Two things that bug me about America today

[Joey D]

Well its not really the country its about the people in it and how they have reacted to the war and everything to do with it.

I've noticed that there have been a lot of, what I like to call, "check out line patriots". The ones that right after Sempter 11th bought flags and shirts with USA written all over them. While its good to patriotic, but shouldn't you just be that way anyways? Not just because something aweful has just happened to your country. I believe you should love your country all the time, not just when its the "fad" too. It really irrated me which leads me into the next subject.

People who say they support the troops but not the war. I'm sorry if you don't support what the troops are doing you just aren't supporting them at all. You have all these "check out lin patriots" again buying these magnetic ribbons to plaster on there car. While sure thats a great thing to do, ask them whether or not if they think the war is good and you'll get your fare share of "no the war is bad". The only reason people say they support the troops and not the war is that they don't want it to become another Veitnam. Where the troops came home and where treated like crap.

Sorry about the rant this has just being bugging me for a very long time.

 

[Solid Fro]

I agree. It's very hard to support the troops yet, not support the war since the troops are doing all the work in the war.

Many of the Democrats were accused of this during the election. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Emohawk]

(I more or less agree on the first point)

People who say they support the troops but not the war. I'm sorry if you don't support what the troops are doing you just aren't supporting them at all.

Could you elaborate a little more on that?
The way I see it, a person may support millitary servicepeople in general but not what their commander in cheif chooses to do with them. Where's the conflict there?
As long as someone believes in the nessesity of maintaining a military force, respecting those who choose to serve their country in that way is (IMO) 'the right thing to do'. This has nothing to do with passing judgement on the wars they're fighting.

The only reason people say they support the troops and not the war is that they don't want it to become another Veitnam. Where the troops came home and where treated like crap.

What's wrong with that? What happened after Vietnam was bad. The troops weren't running the war in Vietnam, there was no reason to lash out at them.
In fact, if you were to go back in time to the Vietnam war and asked any group of soldiers if they supported the war I doubt it would be very hard to find someone that would say "Hell no, get me outta here!"

 

[Joey D]

Ya and even though I'm not over there, I know plenty of my brothers in arms that are. I know how much support means to them.

 

[Joey D]

You'll have a hard time trying to convince me that someone can support the troops and not the war. You can't support a person and not the actions they do. If you truely supported the troops to 100% you would support there actions. By not supporting there action you are only giving them 50% support.

 

[a6m5]

You'll have a hard time trying to convince me that someone can support the troops and not the war. You can't support a person and not the actions they do. If you truely supported the troops to 100% you would support there actions. By not supporting there action you are only giving them 50% support.

I'm supportive of the war against terror, but I think Bush strayed from the most important objective, which is to capture or kill Bin Laden.

I was against the Iraq invasion from the beginning, but none of saw this turning into such an muddy situation, so I don't blame the Bush Administration too much for making this mistake.

For above reasons, I don't support the war in Iraq. At the same time, soldiers who are over there didn't choose to go into Iraq, some didn't even want to go there. Many I know want out of there(Not one I met wanted to stay).

Some people send aid to soldiers, some people honor them in their business, some help out the spouses of the servicemen/women overseas. Not only I don't see anything wrong with that, I think it's great that people are doing those things to support the servicemen/women.

 

[Joey D]

some didn't even want to go there

Ok if you sign up for the military no matter what branch they put it in very large print that you may be sent into a conflict zone and you might die. Its plain and simple. Anyone who joins and doesn't think they will ever have to go to war is sadly mistaken. I mean they make you sign a will type of thing when you enlist. That right there tells you that you could die.

Many I know want out of there

Deserters should be shot, they knew damn well what they were getting into and any solider who didn't signed up for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Ev0]

I completely agree with Blazin's first point. People should be proud of their country all the time, and should not need a horrific tragedy to make them patriotic.

The second point on the other hand, I don't agree with. I firmly support all the service men and women on the ground, as they have chosen to serve their country while risking their lives, and they are fighting for what they believe is right. The reasons for invading Iraq on the other hand, I don't agree with.

If you're going to start a war, make sure your reasons for doing so exist. And also, never, ever underestimate your opponents. The US command clearly was not prepared for the massive insurgent uprising, as there has not been enough manpower on the ground to deal with the insurgents effectively. Although I supported the war at first, despite my belief that the war was being fought for oil (a belief which I still hold onto), at least there would be the pleasant side effects of removing Saddam and improving the lives of the Iraqi people. Well, we've got Saddam, but Iraq is in a worse condition, as the country is very unstable, and ordinary Iraqis have to live in fear of random acts of violence (not to say that Saddam didn't commit random acts of violence too). The country has changed, but not for the better as of right now, and right now it could be anyone's war.

Ok if you sign up for the military no matter what branch they put it in very large print that you may be sent into a conflict zone and you might die. Its plain and simple. Anyone who joins and doesn't think they will ever have to go to war is sadly mistaken. I mean they make you sign a will type of thing when you enlist. That right there tells you that you could die.

Deserters should be shot, they knew damn well what they were getting into and any solider who didn't signed up for all the wrong reasons.

Agreed. When one enlists for military service, you should be prepared to fight for wars you may not agree with. You should be prepared to kill and to possibly die too, no matter what specific occupation you end up getting. And anyone who does want to run away from the military because of these things does need to be shot, just for sheer idiocy.

 

[Squid]

^^ Yea I agree with that. Another thing is people who support the war and if there were a draft they would be the first one out of the country to hide, If i was drafted I wouldnt be thrilled about having to go fight but I would go over there and fight for my country.

 

[a6m5]

Ok if you sign up for the military no matter what branch they put it in very large print that you may be sent into a conflict zone and you might die. Its plain and simple. Anyone who joins and doesn't think they will ever have to go to war is sadly mistaken. I mean they make you sign a will type of thing when you enlist. That right there tells you that you could die.



Deserters should be shot, they knew damn well what they were getting into and any solider who didn't signed up for all the wrong reasons.

No, I agree with you. I'm tired of those people who joined for free education, etc. but when the time comes, they don't want to go. You joined the military, what did you think was going to happen. I agree with you 100% there, I'm just saying, there is nothing wrong with supporting the troops over there, even if you don't agree with the war in Iraq. People serving over there had nothing to do with the Bush Administration's Policies.

I personally met some of those guys, they are not deserters. They are good people serving this country, they just don't like risking their lives for Iraq. One of them almost got killed by an grenade attack, it almost penetrated his armor, hurting him badly. I'm sorry if I made it sound like they were trying to desert whatever they were doing, because they are not.

I just remembered about my coworkers brother, he wanted to stay, except he's in Afghanistan.

 

[a6m5]

^^ Yea I agree with that. Another thing is people who support the war and if there were a draft they would be the first one out of the country to hide, If i was drafted I wouldnt be thrilled about having to go fight but I would go over there and fight for my country.

You are an good American, and I'd be very upset if they drafted an good man like you for the war in Iraq. Nobody should be forced to fight in Iraq, send in only those who are willing and those who are in the military already.

 

[Arwin]

I'm finding a slight flaw in all this. I'm not saying this should be the case for Iraq, but is a military always supposed to do what his commander tells him? If so, there are only a handful of bad guys in WW2, and the times in which the military refused to act against it's own people as recently in the Ukraine, are the greatest moments of shame in history. I agree that soldiers in Iraq are doing their job, but it is in fact a little more complicated than that.

 

[Emohawk]

You'll have a hard time trying to convince me that someone can support the troops and not the war. You can't support a person and not the actions they do. If you truely supported the troops to 100% you would support there actions. By not supporting there action you are only giving them 50% support.

The millitary is not a single person though. The troops don't choose their actions (at least, not on the scale of Operation Iraqi Freedom, which is the bone of contention).

 

[///M-Spec]

I think you can support the troops, but not the war.

Let me frame the issue another way for you, Blazin. Someone you care about does something you don't agree with. It may be something as simple as picking up smoking or something more complex like making a series of bad life choices. Do you stop caring for them?

How you feel about a person or an institution is more than the moral evaluation of a single action or even a series of actions. You can care about this person, but not a particular action he/she is taking.

Any parent can tell you their child may do things they don't support, but they don't stop loving them. My sister is a tree-hugging socialist democrat who is obtaining her master's degree in public policy planning so she can spend her life telling the government how to best squander my tax money in the most ridiculous way possible. But she is still my sister and I still love her.


M

 

[Akina Racer]

I am not an American but Australia also has a few troops in Iraq. I was against the war in the beginning but I completely changed my mind when I saw a certain piece of disturbing footage. The footage showed an angry Iraqi mob yelling protest against the invasion of their Country. The most horrific image was of several Iraqi's bashing the corpses of fallen Coalitian soldiers. Yes, many Iraqi civilians have been innocently killed and they have a right to be angry but to treat the body of a dead soldier in that manner is simply evil. I dont know if I cannot support the war after seeing that.

 

[Akina Racer]

Sorry about this double post...

Anyway, did the film Fahrenheit 9/11 change anyones opinion on the matter?

 

[Danoff]

The ones that right after Sempter 11th bought flags and shirts with USA written all over them. While its good to patriotic, but shouldn't you just be that way anyways? Not just because something aweful has just happened to your country. I believe you should love your country all the time, not just when its the "fad" too. It really irrated me which leads me into the next subject.

You make an assumption that just because people show their patriotism right after a horrific event, means that they weren't patriotic beforehand.

I have no problem with a sudden outpouring of displays of patriotism. If it were on display all the time all year it would mean very little.

 

[Ev0]

Anyway, did the film Fahrenheit 9/11 change anyones opinion on the matter?

Not for me. Although it was interesting seeing Bush's business connections.

 

[Gil]

No, I agree with you. I'm tired of those people who joined for free education, etc. but when the time comes, they don't want to go. You joined the military, what did you think was going to happen. I agree with you 100% there, I'm just saying, there is nothing wrong with supporting the troops over there, even if you don't agree with the war in Iraq. People serving over there had nothing to do with the Bush Administration's Policies.

I personally met some of those guys, they are not deserters. They are good people serving this country, they just don't like risking their lives for Iraq. One of them almost got killed by an grenade attack, it almost penetrated his armor, hurting him badly. I'm sorry if I made it sound like they were trying to desert whatever they were doing, because they are not.

I just remembered about my coworkers brother, he wanted to stay, except he's in Afghanistan.

The military will provide money towards your education. Most of the education you get in the military does not translate to the civilian world too well.
I haven't had to hunt a single submarine, since I left the navy. But Uncle Sam did provide some money, (with the money I had already put into the account) for my college education.

Don't get me wrong. We have a military to defend our nation, and to aid in the defense of our allies.

While there is some political agenda to most anything we do in the middle east, a lot of what the military does is prevent the "defecation from striking the rotating ventilator". It is done to keep the entire world a safer place. Contrary to popular belief this isn't just about oil, it's about preventing nuclear, biological, and chemical threats to us and all the rest of the "infidels" that the hard core Muslim extremists feel bound, by their religious beliefs, to convert or eradicate.

I'm a patriot in my heart and mind. I don't need a damn magnetic ribbon on my car to show that to the world. Stop and talk to me sometime, and you'll know.👍
It's not wrong to put your flags, and ribbons up. In fact, it's kinda nice to know that we still care enough about the state of the world and each other enough to make some sort of gesture that says, "Hey, this whole war thing is kinda tough, but we gotta do what we gotta do. Let's stick together."

 

[Joey D]

Anyway, did the film Fahrenheit 9/11 change anyones opinion on the matter?

What an aweful movie. Moore just plain hates America plain and simple, I know he has rights to his opinion which I let him have. But I can have an opinion about him as well.

Let me frame the issue another way for you, Blazin. Someone you care about does something you don't agree with. It may be something as simple as picking up smoking or something more complex like making a series of bad life choices. Do you stop caring for them?

Actually I have. I had an older brother once...note the had. He got involved into drugs pretty heavy and was always stealing from my parents. One night he got in this big fight with my mom (my dad was out of town on business), he hit my mom pretty hard after she accused him of stealing some money. Which I know he did. But after he hit my mom I remeber just decking him as hard as I poosibly could. He was so stoned he didn't know what happened. He left that night and I haven't seen him since. Ever since then I've hated him, I have no love for that man. So yes I have stopped caring for them.

I know I might have been a little harsh with my words but I firmly believe that to support the troops you need to support their actions. But you are all entitled to your beliefs. No body is right nor wrong.

 

[a6m5]

The military will provide money towards your education. Most of the education you get in the military does not translate to the civilian world too well.
I haven't had to hunt a single submarine, since I left the navy. But Uncle Sam did provide some money, (with the money I had already put into the account) for my college education.

Sorry, Gil. The grants were what I was referring to and I didn't make that clear in my last post.

While there is some political agenda to most anything we do in the middle east, a lot of what the military does is prevent the "defecation from striking the rotating ventilator". It is done to keep the entire world a safer place. Contrary to popular belief this isn't just about oil, it's about preventing nuclear, biological, and chemical threats to us and all the rest of the "infidels" that the hard core Muslim extremists feel bound, by their religious beliefs, to convert or eradicate.

I agree that it wasn't just about the oil, but I believe that was part of it. Saddam Hussein trying to assassinate the George H. W. Bush, I'm sure effected the President's decision. How about the U.S./Israel alliance or Bush/Saudi connection? I think, they all weighed in on the decision to invade Iraq.

P.S. North Korea, unlike Iraq had already tested the rockets, admitted possessing W.M.D., threatened to use them against U.S. and also were willing to sell those W.M.D. to other nations who'd have used them against U.S. and it's allies. Yet, U.S. chose to go after Iraq......

 

[ShobThaBob]

It's very simple. This country sucks, but it has nice education, so I'll get the most out of it as possible.

I don't agree with killing Iraqis and taking over countries, but I do support the troops who are willing to die so I can take advantage of the country.

 

[Solid Fro]

It's very simple. This country sucks, but it has nice education, so I'll get the most out of it as possible.

I don't agree with killing Iraqis and taking over countries, but I do support the troops who are willing to die so I can take advantage of the country.

Oh, the irony.

Do you want a map to the Canadian border, Shob?

 

[ShobThaBob]

Oh, the irony.

Do you want a map to the Canadian border, Shob?

Finding my way north isn't much of a problem. The weather however is. I'll probably end up moving to sydney eventually...but for now, the benefits of the education, living costs, and the weather (oh god do i love houston weather) - outweigh the crappiness of living with some of the snobbiest people in the world, and having religious ideas being passed as laws.

 

[Gil]

Sorry, Gil. The grants were what I was referring to and I didn't make that clear in my last post.



I agree that it wasn't just about the oil, but I believe that was part of it. Saddam Hussein trying to assassinate the George H. W. Bush, I'm sure effected the President's decision. How about the U.S./Israel alliance or Bush/Saudi connection? I think, they all weighed in on the decision to invade Iraq.

P.S. North Korea, unlike Iraq had already tested the rockets, admitted possessing W.M.D., threatened to use them against U.S. and also were willing to sell those W.M.D. to other nations who'd have used them against U.S. and it's allies. Yet, U.S. chose to go after Iraq......

First of all, If I was "W" and I knew that there was a plot to assasinate me by Saddam, He wouldn't have been taken alive, but he would indeed have been "taken".
And I believe that Israel and Saudi Arabia weighed heavily. I imagine that as our allies, they didn't want the threat of Saddam, and his WMD right at their respective "back doors".
AS for Korea, we already have a strong presence in that country. It isn't talked about as much, but living amongst lots of American military, I hear a lot about Korea, that the American media never talks about. And as the "war", it is being raged in Iraq, that's what the news is going to talk about.
.

 

[///M-Spec]

Actually I have. I had an older brother once...note the had. He got involved into drugs pretty heavy and was always stealing from my parents. One night he got in this big fight with my mom (my dad was out of town on business), he hit my mom pretty hard after she accused him of stealing some money. Which I know he did. But after he hit my mom I remeber just decking him as hard as I poosibly could. He was so stoned he didn't know what happened. He left that night and I haven't seen him since. Ever since then I've hated him, I have no love for that man. So yes I have stopped caring for them.

I know I might have been a little harsh with my words but I firmly believe that to support the troops you need to support their actions. But you are all entitled to your beliefs. No body is right nor wrong.

That is a sad story to hear, Blazin. But that's an extreme case. Anyone who "supports the troops, but not the war" would probably stop supporting the troops if they came home and decked mom after stealing from her, wouldn't they?

People who support the troops may do so because they respect the sacrifice. Or maybe they respect that each one is doing what he/she thinks is the best thing for the country, even if they don't agree with their choices about what that actually constitutes. Also don't forget that many people support action in Afganistan, but not Iraq. Soldiers cannot choose where they may be deployed to, so it makes sense to them simply to support them regardless of where they are sent.


M

 

[Joey D]

Well I don't really think argueing about this will do much good, I was just merely stating how I feel. I know many will disagree with me.

But the thing I don't understand is why people don't support actions to remove a tyrannical dictator who killed thousands of his own people. Not to mention he was a huge threat to the Middle East and its stability. Sure we have not found nuclear warheads laying about on the country side but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Who's to say that Saddam didn't move them, I mean we gave him ample warning we were coming in. But I seem to think Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction himself. By removing him, its like uncovering and destroying a weapons cache.

Some say why haven't we found Osama bin Laden yet? Well he is one of the most wanted men in the world and he is very elusive. He wouldn't make it easy for someone to just find him, plus with as many body doubles as he has, it just adds to the complications. Will we ever catch him? Yes I believe we will catch him by the end of the year and I don't think it will be alive.

Why does the world have to be the world police? Well would any other country step in? No and I know many countries like Iraq look to America for help. I mean we have the strongest and most technologically advanced military in the world. I think its kind of out moral duty to help those who can't help themselves. I mean the Iraqis would just have been killed for years if no one stopped it. I think the first Bush and Clinton should have done something about it, but no H W Bush just sat on his ass after we save Kuwait. Clinton threw some Tomahawks at camps, but never did anything. At least Bush did something.

 

[a6m5]

Well I don't really think argueing about this will do much good, I was just merely stating how I feel. I know many will disagree with me.

But the thing I don't understand is why people don't support actions to remove a tyrannical dictator who killed thousands of his own people. Not to mention he was a huge threat to the Middle East and its stability. Sure we have not found nuclear warheads laying about on the country side but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Who's to say that Saddam didn't move them, I mean we gave him ample warning we were coming in. But I seem to think Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction himself. By removing him, its like uncovering and destroying a weapons cache.

Some say why haven't we found Osama bin Laden yet? Well he is one of the most wanted men in the world and he is very elusive. He wouldn't make it easy for someone to just find him, plus with as many body doubles as he has, it just adds to the complications. Will we ever catch him? Yes I believe we will catch him by the end of the year and I don't think it will be alive.

Why does the world have to be the world police? Well would any other country step in? No and I know many countries like Iraq look to America for help. I mean we have the strongest and most technologically advanced military in the world. I think its kind of out moral duty to help those who can't help themselves. I mean the Iraqis would just have been killed for years if no one stopped it. I think the first Bush and Clinton should have done something about it, but no H W Bush just sat on his ass after we save Kuwait. Clinton threw some Tomahawks at camps, but never did anything. At least Bush did something.

I understand your frustration, but you've got to understand that the U.S. didn't go after Saddam Hussein just because he was a bad guy. It is not as simple as that. If the U.S. went after all the mass murdering dictators and warlords out there, U.S. will end up invading so many countries, all over the world. There are many suspected agenda connected with this war and chances are really good that certain people were going to make a lot of money from this war. This may sound evil, but all the countries do this, including countries like France, who tried to stop the invasion of Iraq for it's own business reasons(again, my opinion here).

P.S. Yes, I agree with you that Clinton could have taken care of many of the problems that faces U.S. today, but he was sooo busy collecting campaign money from China. I'm not so sure about H. W. Bush though. The Gulf War was an success, but at the time, I felt the same way you did. Today, I watch the Iraq stuff on the T.V. and think, hey, maybe he did handle the Iraq situation better than the way Junior's handling it.

 

[Ev0]

But the thing I don't understand is why people don't support actions to remove a tyrannical dictator who killed thousands of his own people. Not to mention he was a huge threat to the Middle East and its stability. Sure we have not found nuclear warheads laying about on the country side but that doesn't mean they aren't there. Who's to say that Saddam didn't move them, I mean we gave him ample warning we were coming in. But I seem to think Saddam was a weapon of mass destruction himself. By removing him, its like uncovering and destroying a weapons cache.

I don't disagree with the war on the level of removing Saddam Hussein from power. Anyone who disagrees with the war for that reason should have spent a day or two in an Iraqi prison to see why their opinion is wrong.

Although, I do disagree with the war because of the US leaders who not only could not come up with a solid motive for the war, but mainly for starting a war while they were ill-prepared for it. Unless your nation is under an immediate threat (Which the US was not under as far as Iraq is concerned), you should never, ever go to war without not only preparing your forces adequately, but also without properly considering the political implications of starting a war. The US government did not properly prepare their forces, and they did not properly consider the political implications of invading Iraq. Very bad move, hopefully America can recover from this, whether it be by succesfully completing the Iraq war (A tall order indeed), or by other actions.

 

[Solid Fro]

Although, I do disagree with the war because of the US leaders who not only could not come up with a solid motive for the war

UN resolution 1441.

but mainly for starting a war while they were ill-prepared for it. Unless your nation is under an immediate threat (Which the US was not under as far as Iraq is concerned), you should never, ever go to war without not only preparing your forces adequately, but also without properly considering the political implications of starting a war. The US government did not properly prepare their forces, and they did not properly consider the political implications of invading Iraq. Very bad move, hopefully America can recover from this, whether it be by succesfully completing the Iraq war (A tall order indeed), or by other actions.

Name one US commander in Iraq who did not receive their requests for anything? (more troops, supplies, etc.) You say we (the US) were "ill-prepared", how so? I don't see how the best fighting force in the world is "ill-prepared" for anything. Ask BlazinXtreme, he knows.