.

Mmm.. Not exactly what I'm saying but close.
If they decided that this brake mod that they are using is what feels good to them for replicating a hydraulic feel, then the way for it to behave like a hydraulic brake, is to calculate the exact curve for this exact material combination.
Meaning that they should have connected a load cell and the potentiometer at the same time. At any given position, the pot will give a value(axis x) as well as the load cell(axis y) This will give the curve of this specific setup.

So the curve is not trying to mimic anything, it's correcting a value by a sensor with the memory of another sensor. This would be brilliant in order to save money if it would be that more expensive to actually use a load cell. That is, of course, if they used the aforementioned method and not a curve from their mind. (which is much more probable imho)
This does not have to do with the feel though. And unfortunately, if you change the feel, then the curve is not right at all. You'd have to "recalibrate" it..
Unfortunately I am on vacation and cannot make any diagrams to show different curvatures, depending on progressive materials.

Don't get offended here, but I think you're a bit confused and not exactly understanding how a load cell works, because you said that the conical brake replicates a load cell brake. It's not. It's one sided feeling modification, but with no ingame translation. You're confusing feel vs braking force ingame.

I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but I think I covered the subject.

 

[Z Crazy]

Mmm.. Not exactly what I'm saying but close.
If they decided that this brake mod that they are using is what feels good to them for replicating a hydraulic feel, then the way for it to behave like a hydraulic brake, is to calculate the exact curve for this exact material combination.
Meaning that they should have connected a load cell and the potentiometer at the same time. At any given position, the pot will give a value(axis x) as well as the load cell(axis y) This will give the curve of this specific setup.

So the curve is not trying to mimic anything, it's correcting a value by a sensor with the memory of another sensor. This would be brilliant in order to save money if it would be that more expensive to actually use a load cell. That is, of course, if they used the aforementioned method and not a curve from their mind. (which is much more probable imho)
This does not have to do with the feel though. And unfortunately, if you change the feel, then the curve is not right at all. You'd have to "recalibrate" it..
Unfortunately I am on vacation and cannot make any diagrams to show different curvatures, depending on progressive materials.

Don't get offended here, but I think you're a bit confused and not exactly understanding how a load cell works, because you said that the conical brake replicates a load cell brake. It's not. It's one sided feeling modification, but with no ingame translation. You're confusing feel vs braking force ingame.

I would be happy to explain further if you wish, but I think I covered the subject.

Someone is definitely "confused"... but I don't want to hijack this thread for too long so I'll try to keep this succinct. I don't agree with the premise of the above statement regarding why the curve was used and I'm not sure why you continue to equate the curve to a load cell. I simply said I didn't like a curve being applied. If I ask for 50% brake, I want 50% to come out (not 33%, not 40%, etc). That's it.. no comparison to a load cell, no comparison to the conical mod. If you like the pedals making decisions for you, great... I have no issue with that. I personally, don't want my pedals to do anything I don't tell them to.

This appears to be one of those occasions where its best to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[asteroulis]

I'm not really sure how to respond to that. It seems that you have read a lot of things online and that my engineering background doesn't matter here. I will probably make a dedicated thread when I'm back from vacation in order to explain further how sensors work, how they are implemented, and how logitech has a hybrid system in their last line of wheels.
It's not about what I like. It's about how stuff works..

 

[Krassi]

Even if we can accept that the Logitech or any other brand succeed to mimic load cell with some rubber bumpers, software curves etc etc - there is the question - Why you will do all that fake Load Cell exercise instead of using real Load Cell? And invest your potential to invent something to other parts of the wheel. The load cell is not expensive thing to trow resources to just mimic it...
Well I have sugestion to that question...Logitech is targeting the absolute mass general consumer...alot of things that we found stupid and ridicilous are invisible for the mass consumer that walks into the shop and just picking goods... Thats not wrong approach, btw - everyone have place under the sun... Logitech know very well that simracing hoby entusiasts are spoiled with the better TM and Fanatec goods and tons High End expensive stuff!

For the two new wheels - there is high possibility to be another general consumer wheels! I just want to be at least new, not build from old Gs and DFGT leftover parts like the current G29 and G920! Ofcourse theycan go balistic like in the past when they release G25, which was insane setup to that time!
Back in the days they have the Notorious Red Momo, I still keep mine - that was also something unexpected and fancy for the time!

As Steve Jobs says by my memory - there is always a moment in the big companies that the Marketing starts to dictate products - in that moments products are not so good anymore!

 

[asteroulis]

Exactly, a lc is cheap and hall sensors too. Yet they insist on using pots on wheels, pedals, joysticks etc. A single product return because of a pot failure is more than the cost of hundreds quality sensors..
Doesn't even make financial sense..

 

[Z Crazy]

For the two new wheels - there is high possibility to be another high consumer wheels! I just want to be at least new, not build from old Gs and DFGT leftover parts like the current G29 and G920! Of course they can go ballistic like in the past when they release G25, which was insane setup to that time!

I actually liked the G29's layout with the DFGT's rotary encoder and D-pad. Admittedly, the PS4 button layout was a mixed bag, but to me it was acceptable. However, I thought it was a joke to raise the price by $100 after using a bunch of old tech, but I'm sure that was to cover the cost of re-upping the Sony licence.

 

[Krassi]

I actually liked the G29's layout with the DFGT's rotary encoder and D-pad. Admittedly, the PS4 button layout was a mixed bag, but to me it was acceptable. However, I thought it was a joke to raise the price by $100 after using a bunch of old tech, but I'm sure that was to cover the cost of re-upping the Sony licence.

I personal also like the red rotary knob, just dont like the fact that they use leftover parts...like lets build a new wheel from what we have in the storage!

 

[Mr Sausage]

I'm from the days when Logitech had very high quality (for the era) force feedback peripherals. Around 20 years ago, there was a cable-driven Force Feedback joystick (which to this day would still be very good and rather unique) and then their first belt drive Formula Red (as it was known in my country). These were incredibly rugged high end peripherals but I guess Logitech did not find them profitable. I remember the joystick was around $200 AUD and the wheel was $300 AUD. This was in 1999. That wheel really only had one shortcoming relative to the era - the steering wheel shaft bearings. I think there was a third party upgrade kit for it though. It wouldn't cut the mustard now but back then it was the very best you could possibly get.

Fast forward only 18 months and Logitech went the other way. A serious of ridiculously cheap garbage releases that never even lasted more than a month or two before they wore out. The potentiometers were beyond hopeless and the materials used were horrid. It wasn't till the G25 era that Logitech redeemed themselves but in the intervening years I went through a couple of excellent Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback wheels.

I tend to agree with a previous poster that Logitech should probably stick to geared wheels, however they could make a lot of improvements to feel without breaking the budget. The G25 - G29 series skirted around an ideal geared cost effective solution but I don't think it ever quite got there relative to the asking prices. Plus I also think that the current Fanatec CSL / PS4 wheel is a good (or bad, depending on your viewpoint) example of how difficult it is to get a belt drive solution that works well and without compromises at a reasonable price. I've made no secret that I think that particular Fanatec failed to produce a good value product at the CSL / PS4 price point - and that price point was higher than anything Logitech would be aiming at. So far as I am concerned, if you are going for a belt drive, the mechanisms are pricey (think Clubsport 2.5) if you don't want to have too many compromises.

 

[kikie]

I won't accept anything else from Logitech than a DD wheel and a hydraulic brake pedal.


The two new wheels are probably just an upgraded Playstation and an Xbox version.

 

[Mr Sausage]

I won't accept anything else from Logitech than a DD wheel and a hydraulic brake pedal.

 

[PocketZeven]

I predict Logitech wants to get on the E-sports bandwagon. It is going to be very solid and built specifically for e-sports.

 

[Mr Sausage]

I predict Logitech wants to get on the E-sports bandwagon. It is going to be very solid and built specifically for e-sports.

They possibly see themselves being pushed out of the market by Thrustmaster, so I agree (and hope they do). We need Logitech (and I say that even as a Fanatec person).

 

[PocketZeven]

They possibly see themselves being pushed out of the market by Thrustmaster, so I agree (and hope they do). We need Logitech (and I say that even as a Fanatec person).

I agree. More competition will push for more innovation and better prices. Logitech has a great reputation and was the one that popularized FFB wheels in the first place. They dominated the market during the G25/27/ DFGT era.

 

[super_gt]

I had the opportunity to test the T150, T300 and G29 side by side and the G29 has significantly lower friction than the other two wheels which is impressive. Only CSL Elite has a little less friction than G29 from the belt/gear driven wheels. Less friction means more fine details in the FFB and faster wheel rotation(of course it also depends on the torque)
I look forward to seeing what the new two wheels will look like.

 

[andrewhake]

I think a new Logitech wheel that is similar in spec to the CSL Elite could do quite well. I really hope we start seeing load cell brakes come as standard on all pedals soon enough.

 

[Daz555]

I had the opportunity to test the T150, T300 and G29 side by side and the G29 has significantly lower friction than the other two wheels which is impressive. Only CSL Elite has a little less friction than G29 from the belt/gear driven wheels. Less friction means more fine details in the FFB and faster wheel rotation(of course it also depends on the torque)
I look forward to seeing what the new two wheels will look like.

I have done the same and thought the opposite. The G29 is a great wheel but it feels slow and notchy in comparison to the T300 which I feel is relatively smooth and free flowing by comparison. The gear driven clunks of the G29 also result in lost information.

Not that I'm recommending anyone buy a T300. It's so poorly built and awash with reliability problems. Even though I own a thankfully working T300 I always recommend the G29 as a starter wheel to new sim racers on a budget.

 

[super_gt]

I have done the same and thought the opposite. The G29 is a great wheel but it feels slow and notchy in comparison to the T300 which I feel is relatively smooth and free flowing by comparison. The gear driven clunks of the G29 also result in lost.

Not that I'm recommending anyone buy a T300. It's so poorly built and awash with reliability problems. Even though I own a thankfully working T300 I always recommend the G29 as a starter wheel to new sim racers on a budget.

T300 is faster(due to the higher torque) and it is not notchy, but if the friction in the drive mechanism is somehow reduced to the level of the G29 then the T300 will become significantly better, that's what i mean.