Unprovoked aggression?

[Felix]

Nope. Haven't read the thread. Don't need to read it. At 1:43 the Beetle has (almost surely) made contact with the BMW at precisely the correct point to cause the BMW to lose control in a manner that will not impact or really impede its own progress. 92.5% now, the Beetle did that on purpose. I'm not exactly new to race craft.

So rather than the Beetle's driver choosing his battles and driving poorly, you believe he hit with the full intent of gaining the place and didn't care about what happened to t'other driver?

 

[Potato_Head]

So rather than the Beetle's driver choosing his battles and driving poorly, you believe he hit with the full intent of gaining the place and didn't care about what happened to t'other driver?

I just feel that, knowing the exact position of the outside car, the Beetle chose (or made a mistake?) to change the steering angle at that exact moment. This (incidentally) meant the Beetle hit the C piilar and that was perfect. It's just too perfect.

 

[Shottah072]

I just feel that, knowing the exact position of the outside car, the Beetle chose (or made a mistake?) to change the steering angle at that exact moment. This (incidentally) meant the Beetle hit the C piilar and that was perfect. It's just too perfect.

So he is the best dirty driver ever ?

 

[Potato_Head]

So he is the best dirty driver ever ?

I'm not sure I understand? The C Pillar bit?

 

[Felix]

I just feel that, knowing the exact position of the outside car, the Beetle chose (or made a mistake?) to change the steering angle at that exact moment. This (incidentally) meant the Beetle hit the C piilar and that was perfect. It's just too perfect.

I've just watched the reply at the time stamp you said, to me it looks like he's too keen to put the power down. He's the type of driver who can knock out one quickish lap in an OP car, but lacks racecraft and consistency. He's totally to blame, but I think it's stupidity and lack of skill that causes him to crash.

 

[Potato_Head]

I've just watched the reply at the time stamp you said, to me it looks like he's too keen to put the power down. He's the type of driver who can knock out one quickish lap in an OP car, but lacks racecraft and consistency. He's totally to blame, but I think it's stupidity and lack of skill that causes him to crash.

Oh yeah, I never said it was on purpose. And let's be honest; anyone racing in a Beetle is guilty of poor choice.

 

[Shottah072]

Oh yeah, I never said it was on purpose.

On purpose or not (although, it is definitely on purpose)

92.5% now, the Beetle did that on purpose.

 

[Potato_Head]

Okay, you got me. That is definitely on purpose. If it's not, it's just general incompetence.

 

[Shottah072]

Okay, you got me. That is definitely on purpose. If it's not, it's just general incompetence.

Why you choose to believe it was on purpose ? Why do do you immediately assume that ? And based on what ? The guy drove cleanly up till then. Is incompetence not way more likely ? The guy obviously is not a pro driver... yet you are implying he timed that pit manoeuvre perfectly mid corner and he did it al on purpose like he is the best skilled dirty driver to ever walk the earth.

Both drivers werent perfect, they both made their mistakes and they both didnt give or take enough space and it resulted in contact. Instead of trying to look for signs it was on purpose and dirty driving. Maybe try to look what both drivers could have or should have done different. When u look at it like that you can learn from it and your race craft improves. When you are only looking to blame of dirty driving you dont learn anything.

 

[Factor41]

Maybe, but he could have kept away, it's not like I came at him from above, here is another angle:

From the first video, I was a bit confused but after this one, I'd say it was a racing incident. Looks like the Beetle went in a bit too hot, but despite that, you still chose to go round the outside of him and quite close to the apex. He managed to keep it on the kerbs to avoid you, then as he accelerates out of the corner, he understeers, tries to correct it and makes contact with your car which is still closer than he expected. As he does this he immediately tightens his line and tries to move away from you, but it's too late and you, steadfastly refusing to back off the throttle, start to spin. If anything, I'd say the Beetle was just trying to drive beyond his talent (he's driving a fricking Beetle, don't expect sound decision making from him) and that could have been mitigated entirely with a little less aggression on your part.

In GT as in life, assume all other drivers are incompetent and you'll rarely find yourself surprised.

 

[GTFraker]

Thanks for the fresh takes guys, appreciate it. I do take blame for my part, but I still feel the Beetle takes the major share of the fault.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

Oh my God.
It was a racing incident, move on.

And what's with this "holier than thou" rubbish against people driving a Bettle?

Both parties could have done better.
I guarantee the OP has punted people of the track before, but l bet he didn't post a Youtube video about it labelled "dirty Polish driver".

I've certainly taken someone out.
I would love to hear from someone with the bold claim they never have.

We all make mistakes.
This trend on this site that every incident involves a "dirty" driver is getting out of control.

 

[baldgye]

Oh my God.
It was a racing incident, move on.

And what's with this "holier than thou" rubbish against people driving a Bettle?

Both parties could have done better.
I guarantee the OP has punted people of the track before, but l bet he didn't post a Youtube video about it labelled "dirty Polish driver".

I've certainly taken someone out.
I would love to hear from someone with the bold claim they never have.

We all make mistakes.
This trend on this site that every incident involves a "dirty" driver is getting out of control.

If you want to contribute to the 'good racing' thread you're more than welcome

There seems to be more people complaing about negative threads than actual negative threads... but when there is a positive one, it gets comparativley little attention/posts

 

[Tassie_tiger]

If you want to contribute to the 'good racing' thread you're more than welcome

There seems to be more people complaing about negative threads than actual negative threads... but when there is a positive one, it gets comparativley little attention/posts

I would, but of course I'm in the "privileged" group.
Almost all of my races are either boring, due to bad matchmaking, or they are close, clean races.

And l understand that it isn't all roses in the lower grades.
That's not my issue.

But this endless assumption that every race incident is due to "dirty" driving, so let's roll with the smear campaign on Youtube, is doing my head in.

 

[Potato_Head]

Thanks for the fresh takes guys, appreciate it. I do take blame for my part, but I still feel the Beetle takes the major share of the fault.

Absolutely. There's no other answer. The Beetle is 97.5% at fault.

 

[GTWelsh]

I like these threads, most comments are helpful and people learn a thing or two. It also equally applies to any real life motorsport people might want to partake in

 

[baldgye]

...or they are close, clean races.

If only there was a place to share such positivity and good online experiences... ah well

 

[GTFraker]

Absolutely. There's no other answer. The Beetle is 97.5% at fault.

I say 97.2% would be more accurate.

I like these threads, most comments are helpful and people learn a thing or two. It also equally applies to any real life motorsport people might want to partake in

Every now and then that I find the time to take the car to the track and have some tame racing with friends and friends of friends, I have the opportunity to discuss the race with the participants right after. Even if it's a short exchange, it has a very cathartic effect, but online video game racing doesn't really give you that option. So, I decided to discuss it here and I am pleased to have done so.

 

[Tassie_tiger]

If only there was a place to share such positivity and good online experiences... ah well

Point taken.

I'm just not a big fan of saving replays.
Let alone to highlight a single incident as if l was robbed by a "dirty" driver.

I find the only race replay l have and post it.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Oh my God.
It was a racing incident, move on.

And what's with this "holier than thou" rubbish against people driving a Bettle?

Both parties could have done better.
I guarantee the OP has punted people of the track before, but l bet he didn't post a Youtube video about it labelled "dirty Polish driver".

I've certainly taken someone out.
I would love to hear from someone with the bold claim they never have.

We all make mistakes.
This trend on this site that every incident involves a "dirty" driver is getting out of control.

I like that - had to log in instantly to tell you 👍 !

 

[Johnnypenso]

I must say i am really amazed that even though you know the rules you still get it wrong most of the time. The beetle maintained control and left a car width of space but OP didnt use all of that space for reasons he already explained. It is clearly a racing incident both could have avoided but both didnt.

I must say I'm amazed we can read the same text and watch the same video and you cannot see the obvious. This is the point at which contact is made. There is no contact before this. Both drivers left sufficient room to negotiate the corner successfully without contact. At this point the Beetle moved into the other car, intentional or accidental is irrelevant. You are responsible for the behaviour of your own car:

C: You are expected to compete in a fair and honest manner. With fair and honest is meant according to the GTP online racing rules, not according to your own interpretation of fair and honest.
D: You are expected to drive responsibly in a way that is not likely to ruin the racing enjoyment of your fellow drivers.
H: The position of other drivers must always be respected.
L: No careless driving. Always show respect for your fellow racers. Be careful. Show some patience. Understand the limitations of your car and yourself and drive accordingly. Driving online in a racing sim is NOT exactly the same as real life racing in every respect.

I think some of you guys get too caught up in assigning blame instead of assigning responsibility. You don't know what the intent was, therefore you can't assign blame. But the fact remains that the Beetle moved out of its lane and into the other car. It's not subject to debate, it happened, it's clear as day on the video, therefore it's the Beetle's responsibility.

 

[Shottah072]

I must say I'm amazed we can read the same text and watch the same video and you cannot see the obvious. This is the point at which contact is made. There is no contact before this. Both drivers left sufficient room to negotiate the corner successfully without contact. At this point the Beetle moved into the other car, intentional or accidental is irrelevant. You are responsible for the behaviour of your own car:
View attachment 700796


I think some of you guys get too caught up in assigning blame instead of assigning responsibility. You don't know what the intent was, therefore you can't assign blame. But the fact remains that the Beetle moved out of its lane and into the other car. It's not subject to debate, it happened, it's clear as day on the video, therefore it's the Beetle's responsibility.

It is because you know the rules but keep making wrong calls of whats going on on track... The beetle didnt move into him they moved into eachother. Look at the space OP has available at contact (2 car widhts) and look at his angle, his line moved into the beetles as much as the Beetles line moved into him. OP took a tight exit while he knew there was car on the inside and the Beetle took a wide exit while he knew OP was there. Therefore they are both responsible and therefore it was a racing incident.

 

[baldgye]

I must say I'm amazed we can read the same text and watch the same video and you cannot see the obvious. This is the point at which contact is made. There is no contact before this. Both drivers left sufficient room to negotiate the corner successfully without contact. At this point the Beetle moved into the other car, intentional or accidental is irrelevant. You are responsible for the behaviour of your own car:
View attachment 700796


I think some of you guys get too caught up in assigning blame instead of assigning responsibility. You don't know what the intent was, therefore you can't assign blame. But the fact remains that the Beetle moved out of its lane and into the other car. It's not subject to debate, it happened, it's clear as day on the video, therefore it's the Beetle's responsibility.

I mean, it’s not that amazing... FIA officials don’t agree on actual racing collisions.

But to offer another opinion (at at least your own or the OP’s), the Beetle didn’t change lanes, he just took the corner as one would expect, if anyone was in the ‘wrong lane’ (something that I dont think is a real thing in racing), it was the OP who was going around the outside, while being a full car’s width away from the outside of the track. As motor racing’s prophet would say; “you have to leave the space”, which he did, the OP just chose not to use it.

I’ve seen him say he wanted to avoid the ghosting driver, which is fine, but why would you try and avoid someone, while also trying to over take someone/defend a position, around the outside of a fairly tricky corner that isn’t flat or slow?
He put himself in harms way and got harmed.

 

[Mr616]

I must say I'm amazed we can read the same text and watch the same video and you cannot see the obvious. This is the point at which contact is made. There is no contact before this. Both drivers left sufficient room to negotiate the corner successfully without contact. At this point the Beetle moved into the other car, intentional or accidental is irrelevant. You are responsible for the behaviour of your own car:
View attachment 700796


I think some of you guys get too caught up in assigning blame instead of assigning responsibility. You don't know what the intent was, therefore you can't assign blame. But the fact remains that the Beetle moved out of its lane and into the other car. It's not subject to debate, it happened, it's clear as day on the video, therefore it's the Beetle's responsibility.

In that screen shot, the beetle is still turning right. You can see his wheels, and is clear as day. If he inputs any more lock he could initiate a spin. The Z4 is on the outside, still turning right with 2 car widths to his left. Easy for the Z4 to leave space

You could conclude the Z4 is squeezing. I don't see, in any of the footage, the beetle turning left, or moving into the Z4. The Z4 could've opened up the steering to leave more room.

It is a racing incident in my view, but the beetle was at the mercy of the Z4 IMO. It is not as clear as you are making out.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It is because you know the rules but keep making wrong calls of whats going on on track... The beetle didnt move into him they moved into eachother. Look at the space OP has available at contact (2 car widhts) and look at his angle, his line moved into the beetles as much as the Beetles line moved into him. OP took a tight exit while he knew there was car on the inside and the Beetle took a wide exit while he knew OP was there. Therefore they are both responsible and therefore it was a racing incident.

Tight line on exit? Are are we looking at the same picture? The OP is more than half way across the track towards the outside at exit when contact occurs, there is plenty of space for the other driver. And in the picture I used the OP is heading straight up the track while the other car is moving at an angle into his rear quarter. It couldn't be more clear.

I mean, it’s not that amazing... FIA officials don’t agree on actual racing collisions.

But to offer another opinion (at at least your own or the OP’s), the Beetle didn’t change lanes, he just took the corner as one would expect, if anyone was in the ‘wrong lane’ (something that I dont think is a real thing in racing), it was the OP who was going around the outside, while being a full car’s width away from the outside of the track. As motor racing’s prophet would say; “you have to leave the space”, which he did, the OP just chose not to use it.

I’ve seen him say he wanted to avoid the ghosting driver, which is fine, but why would you try and avoid someone, while also trying to over take someone/defend a position, around the outside of a fairly tricky corner that isn’t flat or slow?
He put himself in harms way and got harmed.

There no requirement to be on the outside curb when going around the outside of another car, that's ludicrous., You only need to leave enough space to get around safely which they both did.

 

[baldgye]

There no requirement to be on the outside curb when going around the outside of another car, that's ludicrous., You only need to leave enough space to get around safely which they both did.

Who said anything about being on the curb? Also if the OP had left enough room, they wouldn’t have come together...

 

[GTFraker]

It is because you know the rules but keep making wrong calls of whats going on on track... The beetle didnt move into him they moved into eachother. Look at the space OP has available at contact (2 car widhts) and look at his angle, his line moved into the beetles as much as the Beetles line moved into him. OP took a tight exit while he knew there was car on the inside and the Beetle took a wide exit while he knew OP was there. Therefore they are both responsible and therefore it was a racing incident.

Two cars worth of space? I had half a width of a car on my left, I was the car in the lead coming into the turn and I let the Beetle have the inside line to avoid contact.

In that screen shot, the beetle is still turning right. You can see his wheels, and is clear as day. If he inputs any more lock he could initiate a spin. The Z4 is on the outside, still turning right with 2 car widths to his left. Easy for the Z4 to leave space

You could conclude the Z4 is squeezing. I don't see, in any of the footage, the beetle turning left, or moving into the Z4. The Z4 could've opened up the steering to leave more room.

It is a racing incident in my view, but the beetle was at the mercy of the Z4 IMO. It is not as clear as you are making out.

The Beetle is not even trying to turn right while my tyre angles and car direction clearly show that I was heading to the left of the track. No at time of contact I had half a car width worth of space. It would not have mattered though cause the Beetle was clearly cutting across the track on a collision course with my car.
It's not qualifying, it was during a race, I left a generous amount of space for the other driver to operate yet was gesture was not returned.

EDIT: Here is a better shot:

Tight line on exit? Are are we looking at the same picture? The OP is more than half way across the track towards the outside at exit when contact occurs, there is plenty of space for the other driver. And in the picture I used the OP is heading straight up the track while the other car is moving at an angle into his rear quarter. It couldn't be more clear.


There no requirement to be on the outside curb when going around the outside of another car, that's ludicrous., You only need to leave enough space to get around safely which they both did.

Apparently for some unknown reason the leading car is required to play selfless host.

 

[Shottah072]

Tight line on exit? Are are we looking at the same picture? The OP is more than half way across the track towards the outside at exit when contact occurs, there is plenty of space for the other driver. And in the picture I used the OP is heading straight up the track while the other car is moving at an angle into his rear quarter. It couldn't be more clear.


There no requirement to be on the outside curb when going around the outside of another car, that's ludicrous., You only need to leave enough space to get around safely which they both did.

Yes a tight line on exit. You dont agree he could used more space ? Even OP said he could used more space. If not then thats why you fail even with the rules at hand. OP being in a straight line is him taking a tight exit as he should be pointing more in the same direction as the beetle steering towards the edge of track knowing a car is there. OP could have used more space, the Beetle could have gave more space (even tough there are still 2 car widths of space between him and the track edge when contact occurs). You cant blame one for not giving or taking space and not the other, hence why it is a racing incident.

 

[Potato_Head]

Interesting how this is dividing opinions so much

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yes a tight line on exit. You dont agree he could used more space ? Even OP said he could used more space. If not then thats why you fail even with the rules at hand. OP being in a straight line is him taking a tight exit as he should be pointing more in the same direction as the beetle steering towards the edge of track knowing a car is there. OP could have used more space, the Beetle could have gave more space (even tough there are still 2 car widths of space between him and the track edge when contact occurs). You cant blame one for not giving or taking space and not the other, hence why it is a racing incident.

The Beetle had 2/3 of the track at the point of impact, the BMW 1/3 of the track. To any reasonable person that's more than enough space. All that was left for the BMW was about a car width and the curbing. I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to say that the OP should be even closer to the edge of the track at that point to absolve themselves of responsibility. Here are the two cars that proceed through the corner after the OP and their position, running alone, is the same as the OPs in one case, and even closer to the inside of the track in the other.