Understanding the GTP consensus on how Camber is Broken

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Jack you have about 75 posts about this. Maybe you should make up a suspension guide and we can all go over your theories about how your suspension thoughts are relavent to a video game. If not I'm sure I can ask Hami or Praiano how they make their cars run next time I talk to them. They seem to have a pretty good handle on setting up a car.
 
Read the OP Mr Motor fake Racer

I got your X-Bow and it doent worry me at all, actually not much competition, BUT thats going to come after I get finished with the Busted understanding GTP Has on Camber...
 
Hami you have no idea what you are talking about. LOL. Just kidding.

I know what you mean. I am doing it all wrong. I have been posting every tune that I drive out in the public forum and welcome positive or negative feedback. Look in my garage right now and you will see a fairly negative review of one of my tunes. What did I do? Ask the poster to PM me his tune so that we could talk about the differences and maybe both learn something.

Based on this thread (and the other two just like it) I should just call all of you stupid for not enjoying my tunes in the proper way.
 
I will go into depth on my Camber theories in a Thread of its own…. It’s in the works soon to come, with MORE of my Take on various aspects of GT6 tuning…

I will explain my technique in its own thread but here are some pictures to show the range of Camber I look in to find where camber works best for any given corner

I look for where inside the range of Pos camb on the inside to neg camb on the inside she feels best







To help with this I find the center point

 
I just got my hands on your tune, I think I will bash it a bit first ;)

Damp and ARB settings clearly show you set the spring rate too high for dams and ARB to be any good except at low levels, you are not getting the most out of the car for certain. BUT That is the broken tuning style often used on GTP.

Ill tear it appart after driving it though, the brake setting is another indicator your not getting as much from this car as you should be. Dont see you making any laps times with it for me to go after with my own, any top speed it can hold in a corner you want me to beat?? Pic some and Ill get it done. Now its the flip, me driving your stuff :D

Fastest drivers most often wont give up hw they tune or the settings they win with.... Competative edge...
 
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you calling me stupid? well, thank you i have been called a lot worse. How dare i not enjoy your tune the way you want to drive, how dare i even assume my driving style is different in a positive manner than yours. How stupid of me. I will gladly take your "wrong" tunes any day. You Hemi guys are all alike.
 
Read the OP Mr Motor fake Racer

I got your X-Bow and it doent worry me at all, actually not much competition, BUT thats going to come after I get finished with the Busted understanding GTP Has on Camber...
That's class son,real class. OK Mr Napier take a NASCAR and prove your theory to me. Have fun you do 8 laps fast tire wear at Daytona and take all the pics you want. Pretty simple track.Prove your point.Can you provide your lap times and tire wear,if you actually last 8 laps.
 
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I just got my hands on your tune, I think I will bash it a bit first ;)

Damp and ARB settings clearly show you set the spring rate too high for dams and ARB to be any good except at low levels, you are not getting the most out of the car for certain. BUT That is the broken tuning style often used on GTP.

Ill tear it appart after driving it though, the brake setting is another indicator your not getting as much from this car as you should be. Dont see you making any laps times with it for me to go after with my own, any top speed it can hold in a corner you want me to beat?? Pic some and Ill get it done. Now its the flip, me driving your stuff :D

Fastest drivers most often wont give up hw they tune or the settings they win with.... Competative edge...
Really? I don't see a whole lot of Xbow rooms going on.Who says your fast?
 
We're still waiting for your X-bow tune jack, Seeing as it's tuned the right way or won't you share it and give up your "Competitive edge"
 
I have been reading through this, not sure why I guess conflict raises interest for everyone.

However, I have been leaving the camber out of my setups. And trying to get the hang of Gran Turismo 6 tuning specifically.

Mr Napier is very determined to get his point through as all of the doubters are as well. I have also seen alot of tuners and setups that have camber in them (not to mention countless cars in GT6 "stock" form).

So, I ask a couple questions:

Why not take one of the Cars with a good amount of "stock" camber do laps on a familiar track then take camber out and do the same-
compare them? Speed, cornering, and lap times (most important).

And are all the "doubters" saying that all these published tunes with camber adjusted are wrong?

I am tryin to be civil and trying to see both points...

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FYI- I am in the corner of the "doubters" just trying to find a finite conclusion or a constant that all of us can attempt. These guys publish their tunes and Mr Napier hasnt so there is no common ground here...
 
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I was expecting you guys to be unable to back your Bull Crap, selling BS as fact.....

Nice!!!!! The members who dont simply buy into all the crap sold on GTP just because can make up their minds on their own...

GTP has done so much to prove the GTP Teories and Tuning ideas on camber to be wrong, just look at ALL of the test they have done on Camber each one basically shows/proves the GTP consensus wrong...

Sooo

Visually - GTP Consensus is wrong

Track performance - GTP consensus is wrong

Teoretically applied to IRL or the Game - GTP Consesnsus is wrong

How about read the OP, because clearly you have not read it properly..........

Sorry bud it's just more of the same. Lots of words, pictures and theories doesn't prove or disprove anything about camber one way or the other.
That's what your article made me think too.
Lots of "everyone is wrong there because of I say it", only evidences you have is PICTURES.

Now I say IN THE REAL WORL SOFTWARE PROGRAMERS USE A PHYSIC ENGINE AND A GRAPHIC ENGINE, these are different pieces of the software. If you are not in informatics, you have to thrust me.

I can also say IN THE REAL WORLD THE CORVETTE C7 2014 HAVE A 201MPH TOP SPEED (this is what is sold by Chevrolet).
I can also say IN THE GAME THE CORVETTE C7 2014 HAVE A 235MPH TOP SPEED (and this is easely verifiable).

Therefor, THERE IS BUGS IN THE PHYSIC ENGINE. Four patches, four physic engine bugs solved, last one was braking.

Telling "Bullcap, bullcrap, bullcrap" doesn't make advance the debate. Your OP is 90% done of "gtp = bullcrap", 10% with tuning theory with can be summurized as "look at the pics".
Pics doesn't do the evidence job, sorry, chrono does.

As said @Motor City Hami, post a tune with camber. We will try this with and without camber and show our times, now enough saying "GTP = lol", go tune and come back with some proofs instead of posting pics :)
 
I even mention in the OP how there seems to be this double standard where IRL can be used to defend the broken GTP Camber consensus, but it cannot be used to refute it.... Very one sided don't yah think......

I have shown MANY pics now of the car going through MULTIPLE corners, If I have missed the important ones were we will see that horible neg cam on the outside or any neg camb on the outside, please post them, but EVERY TRACK EVERY CORNER I dont see what the heck you guys are talking about and it seems you are UNABLE to show me yourselvs, THAT is interesting and quite revealing....
Wow, this guy neither listens, nor has any concept of logic. His arguments go round and round in circles, and he contradicts himself with every pixel he throws on the screen. He might benefit from Googling "scientific method." Stop feeding the troll.
 
Okay Jack, I have some pictures for you. I'll throw them up with some context and perhaps you can explain from the visuals, since you profess the visuals and physics are the same, explain what is happening with camber and caster and cornering grip in each case. It took some time to do this so please don't answer it flippantly.

This is done using a stock XBow on Sports Hards at Stowe and the only thing that is changed is the camber. Same cornering load as best as I can tell, same steering angle, 2 different visuals. Can you explain them to me, meaning how are they different, why are the different and what effect each should in theory have on cornering grip. These are the outside tire by the way taken from behind with proper lighting as best I could to show the contact patch

This picture appears to show almost full contact with the road. Notice how the tread pattern lines up almost parallel with the body work left of the tire, meaningless in itself, but it allows you to compare with the next picture. To me this seems like pretty much ideal would you not say, at least visually? Note also that the contact patch appears to stretch well beyond the tread on both sides of the tire?
Silverstone The Stowe Circuit.jpg

Notice now that there is more visual camber? See how it isn't parallel with the inside bodywork? Note also that the contact patch appears to be smaller. On the right side of the tire the contact begins at the edge of the tread whereas in the above picture it extends an inch (guessing) or so?
Silverstone The Stowe Circuit_2.jpg


So visually speaking, since you're relying on visuals, which tire has better contact with the road and which one would corner better?
 
Here is some "Real World explanation's of what CAMBER ,CASTER, and TOE are." After you read it please give me your thoughts on how you achieve your caster or what you perceive as your caster.I will be very interested.

Your quote on caster.
PLEASE show me SOMETHING from GT6 not you unable to follow the point that we are to discuss ONLY Camber as it applies to the game, In Real life there are numerous differences to in the game, also not ONE of those suspentions do you have the CASTER angle setting and it seems people dont truely understand how caster effects camber...

Also you referance IRL pics when trying to understand whats happening in the game, why not go look at some in game pics.. Duh...

Grabbing IRL photos for your argument tells me you mucst not comprehend what Caster angle does and how it applies a camber effect, without knowing the caster angle HOW exactly can you tell me those IRL pics have the camb they use from camber and not the camber effect from caster ;) ..... You cant, its impossible unless those are pics of cars IRL you set the suspention up on and you can provide us wih the specific setting used on the car ir Caster/Camber/Toe

So your referance pics show nothing but a lack of understanding on the subject.
http://yospeed.com/wheel-alignment-explained-camber-caster-toe/
 
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All these photos are nice, but they only help to find the issue. They don't show the issue.

These photos show the in race visual mesh for the car (as opposed to the hi-res mesh that is used in the garage and photo mode).

It fails to show the collision mesh, nor does it show the physics mesh (if they have a separate mesh for that). The PS3 is incapable of using something as detailed as the visual mesh for collision, nor for physics (actually, I won't say completely incapable, but extremely unlikely give the conditions of GT6)

For this particular debate to be had with any validity, you would need to see how the physics interacts with the vehicle beyond the visual mesh.
 
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@Jack Napier
Nice pics in the OP - I've taken similar ones myself to try to see what is happening with camber. If you put the camera really close to the car you can often zoom in to inside the tyre and see the brake disc which I like to use as a nice reference plane.

I too found that the steering axis inclination and suspension geometry combo mean that the outside front is nearly always vertical, which could be a case for not needing any static camber, depending if tyre flex is modelled in the physics (it's not modelled visually). I have on occasion seen a little positive camber on the outside rear, with my S13. When visually trying to keep the outside tyres vertical in a corner, I ended up with settings of zero camber front and -0.2 rear (CS, stock car from what I remember, on the final corner at tsukuba).

I honestly think that the suspension geometry and steering axis inclination are the key issues here.
From what I can see, the debates here are along the lines of

Lots of people (paraphrased): "Zero static camber shouldn't be best in all situations"
Jack: "I just don’t see pos camber as an issue on my outside front in most corners on most tracks in GT"

To me it seems like both views are right, and that the GT6 suspension geometry modelling, compounded by the apparent lack of tyre flex model could easily account for this. You just don't need any static camber in GT6 to get the best alignment, which isn't the same situation as RL.

I think I said in another thread that the programming of how camber affects grip could be perfectly correct... it's just that the camber values supplied by the suspension model aren't realistic in the first place, so the tyre model never gets to do a proper job.

It's often been shown that PD don't use true stock alignment values (Cam is almost always 0/0, toe is 0/+0.2). Could this be the same reason the suspension geometry isn't modelled correctly? If you can't gather real alignment data for your sim, are you really going to have real suspension component lengths/angles? It would not suprise me if PD have a generic suspension model (hopefully for different types), and then have set the steering axis inclination in each case to give almost perfect camber when turning. Because if they didn't, the default 0 camber would become positive during cornering, which would lead to understeer, cars would handle quite horribly, and it would be obvious something was wrong.

Cheers,

Bread
 
All these photos are nice, but they only help to find the issue. They don't show the issue.

These photos show the in race visual mesh for the car (as opposed to the hi-res mesh that is used in the garage and photo mode).

It fails to show the collision mesh, nor does it show the physics mesh (if they have a separate mesh for that). The PS3 is incapable of using something as detailed as the visual mesh for collision, nor for physics (actually, I won't say completely incapable, but extremely unlikely give the conditions of GT6)

For this particular debate to be had with any validity, you would need to see how the physics interacts with the vehicle beyond the visual mesh.
True, but the pictures I posted appear to show different contact patches with different camber under load with one appearing to have more contact than the other although obviously you'd have to repeat the test many times to draw any definitive conclusions. Doesn't mean it's represented in the physics of the game but visually there is a difference.
 
True, but the pictures I posted appear to show different contact patches with different camber under load with one appearing to have more contact than the other although obviously you'd have to repeat the test many times to draw any definitive conclusions. Doesn't mean it's represented in the physics of the game but visually there is a difference.

Well, you can see in the garage that camber affects the visuals. But, if there is a bug, the physical could be pointed at the sky for all we know. Or as I posted in the other thread, it could be rotating on the wrong axis.

I still find this debate interesting because of the passionate pursuit of being correct.
 
Well, you can see in the garage that camber affects the visuals. But, if there is a bug, the physical could be pointed at the sky for all we know. Or as I posted in the other thread, it could be rotating on the wrong axis.

I still find this debate interesting because of the passionate pursuit of being correct.

OK, here comes a blurb from "Team Viejo", the oldest replica racer on GT6. (that would be me)
Long ago and far away, in Mustangworld, I decided to make my 96 SVT Cobra into a race/rally/track car, and barely managed to keep it street legal. After spending around 25,000 USDollars on suspension alone, the car began to handle so well, that Porches and Vipers and other hot cars would be staring in their rearview mirrors at the very close front end of my Mustang, in the corners!!!. (Had a Cobra R hood too!)
Basically, the stock suspension was thrown away and rebuilt from the ground up. Gee, this sounds familiar to us GT guys doesn't it? The front end was converted into true Macpherson strut suspension with coil-over Konis, adjustable ride height, with guess what, Caster/camber plates, that allowed adjustment of both caster and camber. The strut towers were impressively braced across the car and rearward to the firewall. The engine mounts were replaced with a tubular cradle unit that locked everything together and the steering ram was remounted with aluminum bushings for solid steering. Needless to say the moncoque frame was extensively beefed up, all the way out to the door sills with diagonal bracing. This became a stiff car. I got clued in to all this stuff while having Steve Saleen drive my stock Cobra around Seattle Intl Raceway. FOR FIVE LAPS!! I told him to "Go for it, the engine is Bulletproof" and did he ever!?!? I thought we were inside of a beached whale, the guy is a maniac!!! And the car was ridiculous!
Having access to camber was very beneficial in open track work and adding 2.5 degrees (negative) was optimal for smoking the Porches and Vipers. I was running Firestone SZ-50's which were actually built in the Bridgestone factory in Japan. These were equivalent to our Sport Soft tires with a speed limit of 160 mph.

The other thing that I loved doing was the Silver State Classic Series of rallies in Nevada. This is where they block off about 100 miles of PUBLIC ROAD and run the race/rally for about 8 hours. In the main event, the road was a series of straights, linked by corners that could be taken flat out to about 180 mph. Some of the straights were close to 14 miles long!! Shades of Route X! For this event, all that camber would not be required, so I would back off the camber to -0.5 degrees and swing the caster(the top of the struts) back to 9 degrees which is Mercedes country!! This made the car super stable at speed and still alowed decent cornering. Mercedes run a lot of caster because they are made to run well over 100 mph on the German Autobahns. They are not twitchy at speed and neither was my Mustang.

Just in case anybody cares, the rear suspension of my Mustang was also changed with coil-overs overtop of Koni circle track dampers, adjustable ride height of course, and a torque arm from the differential pumpkin to a cross member midships and a panhard bar to anchor the axle laterally made the ass end like a rock when you pushed the back of the car across the axle! Suddenly a Mustang that would not spin out was born!!

I guess the point of this epistle is to emphasise the function and importance of both caster and camber in tuning a race car. It would be my dream that PD could impliment both of these tuning aids in GT-6 as per real life cars.
For me the fun thing about GT-6 is being able to tune without spending a bazillion real dollars and not getting very dirty and greasy at the same time. Oh, and being able to tune in hours instead of months.

Thank you for your attention, Mustangxr
 
Please stop replying to this dude until we see the video of his perfectly cambered car. This is useless, really it is. I know it's just for debate but wow, two threads on the same topic saying the same crap from the same guy and no video that he claims to have. I remember CSL said in GT5 that people need to stop thinking about what works in real life and start thinking about what works in the game. This is still the tuners way.


Johnny you have alot of time dealing with this dude bro.
 
If you want anyone to listen to you, keep to your point direct, and keep it simple.
Writing a novel will only make people stop reading thinking they are wasting their time.

You do have a few very valid points, but your overlooking the key issues.

Why is the general consensus that camber is broken, or not complete, or ___whatever____?
Because in the past, namely GT5, camber made more sense. Adding small increments would have real easily seen effects on the track.
Because #2, in real life, adding small increments of camber has real easily seen effects on the track.
But for some reason in GT6, most testing does not produce anything close to those same two examples. The effect it does have is so small it's almost unrecognizable. And in most cases where in GT5, and in real life, where adding a small amount would help, it actually hurts.
I've had this change for me lately. I see good results in some of my testing, but nothing like it should be or was.

My belief, is that this is simply started coding, but unfinished. I believe that within a few game patches, this will become closer to it's intended reaction. I hope I'm right.

Coming here and saying that hundreds of very serious gamers are wrong, is two things. One, very brave of you, lol. But two not really the best course of action. I see this at work IRL a lot, where everyone working the floor does things certain ways because it either works best or most efficient, and then some big wig from the offices who never worked the floor, comes up with some idea and thinks for some reason beyond logic, that he knows something the hundreds of people in the trenches everyday do not.
And btw, the general consensus isn't technically that it's 'broken', those are just words used to shorten the truth. The actual agreed general consensus is that 'it's not working the way it has or should, yet'.
There is a difference.
 
All based on the logic “If Camber worked correctly, it would begin to add grip as you raise the setting from zero”. To justify this logic it is then explained the GTP community agrees Camber in the game is used to flatten out the contact patch of the outside tire to give it more cornering grip because the outside wheel is experiencing positive camber in the corners and adding negative camber will give it a larger contact patch and in doing so more grip…

I just don’t see pos camber as an issue on my outside front in most corners on most tracks in GT, it does not seem like PD intended camber to be tuned like GTP think it should. The only place I see raising camber from zero showing ANY improvement in GT6 would be on extreme banked corners like at Daytona Speedway, but this is only because the high degree of bank and extremely low turning angle. Any tune done for flatter tracks built with 0 camber or with a tuned in amount of camber will benefit from compensating for the bank with camber angle.

To help me visualize things, I decided to adjust the camber on my car to 0/0, and drive a few laps on a bunch of tracks then watch the replay. While viewing the replays I snapped a picture at the apex of every corner when I had the highest level of steering input on the corner. I began to analyze the pictures looking for when the outside front would be experiencing enough pos camber (for any of a multitude of reasons GTP believes it should be under pos camber the fixed caster angle doesn’t already take care of with camber effect) I’m honestly looking for that pos camb on the outside front everybody speaks of using neg camb setting is supposed to help..

Some say the wheels go where they are supposed to but do not act as they should, seeing them in the corners should give us an idea of if this is true. If true we will see the pos camber, and our adjustments increasing camber from zero on the front should flatten out the outside front tire to give it better grip, but its said because camber is broken, it lowers the grip instead working backwards to how it should… I don’t think we will see that at all, but we will see what’s really going on…

I thought it might be a good idea to look at the inside front during a corner with a 0 front camber setting. I know GTP says this is not important but let’s just look at it anyways.

In the game I do not see where adding a neg camber setting on the front will flatten the outside front tire any more than it already is because of the positive caster angle. Or how the GTP spin on Camber is thought to work at all, looking over the pictures it becomes VERY clear the GTP consensus has it wrong based on what is happening in the game (forget the complicate theoretical stuff they copy from real pros on the subject trying to back up this logic, as this is when GTP will fall into REAL world theories even though they will adamantly tell you not to use IRL as example to disprove the GTP logic saying IRL not important here ONLY what is applicable to the game That is an interesting double standard… GTP can use their interpretation of IRL to back and explain the GTP way of looking at camber, BUT IRL cannotbe used to disprove the GTP way of thinking………….

I have asked those backing the GTP logic to show me when the pos camber issues would benefit from GTP style camber tuning, but have yet to be given anything to show this, this being one of those times GTP will flood the topic with all kinds of real world stuff, pics diagrams, videos etc, (even though this would not be okay to do if opposing a GTP consensus remember there is a double standard at GTP) but when you sniff through all the stuff they put up, NOTHING at all showing the GTP logic actually working in game, it seems IMO that is done as a smokescreen to overload and confuse instead of to simplify & clarify. Not one in game pic to support the GTP logic on Camber… The GTP logic being completely unproven, even here at GTP, the test GTP have done, ONLY prove the GTP theory that is the general consensus on camber at GTP doesn’t work in the game at all.
Nobody ever said any of this, so half of your wall-of-text argument is against nothing...

I’ve been pointed out the places where the GTP way of camber tuning should supposedly work and where GTP agrees camber tuning is intended for, is only places like the cork screw at Laguna. I haven’t seen any GTP Testing of camber tuning in the cork screw. Interesting the one place pointed out where GTP camber style tuning is said to be needed is a place untested by GTP.
I test at the corkscrew all the time. Zero camber is still faster for me.

How exactly does increasing the camber angle increase the amount the outside front tire is in contact with the road? It doesn’t at all as we see from the pictures…
That's true, because it's modeled incorrectly.
Here's how it is supposed to look:
suspension_9.jpg


It doesn’t matter if my theories on how to tune camber in GT6 are correct or not, the FACT is the GTP logic on Camber and how to tune it is clearly proven to be false and does not work in the game as GTP thinks it should… How much other aspect of tuning could the GTP consensus be wrong about???
Exactly, it does not work in the game a GTP thinks it should. That is why we want it to be fixed. :odd:

It is also explained that the GTP community agrees that in a corner the outside tire is working more and therefore we need NOT adjust camber for the inside front tire in any way, I’ve been told GTP agrees the inside tires are not important when tuning camber… This too I do not understand..


Now you understand. 👍
 
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