Update 1.03 - What exactly happened to the MR cars?

[LS Chiou]

I drove Diablo GT last night mainly for testing its brake without ABS. With RH and standard brake, it can take 8/8 bias setting in Apricot Hill.

100% depth of brake pedal can be used in straight line within a certain amount of time (short, as you might imagine). It'd turn orange with tire sound change. At that moment, lifting a bit before it turns red and locked is doable and actually enjoyable. In the bends, inside tires would be locked up much easier and it needs more careful handle for sure. (I need very large % of lock ratio on LSD to stabilize the waggy tail, though.)

Overall a very powerful and nervous beast but also very sensitive with high adjustability by throttle and brake. I found it'd better to keep the steering as little as possible and steer it largely by throttle and brake. Pedal work is very busy driving this car. Or, it drives me more than I drive it, actually. But it's rewarding as the interactions between us are intense.

And then I switched to Cizeta V16T, what a dumb ass by comparison. When oversteer begins, it just keeps that trend stubbornly. So inert, so hard to change that stance. Not much time spent on it, maybe there're some ways to set it up better, or some other skills to deal with it. I'll try more.

Many mentioned the difficult Audi R8 LMS. I remember I only drove it once or twice (before the 1.03 update) and quit trying very quickly. What an oversteer monster! OK, that'll be my next project.

 

[chuyler1]

On the lower end of the power scale, I took the '86 Toyota MR-2 out for a spin at Suzuka, all aids off except ABS=1. The car was undrivable. This was my go-to car in GT5 for as many races I could get it to win. The car handled fine, a little twitch and easy to rotate, but never uncontrollable. In GT6 this car is ruined, I gradually upgraded all the way to SS tires and it never felt right.

 

[LS Chiou]

Tried Audi R8 LMS last night, a real beast.

Racing hard tire, TCS/ABS=0, very nervous tail.

After spun out (and swapped ends) many many times, I found it needs very high % of lock ratio on LSD in deceleration. (I set it 10/40/60, or the likes.) Also, the brake bias at rear has to be turned down as possible. (I use 4/0 in Apricot Hill and 3/1 in Ascari.) And, stiffening the front / softening the rear, more toe-in and negative camber at the rear all help a bit, too.

It's waggy tail is the type of lift-off oversteer - tail stepping out when you lift the throttle or step on the brake. OTOH, in most cases, it stays pretty stable with very high rear traction when you're on the gas in mid turn or at the exit of bends. It seems reasonable -- weight transfer to the front when decelerating, makes the tail float, but it's too exaggerated and too abrupt at the transition.

It's like the rear half of the car is on very low gravity, but still has very high inertia by its mass. So much so the tail can't sit on ground firmly but with massive tendency to move side to side. (Or, would it be a bug that's similar to the costumed wheel with narrower rear tire prior to the 1.03 update? Or it's a new found bug that's locked to a slippery rear tire no matter what you think you've chosen?)

So, driving this car, it has to be on the gas as much and as long as you can. But inevitably there're always bends ahead forcing us to slow down. Whenever you have to brake, do it early, short, and gentle as possible, and back on the gas (in proper amount) immediately! Or, you may also overlap the throttle and brake somewhat. Full braking can be used only in the dead straight briefly. By such principles, driving this beast is not impossible. Its cornering limit is pretty high, and, if careful enough, can do late brake overtaking, too.

Problem is, it needs very precise and consistent handling to stay on track long enough. When not in 100% concentration, you might get in touch with opponents, or step into curb too much. Those are deadly dangerous to this car. It has almost zero tolerance to those imperfections of handling. But you know how hard it is to keep 100% "clean" in any race.

(Oh, when you spun this beast, it tends to swap ends. Upon your struggle of pulling it back to track, the following opponents would take turns smashing your face into the fence again, and again. Anyway, this car seems hate its nose in the front. I wonder if it'd be better driving this car backward. LOL ! )

Another problem is, the exhaust is too loud. Or the proportion with tire sound is not right to me. I rely very much on the tire scream to judge the condition of grips. Loud exhaust makes the tire sounds hard to recognize. Without this crucial clue, I feel very busy and nervous in controlling this utterly unstable car.

In 15min Apricot Hill, I managed to get the lead in the final lap. But that Mclaren F1 GTR was just waiting for me previously and caught up with ease (it's so fast in the straight!). Eventually I failed to block it and only got second place. In Ascari, I just spun out too much and not finished. Exhausted!

Later I brought up Diablo GT2 race car, similar to GT but feels more stable. What a breeze, much nicer to drive in comparison. It has a larger window of operation, more tolerable to various inputs but also sensitive and effective to corrections.

And then I tried Jaguar XJ220, so stable, not like other tail happy MR. It can do without ABS in the rain. I only got third in the Rain Master Sarthe, but I'm fine with it, since it's well under powered and I was really tired then.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Tried Audi R8 LMS last night, a real beast.

Racing hard tire, TCS/ABS=0, very nervous tail.

After spun out (and swapped ends) many many times, I found it needs very high % of lock ratio on LSD in deceleration. (I set it 10/40/60, or the likes.) Also, the brake bias at rear has to be turned down as possible. (I use 4/0 in Apricot Hill and 3/1 in Ascari.) And, stiffening the front / softening the rear, more toe-in and negative camber at the rear all help a bit, too.

It's waggy tail is the type of lift-off oversteer - tail stepping out when you lift the throttle or step on the brake. OTOH, in most cases, it stays pretty stable with very high rear traction when you're on the gas in mid turn or at the exit of bends. It seems reasonable -- weight transfer to the front when decelerating, makes the tail float, but it's too exaggerated and too abrupt at the transition.

It's like the rear half of the car is on very low gravity, but still has very high inertia by its mass. So much so the tail can't sit on ground firmly but with massive tendency to move side to side. (Or, would it be a bug that's similar to the costumed wheel with narrower rear tire prior to the 1.03 update? Or it's a new found bug that's locked to a slippery rear tire no matter what you think you've chosen?)

So, driving this car, it has to be on the gas as much and as long as you can. But inevitably there're always bends ahead forcing us to slow down. Whenever you have to brake, do it early, short, and gentle as possible, and back on the gas (in proper amount) immediately! Or, you may also overlap the throttle and brake somewhat. Full braking can be used only in the dead straight briefly. By such principles, driving this beast is not impossible. Its cornering limit is pretty high, and, if careful enough, can do late brake overtaking, too.

Problem is, it needs very precise and consistent handling to stay on track long enough. When not in 100% concentration, you might get in touch with opponents, or step into curb too much. Those are deadly dangerous to this car. It has almost zero tolerance to those imperfections of handling. But you know how hard it is to keep 100% "clean" in any race.

(Oh, when you spun this beast, it tends to swap ends. Upon your struggle of pulling it back to track, the following opponents would take turns smashing your face into the fence again, and again. Anyway, this car seems hate its nose in the front. I wonder if it'd be better driving this car backward. LOL ! )

Another problem is, the exhaust is too loud. Or the proportion with tire sound is not right to me. I rely very much on the tire scream to judge the condition of grips. Loud exhaust makes the tire sounds hard to recognize. Without this crucial clue, I feel very busy and nervous in controlling this utterly unstable car.

In 15min Apricot Hill, I managed to get the lead in the final lap. But that Mclaren F1 GTR was just waiting for me previously and caught up with ease (it's so fast in the straight!). Eventually I failed to block it and only got second place. In Ascari, I just spun out too much and not finished. Exhausted!

Later I brought up Diablo GT2 race car, similar to GT but feels more stable. What a breeze, much nicer to drive in comparison. It has a larger window of operation, more tolerable to various inputs but also sensitive and effective to corrections.

And then I tried Jaguar XJ220, so stable, not like other tail happy MR. It can do without ABS in the rain. I only got third in the Rain Master Sarthe, but I'm fine with it, since it's well under powered and I was really tired then.

Try my tune linked on my sig, on page 3, there's also a post about top speed issue of the car swaying and I made a detailed explanation of the reason it happens and a simple fix that keeps it's top speed and stability.

 

[LS Chiou]

Thanks.

Your setup is eye-popping and beyond my understanding in many aspects. Will do more experiments to see for myself.

Nice driving here. I see the brake is seldom used. 👍

 

[LS Chiou]

@Ridox2JZGTE,

I tried some parameters of your setup. It's amazing that this difficult R8 LMS is largely tamed ! Thanks a lot.

Among them, I think the most crucial factor is the large initial lock % on LSD.

I suddenly realize IT IS the transition between gas and lift (acceleration and deceleration). In the default 10/40/20, when slowing down before turn-in, throttle is lifted, the lock ratio between 2 rear tire jumps from 40 to 10 then to 20. In my previous setting (15/40/60 to be exact), it jumps from 40 to 16 then to 60. Such a severe fluctuation jeopardizes the rear end stability. On those already sensitive cars like race cars or super cars, it's much more pronounced. I settle on 35/35/50 eventually.

I'm also surprised that the stiff rear suspension with less camber and toe have relatively small effects to the front/rear balance. Or, no wonder they offer little help, or even mess things up.

The major difference in my tune is the brake bias. 8 is obvious too high for me, because I use the whole travel of brake pedal. I settle on 4/4.

According to this principle, there's hope to other tail happy MR cars all of a sudden! I tried this high initial lock on Ferrari F40 and it works very well, too.

Overall, R8 LMS is a race car which is aiming at speed. It has the power for straight line and grip for high cornering limit, but once the limit is reached, it'd let go suddenly. My previous complain about its loud exhaust still applies, which is one of the factors make it hard to deal with the limit. So, fast and capable as it is, it's still need higher concentration and precision to drive it well. And once it passes the limit, there's little chance to get it back. Corrections are not very effective on this car.

By comparison, the road cars like F40 (and Diablo GT etc) have a larger window of limit. I got larger operating range around their limits. Plus the more friendly proportion of tire sound is there for judging grip, I feel they are more enjoyable overall.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

@Ridox2JZGTE,

I tried some parameters of your setup. It's amazing that this difficult R8 LMS is largely tamed ! Thanks a lot.

Among them, I think the most crucial factor is the large initial lock % on LSD.

I suddenly realize IT IS the transition between gas and lift (acceleration and deceleration). In the default 10/40/20, when slowing down before turn-in, throttle is lifted, the lock ratio between 2 rear tire jumps from 40 to 10 then to 20. In my previous setting (15/40/60 to be exact), it jumps from 40 to 16 then to 60. Such a severe fluctuation jeopardizes the rear end stability. On those already sensitive cars like race cars or super cars, it's much more pronounced. I settle on 35/35/50 eventually.

I'm also surprised that the stiff rear suspension with less camber and toe have relatively small effects to the front/rear balance. Or, no wonder they offer little help, or even mess things up.

The major difference in my tune is the brake bias. 8 is obvious too high for me, because I use the whole travel of brake pedal. I settle on 4/4.

According to this principle, there's hope to other tail happy MR cars all of a sudden! I tried this high initial lock on Ferrari F40 and it works very well, too.

Overall, R8 LMS is a race car which is aiming at speed. It has the power for straight line and grip for high cornering limit, but once the limit is reached, it'd let go suddenly. My previous complain about its loud exhaust still applies, which is one of the factors make it hard to deal with the limit. So, fast and capable as it is, it's still need higher concentration and precision to drive it well. And once it passes the limit, there's little chance to get it back. Corrections are not very effective on this car.

By comparison, the road cars like F40 (and Diablo GT etc) have a larger window of limit. I got larger operating range around their limits. Plus the more friendly proportion of tire sound is there for judging grip, I feel they are more enjoyable overall.

Thanks Chiou Glad the tune could help, the initial ( torque preload ) on LSD hugely affect car handling ( transition when coasing, braking and accelerating ), running optimized initial will make sure the LSD lock when it matters most while not hampering the maneuverability and stability.

I am tuning BMW Z4 GT3 right now, so far my impression is the car much easier to drive than the R8 LMS. Running 600PP ( oil change only ), stock gearing, only fine tune the LSD and suspension, able to post 1:22s at Brands Hatch GP on Racing Hard, a bit faster than the R8 LMS Phoenix on same PP. Will post the tune on my garage as bonus tune as well. The initial value of LSD in this car also crucial, there's a sweet spot where it stays neutral most of the time - increasing it will make it understeer but safer, and decreasing it to a point it will become loose and prone to oversteer. ( the accel and braking stays constant )

 

[Geopan973]

Last night I took my newly acquired Aventador for an on-line spin on the Ring. The particular car was a favorite of mine on GT5, not the fastest I used but one which I found a joy in driving it.

I got really disappointed after a few laps. The lift-off over-steer was so bad, that I did not a single lap without at least one spin out. I started with racing hards and went up to racing softs, but the only way I could keep the car in the track was by driving with extreme caution and ... slowly.

The question is not if the car is "broken", I know I am not a good driver since I do not have a lot of time to practice-practice-practice. What puzzles me is which version of the car was "correct", the GT5 or the GT6 one?

I distinctively remember Richard Hammond having a go with the Aventador when it was introduced some years ago, praising performance and handling, but finding it a little "lacking" in comparison wit the older models, when the Diablos and the Murcielagos were to be driven with respect, lest they turned around and bit your head off!

Does anyone have an experience with said car? What is the truth? If I had such a beast as my own car in real life (wishful thinking) would I have been able to steer with it, or would I be condemned to step on the right pedal (or even the left one) only on a straight line?

 

[Woodski_427]

Last night I took my newly acquired Aventador for an on-line spin on the Ring. The particular car was a favorite of mine on GT5, not the fastest I used but one which I found a joy in driving it.

I got really disappointed after a few laps. The lift-off over-steer was so bad, that I did not a single lap without at least one spin out. I started with racing hards and went up to racing softs, but the only way I could keep the car in the track was by driving with extreme caution and ... slowly.

The question is not if the car is "broken", I know I am not a good driver since I do not have a lot of time to practice-practice-practice. What puzzles me is which version of the car was "correct", the GT5 or the GT6 one?

I distinctively remember Richard Hammond having a go with the Aventador when it was introduced some years ago, praising performance and handling, but finding it a little "lacking" in comparison wit the older models, when the Diablos and the Murcielagos were to be driven with respect, lest they turned around and bit your head off!

Does anyone have an experience with said car? What is the truth? If I had such a beast as my own car in real life (wishful thinking) would I have been able to steer with it, or would I be condemned to step on the right pedal (or even the left one) only on a straight line?

It may seem perverse, but try sports tyres. Race tyres will reduce your time and ability to correct.

The improved tyre and physics modelling in GT6 means that you generally can't just throw racing tyres on a car and expect it to perform. You will more than likely need to tune the suspension and diff to get decent results from racing tyres.

Yes, a lot of cars are a bit tedious in this game and I'm not great with MR cars myself - they do require a certain driving style, as I'm sure has been discussed to death, and take some getting used to for me. Also, try a different track to get used to the car. Unless you are really clean and confident on the Nordschleife, it's probably not the best place to start with an awkward car 👍

 

[Griffith500]

...
Unless you are really clean and confident on the Nordschleife, it's probably not the best place to start with an awkward car 👍

I decided to take the Cizeta out for its first spin on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Turned out to be several spins. Once you get the feel for the rate of turn in (and the sheer grunt of the engines), it's workable, but yeah getting used to it on a different track first would have been advisable!

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

I decided to take the Cizeta out for its first spin on the Nürburgring Nordschleife. Turned out to be several spins. Once you get the feel for the rate of turn in (and the sheer grunt of the engines), it's workable, but yeah getting used to it on a different track first would have been advisable!

I may have good news for you, I built a 550PP tune for the Cizeta V16T that works from comfort soft to racing hard, using real world tuning approach No ride height exploit, stock weight distribution It did low 2 minutes at Silverstone GP on RH and 55s at Tsukuba.

CIZETA-MORODER V16T '94 550PP Track Monster 521HP 550PP Comfort Soft to Racing Hard

 

[Griffith500]

I may have good news for you, I built a 550PP tune for the Cizeta V16T that works from comfort soft to racing hard, using real world tuning approach No ride height exploit, stock weight distribution It did low 2 minutes at Silverstone GP on RH and 55s at Tsukuba.

CIZETA-MORODER V16T '94 550PP Track Monster 521HP 550PP Comfort Soft to Racing Hard

Thanks, but I consider tuning cheating.
I'll have a look, though, to get an idea of these real world tuning techniques, since I tend to do it "intuitively".

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Thanks, but I consider tuning cheating.
I'll have a look, though, to get an idea of these real world tuning techniques, since I tend to do it "intuitively".

You need to drive my Ayrton Senna tribute NSX real world setup pair, I tuned them to make them drive like the real one ( much closer ) than stock GT6 NSX can ever do with incorrect weight distribution etc. Stock cars in GT6 are not really stock, they are placeholder tune with most of the spring rate and some of the weight distribution are wrong, wrong tires fitted on all of them, generic damper, ARB that looks like all 1, zero camber on most of them and the toes ... I talked too much

I am sure you will find the Cizeta I tuned drives like you would expect from an Italian MR Super Exotics, wild but enjoyable.