Unprovoked aggression?

[zzz_pt]

The Beetle had 2/3 of the track at the point of impact, the BMW 1/3 of the track. To any reasonable person that's more than enough space. All that was left for the BMW was about a car width and the curbing. I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to say that the OP should be even closer to the edge of the track at that point to absolve themselves of responsibility. Here are the two cars that proceed through the corner after the OP and their position, running alone, is the same as the OPs in one case, and even closer to the inside of the track in the other.
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Racing rules don't mention angles in relation to the track limits while overtaking on a corner but only a car's width. The Beetle could (I don't think he did) have squeezed the BMW to the outside line, provided he left him 1 car width - that's what matters imo. He didn't squeeze him and for sure he left him more than enough space on the outside.

The line that other cars take is kinda meaningless because the Z4 had more than enough space to continue and probably get his position back on the next corner.

Also, the images you posted show that those cars are not the best example of the best line. The best line on that corner takes you to the curb on the outside. Neither of those drivers is going fast enough to do that. The OP could have done that and use the curb as well.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Racing rules don't mention angles in relation to the track limits while overtaking on a corner but only a car's width. The Beetle could (I don't think he did) have squeezed the BMW to the outside line, provided he left him 1 car width - that's what matters imo. He didn't squeeze him and for sure he left him more than enough space on the outside.

The line that other cars take is kinda meaningless because the Z4 had more than enough space to continue and probably get his position back on the next corner.

Also, the images you posted show that those cars are not the best example of the best line. The best line on that corner takes you to the curb on the outside. Neither of those drivers is going fast enough to do that. The OP could have done that and use the curb as well.

You are using a set of rules I'm not familiar with, nor subscribe to, when it comes to online racing. The GTP OLR specifically prohibits squeezing someone to the outside line:

If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to sufficient side room. The ahead driver must also leave sufficient side room for the behind driver. This means that each driver has a right to their respective "line", or side of the track, right up to the exit point. Neither driver should squeeze the other toward the inside or outside of the corner during the apex or exit.

The "best line" is not part of the GTP OLR. The OP could have taken his car to the curb on the outside but he didn't. He also could have slammed on the brakes halfway through the corner to concede the position. He didn't do that either. But, like slamming on the brakes mid-corner, he wasn't required in any online racing rules I am familiar with, to move all the way to the outside of the track or face accepting responsibility for contact. He safely negotiated the corner without contact and at exit gave the BMW more than enough room for a safe escape from the corner.

If you have a set of rules that allows you to squeeze people to the edge of the track and requires a driver on the outside to go all the way to the curbing, and it provides for good clean online racing, I'd really like to see them.

 

[zzz_pt]

That happens all the time even in F1. "Squeezing" is allowed if you leave 1 car width for your opponent.

I replyed because you posted 2 pictures of other cars going through that corner as if proving that the OP had taken the best line as well. But none did. The best - and fastest - line there will take you to the curb (2 wheels completely it) or at least "kissing" the curb.

But lines are meaningless provided you leave 1 car's width. And the OP had more than that.

I think it was a racing incident that could have been avoided with more experienced drivers.

 

[Hallitrd]

You're fine, just honest mistake in my view.

SR down for the yellow one, or maybe both .

 

[Potato_Head]

Yeah, but this isn't DTM. I know many motorsports where contact like that at the rear wheel in a instant pit lane drive through. Not that that answers the question, but the questions isn't solved by referencing a single form of motorsport.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yeah, but this isn't DTM. I know many motorsports where contact like that at the rear wheel in a instant pit lane drive through. Not that that answers the question, but the questions isn't solved by referencing a single form of motorsport.

It isn't resolved by referencing any motorsport because this isn't motorsport, it's virtual motorsport. Situational awareness is completely different when you're staring at a rectangular box while sitting in a lounge chair and needs a specific set of rules governing all aspects of racing, including overtakes, corner rights, contact concessions, corner rights etc.

 

[Shottah072]

The Beetle had 2/3 of the track at the point of impact, the BMW 1/3 of the track. To any reasonable person that's more than enough space.

I am not sure why you are deviding the track and assigning parts of it to drivers. Either way it is not important because a cars width of space is enough space. And anything more then a cars width is more then enough space. No need to devide the track.

All that was left for the BMW was about a car width and the curbing. I don't think it's even remotely reasonable to say that the OP should be even closer to the edge of the track at that point to absolve themselves of responsibility.

And this is where you continue to get it wrong. Why is it not reasonable to say that ? You say it yourself, there was OP, then there was a cars width and then there was curbs. All you should expect to get in terms of space is a cars width because that is enough space. So OP had double that + the curb at point of impact. So it is totally reasonable to say that. If not then how many meters do you think he can be away of the track edge before it gets reasonable to say that ? The track edge is where both drivers naturaly want to be and every centimeter he stays away from it he is obstructing himself but also his opponent on the inside of a good exit.

Here are the two cars that proceed through the corner after the OP and their position, running alone, is the same as the OPs in one case, and even closer to the inside of the track in the other.

Again not sure what you are trying to say or prove here. Like zzz_pt said they are both not taking the normal fast line here where u exit with 2 wheels very near or on the curb. Maybe they slowed down a bit because of the chaos of a spun car and 2 guys battling hard infront of them. Maybe they are just not fast drivers, who knows.

You are using a set of rules I'm not familiar with, nor subscribe to, when it comes to online racing. The GTP OLR specifically prohibits squeezing someone to the outside line:

I am a sim racer. I race by racing rules, not some GTP made up rules. This is not a league race or a organised event it is a public lobby. General race rules apply.

If you have a set of rules that allows you to squeeze people to the edge of the track and requires a driver on the outside to go all the way to the curbing, and it provides for good clean online racing, I'd really like to see them.

You focusing to much on the squeezing part i think. As if they are trying to force you wide, or over a curb to slow you down. They are just trying to get a good exit themselves by using as much track as they can while still giving enough space for another car. It is what is to be expected when you are on the outside. As long as they give that cars width of space on exit and the driver on the outside uses that cars width of space on exit then there is no problem and you get good clean online racing thats just like the real thing. You dont need special rules, you just need drivers that can drive clean under normal rules and are able to both give and take that space. The rectangular box lounge chair thing is no excuse cause i know there are plenty of online drivers that can drive like this just fine.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am not sure why you are deviding the track and assigning parts of it to drivers. Either way it is not important because a cars width of space is enough space. And anything more then a cars width is more then enough space. No need to devide the track.

For reference.

And this is where you continue to get it wrong. Why is it not reasonable to say that ? You say it yourself, there was OP, then there was a cars width and then there was curbs. All you should expect to get in terms of space is a cars width because that is enough space. So OP had double that + the curb at point of impact. So it is totally reasonable to say that. If not then how many meters do you think he can be away of the track edge before it gets reasonable to say that ? The track edge is where both drivers naturaly want to be and every centimeter he stays away from it he is obstructing himself but also his opponent on the inside of a good exit.

So if I'm wrong, tell me why it's unreasonable.

Again not sure what you are trying to say or prove here. Like zzz_pt said they are both not taking the normal fast line here where u exit with 2 wheels very near or on the curb. Maybe they slowed down a bit because of the chaos of a spun car and 2 guys battling hard infront of them. Maybe they are just not fast drivers, who knows.

It was suggested that there was a normal or expected line through the corner. The two drivers behind show that not everyone takes that line so therefore it possibly isn't normal or expected. It's not really relevant but I thought I thought I'd point it out anyway.

I am a sim racer. I race by racing rules, not some GTP made up rules. This is not a league race or a organised event it is a public lobby. General race rules apply.

I quote rules because I have a set of rules that I race by, specifically made for sim racing, that I know in practice leads to good, clean racing. Please provide a link and quote the relevant sections that you are referring to in your "general racing rules". I'd love to see them. Sounds like you're just making things up as you go along quite honestly.

You focusing to much on the squeezing part i think. As if they are trying to force you wide, or over a curb to slow you down. They are just trying to get a good exit themselves by using as much track as they can while still giving enough space for another car. It is what is to be expected when you are on the outside. As long as they give that cars width of space on exit and the driver on the outside uses that cars width of space on exit then there is no problem and you get good clean online racing thats just like the real thing. You dont need special rules, you just need drivers that can drive clean under normal rules and are able to both give and take that space. The rectangular box lounge chair thing is no excuse cause i know there are plenty of online drivers that can drive like this just fine.

I'm not focusing on the squeezing. I'm responding to someone who said that the Beetle could have squeezed the BMW to the outside of the track but they didn't. Again, can you quote me the relevant parts of your "general racing rules" that talk about squeezing? My rules don't allow it and for good reason. Real life drivers have much more spatial awareness and better audio clues to determine where everyone is on the track. This doesn't exist in a racing sim and thus my rules are specific in this regard and I quoted them.

How do we differentiate between special rules and normal rules? I'm really looking forward to the single set of rules that you are using for reference so we can see all your normal rules. Especially looking forward to the part that says you only need drivers that drive clean under normal rules and what the definition of that is along with giving and taking space.

 

[Imari]

It isn't resolved by referencing any motorsport because this isn't motorsport, it's virtual motorsport. Situational awareness is completely different when you're staring at a rectangular box while sitting in a lounge chair and needs a specific set of rules governing all aspects of racing, including overtakes, corner rights, contact concessions, corner rights etc.

And those rules don't actually exist for GTS. You're referencing a set of "house rules" as if they were somehow binding. The closest thing to "rules" we have is what the game does and does not allow, and what it punishes you for.

Referencing other forms of motorsport seems fine, because while this may be virtual it's still a virtual motorsport.

 

[Johnnypenso]

And those rules don't actually exist for GTS. You're referencing a set of "house rules" as if they were somehow binding. The closest thing to "rules" we have is what the game does and does not allow, and what it punishes you for.

Referencing other forms of motorsport seems fine, because while this may be virtual it's still a virtual motorsport.

Real motorsport rules are based in part on conditions which do not exist in virtual racing, that is, situational awareness. The lack of rear view mirrors, lack of detailed sound feedback for many gamers, limited visibility, and many other things combine to require a different set of rules as necessary for clean competitive online racing. Anyone can quote whatever set of rules they like. I'm quoting mine, I don't see anyone else quoting any rules I just see a lot of vague and sometimes contradictory suggestions that seem to be made up to fit the particular situation and have no logical basis for future application.

 

[Shottah072]

So if I'm wrong, tell me why it's unreasonable.

Cant you read ? I just explained why, read it again please?

It was suggested that there was a normal or expected line through the corner. The two drivers behind show that not everyone takes that line so therefore it possibly isn't normal or expected. It's not really relevant but I thought I thought I'd point it out anyway.

You are right, how these two took that corner, in this one chaotic scenario is irrelevant. There is however a fastest line trough that corner and it does take you to the outside and near or onto the curbs. Watch all top 10 laps and see them all take that line. The fastest line is usually considered the normal racing line.

I quote rules because I have a set of rules that I race by, specifically made for sim racing, that I know in practice leads to good, clean racing. Please provide a link and quote the relevant sections that you are referring to in your "general racing rules". I'd love to see them. Sounds like you're just making things up as you go along quite honestly.

So you are racing by rules that are made up for GTP and then blame me of making up the general racing rules ?These are general racing rules most FIA racers, events and stewards obey to. As someone who apparently is big into following rules to their letters i am suprised you didnt know that these rules arent stated anywhere specifically in FIA regulations but are long established racing norms. FIA dont mention much in there regulations about two cars going side by side trough a corner other then they must obey to track limits. But FIA go by and penalize accordangly to these long established racing norms who are cosidered to be generally know, but unfortunately, as these topics show, are not that known at all, especially by the public or even fans. This article explains these general racing rules quite well, read it u you havent before: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/

I'm not focusing on the squeezing. I'm responding to someone who said that the Beetle could have squeezed the BMW to the outside of the track but they didn't. Again, can you quote me the relevant parts of your "general racing rules" that talk about squeezing? My rules don't allow it and for good reason. Real life drivers have much more spatial awareness and better audio clues to determine where everyone is on the track. This doesn't exist in a racing sim and thus my rules are specific in this regard and I quoted them.

Like said before FIA rules dont mention these things but general racing rules, the FIA obeys to and apply's and are formed after a long history of presedence set in FIA events, are as followed. Quoted from the article about general race rules:
"If the driver going around the outside is not sufficiently far ahead to take the racing line on apex, they can continue on an outside line. In this case, a potential dispute arises at corner exit. The driver on the outside naturally wants to continue their trajectory along the outside, while the driver on the inside wants to take a quicker straighter line by running out to the edge of the track. Who owns that piece of track on corner exit? Who is to blame in the event of a collision there?

The guiding principle is that the driver on the outside should be at least level (front axle in line with front axle) with the driver on the inside to have a claim to the racing line on corner exit. Depending on the type of corner and the cars involved, either the outside or inside line may be quicker through the corner, meaning the driver on the outside may gain or lose ground from corner entry to corner exit. It is relative positions of the cars at exit — not at entry or apex — that is therefore crucial in judging these cases.

If the driver on the inside is behind at corner exit, they must leave space for the driver on the outside.

If the driver on the inside is ahead at corner exit, it is the duty of the driver on the outside to back out or take evasive action to avoid a collision.

In this case, the driver on the inside is free to drift out towards the outside on exit. While they are expected to approximately follow the racing line — but not exactly, since they enter the corner on a tighter trajectory to a normal racing line — they have some freedom in selecting how aggressively they close out the other driver."

Real motorsport rules are based in part on conditions which do not exist in virtual racing, that is, situational awareness. The lack of rear view mirrors, lack of detailed sound feedback for many gamers, limited visibility, and many other things combine to require a different set of rules as necessary for clean competitive online racing. Anyone can quote whatever set of rules they like. I'm quoting mine, I don't see anyone else quoting any rules I just see a lot of vague and sometimes contradictory suggestions that seem to be made up to fit the particular situation and have no logical basis for future application.

Now you are just looking for a excuse to enforce your own (or GTP's) made up rules for online racing. Like i said before the rectangular box and lounge chair excuse you keep using is no real excuse as i raced hundreds of people just fine by both sticking to the general race rules and norms. The situal awarenes problem gets canceled out in most sims by adding aids like radar or spotters. It isnt even a problem to begin with when both drivers give and take that cars width of space they dont even need to see eachother to navigate the corner safely, they only need to know a car is there. And with a virtual mirror like in bumper view and aids such as radar or indicators i could argue situal awareness is just as good or maybe even better in a sim as you dont even need to tilt your head or look away from the road to see what is going on behind.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I have been playing this game for 2 1/2 months now. I have been an avid motorsports fan for nearly a half of a century and have a pretty good understanding of the overall rules of what is and is not considered correct and proper behavior as far as real life motorsports are concerned.

But I have come to realize that although we have many that play this game trying to race in accordance with real world rules we have many that do not whether that be from choice, ignorance of the rules, taking a Nascar mentality or just from playing other games where forcing your way through is normal really makes no difference. We have to race in the environment and the race with what racers the game places us with if we want to race in the on line Sport mode.

I try to race clean and within the general accepted motorsport rules but that does not mean I am always mistake free or will not accidentally bump or wreck another car from such mistake. I do not intentionally bump or wreck other cars to advance my position.

I will say though that since playing this game I have changed and will race the same as I am being raced. If a racer is using contact to try to push me off my line I will fight back, if they nudged me off line to gain a position and I catch back up to them I will try to pass them cleanly but if they try to bump me off line again I have no problem sending their ass into the wall for bring a prick.

Some will say that is not racing clean but I was raised you do not instigate trouble but you do not run from it and stand up for yourself. I have started doing the same within the racing game and at least I feel like I am defending my right to race and not concede a position just because someone else is playing the part of the bully.

At the end of the day we have to understand that it is a game and letting it get us mad or upset defeats the purpose of why most of us play. I have found that regardless of how any individual race turns out it does not change my life or make the world a better place so who really cares.

Play the game for enjoyment, when it reaches the point that the stress and anger over ride the fun step away for a bit or for good if need be. It is only a game!

 

[baldgye]

Real motorsport rules are based in part on conditions which do not exist in virtual racing, that is, situational awareness. The lack of rear view mirrors, lack of detailed sound feedback for many gamers, limited visibility, and many other things combine to require a different set of rules as necessary for clean competitive online racing. Anyone can quote whatever set of rules they like. I'm quoting mine, I don't see anyone else quoting any rules I just see a lot of vague and sometimes contradictory suggestions that seem to be made up to fit the particular situation and have no logical basis for future application.

Not really though.
You have at least one wing mirror and a rear view mirror, aswell as a radar and proximity sensors.

I don’t know the rules you keep bringing up, but I think that F1 rules make the most sense because contact is illegal and usually results in a DNF. This is important because GT Sport has no mechanical damage in Sport mode, making GT car rules not really applicable.

I’ve been in the situation of both drivers in this incident at various corners, Brands especially. What you have to do is be aware of your surroundings and act accordingly. If you choose to not use the aids afforded you, then contact is inevitable.

Though this thread has gone in an interesting direction, which rules we follow and how we apply those rules. Another failing of GT Sport it seems is to have no clear cut rule set that it uses. All we see are ambiguous penalties

 

[Shottah072]

Please provide a link and quote the relevant sections that you are referring to in your "general racing rules". I'd love to see them. Sounds like you're just making things up as you go along quite honestly.

Ive done what you asked of me, any comments on it or are you just gonna ignore what i wrote ?