University fees have increased

[Azuremen]

@ bold i've never had this problem ever on any other American site whether it be IGN,Gamespot,Gamfaqs or various GTA forums anyhoo.

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I don't follow UK politics as much as you do. For obvious reasons.

Though, about people putting in effort and it not working, that is just part of life. Things don't always work as planned, and a big part of life is learning how to work with that and risk assessment. Honestly, I don't even get where you are going with that.

 

[Jondot]

How to combat this? Apply for scholarships. Lots of scholarships. That should help.

That's the thing - we're just not used to seeing fees of this level, and as a result aren't set up to deal with it through scholarships and the like. In fact as far as I'm aware there are no scholarships available in the UK - certainly not for mainstream courses and universities anyway. There are bursaries and financial aid, but that entirely depends on the University you're at. Mine gives out £500 non-repayable grants every year to students on various courses, but none of my friends at other places seem to get anything similar.

To be honest (and this isn't directed at you specifically, by the way, you just happened to be the easiest to quote) I don't think it's particularly fair for Americans to wander in, say "our education still costs more than yours" and then conclude the discussion should end because we're all getting excited over nothing. Without getting into an in depth discussion about which country is cheaper to live in, we're two very different nations set up very differently. We've always prided ourself on having healthcare and education as more of a right than a privilege, so the idea of £27,000 in debt after a 3 year course is terrifying to us.

Having said that, we are British and as a result do enjoy a good moan every now and again. Similarly it seems that a few thousand people in this country also love running around breaking things when the opportunity arises, presumably in an attempt to justify calling themselves 'anarchists'. So unfortunately now this whole thing has now gone beyond the point where people logically weigh up the merits of such a scheme, and simply get on board with yelling 'IT'S AN EFFIN DISGRACE' instead.

 

[Raimundo.jcc]

Here in Portugal, I pay ~1000€/year without scholarship.
I'm studying Automobil Mechanical Engineering in ISEP (Instituto Superior de Engenharia do Porto), Oporto Engineering Superior Institut, which is parallel to University of Oporto, and is actualy part of Oporto Politecnical Institute (IPP). Nonetheless in FEUP (Univ. of Oporto equivalent to ISEP) fee is set at ~1000€ also.

 

[PeterJB]

And that's a bad thing?

It is if you're poor.

I'm always going to see it as a bad thing until my family's income increases to a comfortable level. Plus, I'm a socialist so thats another reason I'm against it.

 

[Sureboss]

I think the bigger issue with universities that needs sorting is the quality of the courses, not whether you pay for it or not.

 

[stumpydino]

I work for a vehicle graphics company, I am the only person that went to university and I am the least skilled. Sure I might know a bit more about adobe programs but I taught myself that anyway, but the practical abilities and experience they all have one up on me. I regret bothering with 'higher education', even more so when I talk to debt free happy people that went straight into making a career for themselves.
Of course they missed out on the years of funded binge drinking..
I am not against the fee rise, though it has been dealt with the wrong way, rather they need to tackle the trendy stupidity where actually knowing things and wanting to learn is shunned for being far too uncool to consider. One of my friends on the degree was a foreign student, paying £7000+ a year, with no complaint and one of the few people who did actually want to do the course instead of the usual air of 'can't be bothered this week' over half the students had. I went to uni because I thought I had to do it, not for the common socialising and slacking but because I thought it was necessary. Turns out it really wasn't.
I wish I had known of the better option, and these oafish children throwing toys out the pram need to learn some responsibility, genuine trade knowledge and people skills by getting out there and working properly.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'll admit this issue doesn't directly affect me, but I do have strong feelings about this and similar issues.

I didn't go to University, I left college at 19 after studying Maths, Physics, Design and Business at 'A' level (do they still have those ), and I chose to get a job - simply because I tend not to apply myself to things and I knew I would not put the effort in at Uni, and it would be a waste of a couple of years (from a career and financial point of view). So that was my choice.

However, the way I see it, going to University is an individuals choice, and one I believe is made for essentially selfish choices, the idea being a better future for themselves, and a good time to be had at the same time... and I have to say that if that is paid for from my taxes then I have as much right to grumble as if it had been somebody that chooses to abuse our lenient benefit system, sit on the sofa all day, not work, churning out kids, and living off the state - either way that person expects the average working man to fund their chosen way of life... annoying because I work six days a week to fund my way of life.

And also, I do think that having a job prior to going to Uni would a) help students pay for it, and b) make them a far more rounded student, better able to apply their knowledge to the real world, and better able to manage their life whilst at Uni...

Don't get me wrong the government needs to keep a sense of perspective, it has to be possible for somebody to earn enough DURING their study to support themselves, as well as actually do some studying, but lets be honest, student towns aren't normally ghost towns on a friday night, they find money from somewhere, to get shedded, do drugs, and 'meet' people!

On the whole our education system is f'd, the state of some of the school leavers that apply for jobs with our company, is pitiful, laughable, worrying and frustrating, at all levels of the company, from Managers to packers!

 

[Joel]

It is if you're poor.

I'm always going to see it as a bad thing until my family's income increases to a comfortable level. Plus, I'm a socialist so thats another reason I'm against it.

Socialism is a bad thing if you're rich. Just because other people can afford school and you can't doesn't justify taking their money to pay for your school.

 

[Sage]

Moving this to the Opinions forum...

... although having suggested that, this has basically turned into a libertarian/socialism argument and probably just re-hashes the arguments made in this thread.

 

[blaaah]

I support the tuition fee at the full £9k a year. It benefits the poor and ends up making the well off pay most for the costs of university education. The reason this is because all tuition is absolutely free unless you earn over £21k a year. Where i live people can get a good job and earn well under £21k for the rest of their working career. Sorted free university degree education. This system is much fairer than the old one. I don't know why anyone is complaining. Apart from those living in London i presume where living expenses are high and jobs are highly paid ( more likely to be over £21k), the solution is to live out of the city, cities are horrible places in my opinion.

 

[Owen.C93]

I support the tuition fee at the full £9k a year. It benefits the poor and ends up making the well off pay most for the costs of university education. The reason this is because all tuition is absolutely free unless you earn over £21k a year. Where i live people can get a good job and earn well under £21k for the rest of their working career. Sorted free university degree education. This system is much fairer than the old one. I don't know why anyone is complaining. Apart from those living in London i presume where living expenses are high and jobs are highly paid ( more likely to be over £21k), the solution is to live out of the city, cities are horrible places in my opinion.

You can't really get round that it's £6k more per yeah. So £18k extra for a uni qualification.

Still you kinda have to give it to the protesters, sure they are being arses, but they are very passionate considering this rise wont affect them. It only matters if you are currently <17 years old.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Still you kinda have to give it to the protesters,.

2800 police versus 40000 protesters.. the most impressive thing is only 6 coppers got hurt!

 

[Keef]

The last thing i want as a student (at college doing HND) look at the prospect of having even more debt im 2.5k in debt by the end of a 2 year course not very good prospect in the current situation with jobs.

2,500 pounds? That's how much my 2 years will cost and I go to the least expensive community college in the state of Ohio. I'm paying for it with unsubsidized government loans. A mile down the street is the University of Dayton where they charge $35,000 a year. The school I want to transfer to specializes in aviation - they charge nearly $40,000 a year, flight costs not included. That's another 40k. A 4-year student could be looking at a $200,000 price tag.

College is the best investment a young person could possibly make. Not that racking it up carelessly is a good thing, but generally you'll end up with the tools to get your good job, pay off the debt, and live your life comfortably. Even more so if you happened to pick a well-paid profession.

Before you go on about private colleges charging way too much I should let you know that it cost vastly more to send me through 4 years of public high school than it would to take typical courses at Sinclair for 4 years. And to what end? I've learned more useful life skills in the 4 years I've been out of high school than the 4 years I was in it. Public education is the dumps, bro.

This protest never would have happened if universities over there were private. They've got nobody to blame but themselves. I don't necessarily support the students either - the most of them think public education is a fair deal. Citizens get pissed when the government raises the price of the system they voted for in the first place. Makes not the slightest bit of sense.

 

[Dotini]

...I can get into university I will never be able to afford it, or be landed in about 10 years worth of debt. So any plans to combat this?
I am thinking studying abroad may be a better option but may be just as hard to do.
discuss your opinions.

My opinion is that a University education today is almost valueless. Very few of the Class of 2010 found employment commensurate with their education, and we all know technology, business models and globalization can make education obsolete overnight.

Therefore, my suggestion is to go into the trades - learn to do something useful and rewarding like plumbing or electrical work. If you are too intellectual for the trades, go into the arts.

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[lpb-nissan-gt-r]

I am currently doing computer networking(cisco) and looking down that career path.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The big argument here is that the Lib Dems are in a position of power because their party made promises, written pledges, to scrap tuition fees

Now Mr Clegg says he would phase out the fees over six years.

This was the key reason that several thousands of students voted for them. And now they've not only broken this election pledge, they've done the complete opposite.

That's the thing - we're just not used to seeing fees of this level, and as a result aren't set up to deal with it through scholarships and the like. In fact as far as I'm aware there are no scholarships available in the UK - certainly not for mainstream courses and universities anyway. There are bursaries and financial aid, but that entirely depends on the University you're at. Mine gives out £500 non-repayable grants every year to students on various courses, but none of my friends at other places seem to get anything similar.

In Swansea, if you achieved AAB you got a £1500 scholarship for the first 2 years. There are others available for doing well on your course.

In engineering there are post-graduate scholarships that will either pay £9k to cover fees and living costs or pay as much as £18k tax free. Higher achievers get first priority, but most of them are on the 4 years straight to masters course anyway. And none are on the condition you go to work for your sponsor.

Yes. We tend to think you need to work for something a bit more than the Brits seem to.

Wrong angle, entirely. You don't just get handed a degree in either country, and I can assure you that most engineering/science students won't have done a general studies or sociology studies module as part of their degree, which is quite common in America.

 

[Keef]

Therefore, my suggestion is to go into the trades - learn to do something useful and rewarding like plumbing or electrical work. If you are too intellectual for the trades, go into the arts.

Wow, what a fantastically written post. Intense sarcasm delicately interwoven with truth to the point where I can't decide whether to argue or agree. If I hadn't known you as a carpenter I'd have thought it was written by a Master of English.

Plumbing can pay pretty good. The only problem with plumbing is...you're a plumber. My dad is old-school - he could build a house like Fort Knox if given the time and money. He's a skilled tool and die maker of 40 years, he can sweat pipe like a pro, he built our patio cover out back, poured the deck and screwed together the deck that hangs over the hill and surrounds our in-ground pool. He built our shed. He replaced all the attic insulation because the contractor who built the house did a poor job. He's de-shingled and re-shingled our roof a couple times since the house has stood. The other day he replaced the thermostat in the hot water heater.

I can't count how many times he's told me "This sucks. Get an education and be the boss, not the slave." Now of course I totally admire his skills and motivation, but I also happen to work at the same shop he does. Guess what? It sucks.

Wrong angle, entirely. You don't just get handed a degree in either country, and I can assure you that most engineering/science students won't have done a general studies or sociology studies module as part of their degree, which is quite common in America.

You deny his claim that Brits don't work as hard, and then you say that they do less during college? Do you not agree that social studies are an important aspect of any job, in any workplace, and in life in general?

 

[niky]

I agree on the private school angle. It was recently revealed that due to government subsidy, the cost of sending a student to a State University here was equivalent to the cost of that student going to a private university. Only without the better facilities, better-paid teachers and more up-to-date course materials.

Public (university) education is a waste of everyone's money. If the government simply gave that amount out in terms of scholarships to private institutions, they'd be saving everyone a hell of a lot of money and making more students happy.

Actually... I have the same opinion of public elementary education. I fully believe that private institutions should take the students and receive the money being used to support them. The huge bureaucracy and top-heavy hierarchy inherent in the public education system makes it expensive-to-run, slow to react to educational trends and inherently less efficient than private education.

-

Oh... and about studying abroad... one year's tuition here is about a thousand pounds... give or take. And the cost of living is insanely low.

And some of us speak more than a passable amount of english... though if you're Scottish, you might have to speak slowly so the teachers can understand you...

 

[ExigeEvan]

You deny his claim that Brits don't work as hard, and then you say that they do less during college? Do you not agree that social studies are an important aspect of any job, in any workplace, and in life in general?

Less? Who says they do less just because they don't do certain generic modules? No, we do maths, physics and design from start to end, with to my knowledge only one module of Personal and Professional Development and 1 module of Business Management compulsory for accreditation from IMechE and RAe at undergraduate level.

And no, I don't agree social studies is an important part of anyone's education above secondary school (16yo).

 

[niky]

It's important if you want to vote.

Or if you want to join the Communist Party...

 

[Keef]

And no, I don't agree social studies is an important part of anyone's education above secondary school (16yo).

The entire point of college is to make you think for yourself. Psychology and sociology are certainly important aspects of thinking, and all the "dumb" courses that new students think are a waste of time aren't actually a waste of time.

For example: In the US there are many vocational schools to choose from, some very high-profile, like WyoTech. They get straight to the point and teach you how to do something so you can get a job and make money. They also leave you an intellectual idiot, able to contribute little to society beyond an intimate knowledge of diesel combustion or Bondo mix ratios.

 

[blaaah]

You can't really get round that it's £6k more per yeah. So £18k extra for a uni qualification.

Still you kinda have to give it to the protesters, sure they are being arses, but they are very passionate considering this rise wont affect them. It only matters if you are currently <17 years old.

It only costs that much if you choose a highly paid job, it's free if you choose not to.
And it does matter to those over 17, i'm over 30 and haven't done a degree yet but i still plan to. I would do a full time 3 year degree. And i wouldn't have to pay for it.

 

[CaptianChili]

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/london_tuition_fee_protest.html

I think this would be an interesting link to share about the tuition increase.

 

[ExigeEvan]

The entire point of college is to make you think for yourself. Psychology and sociology are certainly important aspects of thinking, and all the "dumb" courses that new students think are a waste of time aren't actually a waste of time.

For example: In the US there are many vocational schools to choose from, some very high-profile, like WyoTech. They get straight to the point and teach you how to do something so you can get a job and make money. They also leave you an intellectual idiot, able to contribute little to society beyond an intimate knowledge of diesel combustion or Bondo mix ratios.

Sorry, still disagree. Reading a book and sitting an exam does not make you interested in politics or give you the skills to work better in a team. An actual interest and the experience of working in structured design groups throughout your 3 years give you a far better grounding of what's involved.

To say without these modules you are "able to contribute little to society" leaves me wondering how little you think those without a higher education contribute.

 

[Famine]

This country is becoming increasingly capitalist as time goes on.

Good.

Though this isn't a sign of it, not by a long way.

It is if you're poor.

Capitalism is good if you're poor - far better for you than people higher up, even.

I'm always going to see it as a bad thing until my family's income increases to a comfortable level. Plus, I'm a socialist so thats another reason I'm against it.

If you're a socialist you should be in favour of this - it was, after all, introduced by a Labour government! And lest we forget, if you're a socialist your family income is at a "comfortable" level depending on what everyone else decides "comfortable" is - they have more claim over your money than you do.

 

[Jondot]

I think the bigger issue with universities that needs sorting is the quality of the courses, not whether you pay for it or not.

👍 This is why I'm not totally against the rise - I would happily rack up twice the debt if it meant that the course I'm on was actually educating me and was of some use. At the minute neither of those things are true.

I work for a vehicle graphics company, I am the only person that went to university and I am the least skilled. Sure I might know a bit more about adobe programs but I taught myself that anyway, but the practical abilities and experience they all have one up on me. I regret bothering with 'higher education', even more so when I talk to debt free happy people that went straight into making a career for themselves.
Of course they missed out on the years of funded binge drinking..
I am not against the fee rise, though it has been dealt with the wrong way, rather they need to tackle the trendy stupidity where actually knowing things and wanting to learn is shunned for being far too uncool to consider. One of my friends on the degree was a foreign student, paying £7000+ a year, with no complaint and one of the few people who did actually want to do the course instead of the usual air of 'can't be bothered this week' over half the students had. I went to uni because I thought I had to do it, not for the common socialising and slacking but because I thought it was necessary. Turns out it really wasn't.
I wish I had known of the better option, and these oafish children throwing toys out the pram need to learn some responsibility, genuine trade knowledge and people skills by getting out there and working properly.

This is going to be me in 2 years time. I'm doing what I can only assume is your exact course, and other than simply forcing me into learning how to use Flash (which realistically I could have done on my own like I did with Photoshop and Illustrator) it's been of no use. Well that and raising my blood pressure to level of a 40 year old stockbroker, I'd imagine. There's always been a general consensus that media degrees aren't 'real degrees', and unfortunately it's looking like that's starting to pan out. I think that's one of the big issues in the UK - Universities are very happy to take your money and provide you with a course that cons you into thinking it'll be useful, and they preys particularly on students who think they actually need to go to Uni. I'm now stuck half way - if I leave now I'll have a few grand in debt and no further qualifications, and if I say I'll have twice that debt and a bit of paper that says I have good skills in approximately nothing. That's assuming I manage to graduate, as since I applied my course has been transformed from practical graphic design skills into a useless offshoot of a communication studies - which surprisingly enough I'm not very good at. If I was, I probably would have just gone ahead and applied for it in the first place. As far as I can see, the only way around this is simply for me to build up a non-uni work portfolio while I'm here, thereby attempting to ensure that I don't entirely have to start at square 1 when I graduate.

 

[ExigeEvan]

👍 This is why I'm not totally against the rise - I would happily rack up twice the debt if it meant that the course I'm on was actually educating me and was of some use. At the minute neither of those things are true.

Except these tuition fee increases at best cover the cuts from direct government funding but are more likely to lead to a general drop in funding.

 

[Jondot]

Except these tuition fee increases at best cover the cuts from direct government funding but are more likely to lead to a general drop in funding.

Oh super. Guess I can kiss goodbye the idea of having a design lab full of computers that actually work then.

 

[Sphinx]

The new teenage revolution. Music to my ears. 👍

Where have you been for the last 15 years?

So it begins...

 

[Alex p.]

I really feel damned sorry for you English, the amount of money you have to pay is simply redicilous.