US Ambassador killed in Libya

[Sanji Himura]

Yeah, he should probably call first to make sure whatever he has to say is worth talking about. I'm envisioning a US government that is just friendly enough with other nations to allow travel and trade, and nothing more. No military alliances or international organizations or peacekeeping missions or disaster aid. Sorry, but we've got to fix our own problems before we try to fix everybody else's.

Problem is that the theory of "mutually assured destruction" will make a mess economically unless the status quo is observed. Sorry, but I don't see us willing to pull the plug on ourselves if we cut off aid to every other country around the globe.

That isn't saying that your point doesn't have merit, but it has been way too late since World War I.

 

[Dotini]

That's not true. Every time that you insult Mohammed in the Middle East, in most countries, that is a death sentence.

The website Jihad watch had a interesting piece a week ago about a girl with down syndrome who was caught with a backpack full of Koran pages in Pakistan and was going to be charged under their Blasphemy laws, turns out that the local Shiek there planted those pages just to scare Christians out of the area.

The point is "by hook or crook", Islamists see the fact that there is no true religion but Islam, and will do anything just to see Christians and Jews suffer.

Giving suspected witches the flotation test is an almost charming example of Euro-American Christian extremism, almost a thousand years after Christianity became the official religion of Rome. Given enough historical time, the more recent religion of Islam may eventually become more tolerant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials_in_the_Early_Modern_period
While early trials fall still within the Late Medieval period, the peak of the witch hunt was during the period of the European wars of religion, peaking between about 1580 and 1630. The witch hunts declined in the early 18th century. In Great Britain, their end is marked by the Witchcraft Act of 1735. But sporadic witch-trials continued to be held during the second half of the 18th century, the last known dating to 1782,[2] though a prosecution was commenced in Tennessee as recently as 1833.[3] [4][5]

Over the entire duration of the phenomenon of some three centuries, an estimated total of 40,000 to 60,000 people were executed.[6]

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Scaff]

Well said

The UK is currently spending huge amounts of money on foreign aid while its own citizens go hungry and cold 👎

The UK spends about the same on overseas aid each year as drunks in Scotland cost the economy (roughly £5 billion each), which is in reality a very small sum and not the 'huge amounts claimed'. To put that into perspective the Navy fired 20 cruise missiles in four days during the fighting in Libya last year, that cost a billion for the 20 missiles alone.

The Olympics alone cost the UK £9 billion, £5 billion is not a lot of money given that roughly 13 million people live below the minimum income level in the UK, £5 billion would work out to be little more than a £1 a day to each of them. Tax evasion in the UK costs roughly £69 billion a year which would provide around £13 per day to each of them.

Personally I would rather hit tax evaders than the third world.

 

[cphbullet]

The UK spends about the same on overseas aid each year as drunks in Scotland cost the economy

Just checking, your from scotland right?

More people in the middle east need to learn about blogging and forums, people in the west find out about a film they don't like so they go online and complain, in the east someone gets killed over it:tdown:

 

[Keef]

Personally I would rather hit tax evaders than the third world.

I'd rather remove those 69 billion pounds worth of liabilities from the government budget instead of use even more government funds to prosecute and incarcerate people for finding clever ways to keep their property from being stolen.

 

[Keef]

US officials may have had credible information that attacks were imminent 48 hours before they occurred. To boot, confidential documents have gone missing, presumed stolen by raiders of the Lybian compound.

Now, Britons, I call on you to tell me about this "Independent" news organization and how credible they are.

 

[Speedonator]

Not just Libya, but Egypt too.

Invading an embassy (US soil) and destroying a US flag should call for military action.

Lets see what Obama does.

Military intervention? Why? Stop meddling in other countries affairs and maybe there wouldnt be any bloodshed. America are already getting their asses well and trully kicked in Iraq and Afghanisan, keep beating the drums of war and USA will eventually destroy itself. Oh and if you think Obama pulls the strings..more fool you, he's just a puppet being controlled by his masters...same goes for every other 'president'

 

[Müle]

I'm envisioning a US government that is just friendly enough with other nations to allow travel and trade, and nothing more.

So basically, just a small step above North Korea?

 

[Barra333]

Yet another protest by the minority. When oh when will we see a protest from the majority, the silent majority that appease the minority of backward thinking.

Wasn’t that last year?

If American government associates weren't there in the first place then this would not have happened.

This. I see no reason why we even need a presence in these countries, or any countries for that matter.

yea, but then you have isolated your nationals in an unstable region of the world. Also it's a lot easier for Mr Cameron to speak to your ambassador over here than catch a plane (money, time C02. all that stuff) to either side of the pond.

Saying that, there is always skype.

On top of what gokartman said, the ‘presence’ in country Y (Libya here) is partially for the good of travelers from country X (USA in this case). If an American gets in trouble in Libya, the first place they call is the consulate to get bailed out. Frequently, some dumb Aussie backpacker will get busted on drug charges in Indonesia or Thailand, and the first thing that happens is a consular official meets with them.

Sorry, but we've got to fix our own problems before we try to fix everybody else's.

Well said

The UK is currently spending huge amounts of money on foreign aid while its own citizens go hungry and cold 👎

‘Hungry and cold’ in the UK is on a completely different level to hungry and cold (or hungry, diseased and dying) in many of places this aid goes. Are you complaining that western countries hand over buckets of money to poor countries that get hit by earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes too? Even some if the aid is going to places like Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq etc, it is targeted for the innocents who have had their house blown away by no fault of their own (see: extremist minority ****s it for the passive majority). I'm under no delusions that it all gets to the intended recipients in some of these places though.

 

[Keef]

So basically, just a small step above North Korea?

No. Rather, a large step from getting all the United Nations off our balls. All our governments need to grow some sovereignty and dandle it between their legs.

On top of what gokartman said, the ‘presence’ in country Y (Libya here) is partially for the good of travelers from country X (USA in this case). If an American gets in trouble in Libya, the first place they call is the consulate to get bailed out. Frequently, some dumb Aussie backpacker will get busted on drug charges in Indonesia or Thailand, and the first thing that happens is a consular official meets with them.

So what you're saying is that if a person commits a crime in another country there should be a method for them to weasel their way out of being punished by laws of the land in which they committed the crime?

 

[gokartman78]

No. Rather, a large step from getting all the United Nations off our balls. All our governments need to grow some sovereignty and dandle it between their legs.


So what you're saying is that if a person commits a crime in another country there should be a method for them to weasel their way out of being punished by laws of the land in which they committed the crime?

I think the trouble is getting robbed kinda thing. Not robbing

 

[Dotini]

After the former dictator was impaled and dragged around by a mob, Hillary Clinton gloated, "We came, we saw, he's dead." Now that her State Department Ambassador to Libya and revolution architect Chris Stevens is the one who's dead, a chicken has come home to roost.

(Note: not implying it was former regime loyalists that did it, more likely al-qaeda.)

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Quackjack]

Oh boy, this is looking bad now...

 

[Danoff]

If American government associates weren't there in the first place then this would not have happened.

Hard to argue with, but we were there, so now what? Doing nothing is a very bad idea.

I mean come Pupik, don't generalize.

Yea, we can't judge. Murderers are people too.

Put those Christians in the same places as those angry Muslims, and facing the same issues they have, and I'd bet they'd react the same way Pupik.

No, this is cultural and governmental, not situational.

After the former dictator was impaled and dragged around by a mob, Hillary Clinton gloated, "We came, we saw, he's dead." Now that her State Department Ambassador to Libya and revolution architect Chris Stevens is the one who's dead, a chicken has come home to roost.

Yea, we brought it on ourselves. Americans deserved to be murdered for what Hillary Clinton said (accurately). Wait, what?

 

[Dotini]

Yea, we brought it on ourselves. Americans deserved to be murdered for what Hillary Clinton said (accurately). Wait, what?

No, Dan, Americans do not deserve to be murdered for what Hillary said.
But is ironical that we have traded orchestrated the tyranny of the dictator for the tyranny of the mob. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Danoff]

No, Dan, Americans do not deserve to be murdered for what Hillary said.
But is ironical that we have traded orchestrated the tyranny of the dictator for the tyranny of the mob. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Let's say you're a cop. One day you get called to a convenience store that is being held up by some thug with a gun. You go in, defuse the situation, and arrest the guy.

The next day the same convenience store is being held up by a rival thug, who would never have robbed this convenience store until the thug you arrested was out of the way. This time when you go in to break up the robbery you get shot and the thug gets away.

Are you responsible for the second thug? Is it ironic that the 2nd thug robbed the store? Did you orchestrate the rise of thug number 2? Would it be appropriate for someone to say to you "live by the sword die by the sword"?

 

[Dotini]

Did you orchestrate the rise of thug number 2?

In the case of Libya, the US and the Western world had achieved some kind of workable relationship with the longstanding semi-secular dictator. We, the US and allies, then orchestrated his removal and replacement by thug #2, a so-far unruly mob of violent sectarians, jihadis, sheiks, tribalists, militias and brigades. The NTC (National Transition Council) is more a simulacrum than a government.

Respectfully,
Steve

 

[Danoff]

In the case of Libya, the US and the Western world had achieved some kind of workable relationship with the longstanding semi-secular dictator. We, the US and allies, then orchestrated his removal and replacement by thug #2, a so-far unruly mob of violent sectarians, jihadis, sheiks, tribalists, militias and brigades. The NTC (National Transition Council) is more a simulacrum than a government.

Any orchestration of the removal of thug #1 does not automatically confer culpability for thug #2.

 

[Keef]

Are you responsible for the second thug? Is it ironic that the 2nd thug robbed the store? Did you orchestrate the rise of thug number 2? Would it be appropriate for someone to say to you "live by the sword die by the sword"?

It is the police's business to uphold their sworn oath to bring wrongdoers to justice. Is it our military's and elected officials' business to uphold their sworn oath to decide who is in control of sovereign nations? I'm pretty sure they took an oath to protect the Constitution and defend this country, not go on the offensive when no threat exists.

In your example, the police did not lay justice on the first thug until after he'd committed the crime. In Dotini's example, basically the definition of our current foreign policy, we influenced the politics of a sovereign nation in a preemptive effort to minimize any future threat. It's commonly referred to as "meddling". It tends not to work. We've been doing it in the Middle East since 1953, if not earlier, and all its caused is rampant hatred and backlash.

 

[Danoff]

It is the police's business to uphold their sworn oath to bring wrongdoers to justice. Is it our military's and elected officials' business to uphold their sworn oath to decide who is in control of sovereign nations? I'm pretty sure they took an oath to protect the Constitution and defend this country, not go on the offensive when no threat exists.

In your example, the police did not lay justice on the first thug until after he'd committed the crime. In Dotini's example, basically the definition of our current foreign policy, we influenced the politics of a sovereign nation in a preemptive effort to minimize any future threat. It's commonly referred to as "meddling". It tends not to work. We've been doing it in the Middle East since 1953, if not earlier, and all its caused is rampant hatred and backlash.

Somehow I knew this point would not escape you.

Let's say you decide to meddle. Your sister is dating a guy who is abusing her. She wants to get married to him, but you convince her (meddling) that he's not the right guy for her and that she should dump him. After she dumps him, she then goes and dates a psychopath that kills her. Are you responsible for her death? Is psychopath guy on your hands?

Let's take this a step further:

You break into a grocery store and steal a loaf of bread (not just meddling, crime). On your way out of the grocery store someone sees you with the bread and shoots you dead to take it. Did you cause your own death? Did you deserve your fate? Are you responsible for the criminal's actions? After all, you were the one who broke the rules and stole the bread in the first place. You deserve what's coming to you.


No. You're not responsible actions and choices of the adults around you. You're responsible for theft of the bread, or your sister leaving an abusive boyfriend. Not murder.

 

[Keef]

No. You're not responsible actions and choices of the adults around you. You're responsible for theft of the bread, or your sister leaving an abusive boyfriend. Not murder.

I'll have to look through my quotes to see where I said our government was responsible for this backlash because I don't remember saying that. Did we invite it? Yes. Are we the direct cause? It could be argued, but not necessarily. What I mean by "invited" is that we opened up an opportunity for failure that didn't exist previously.

You know as well as I do that no man can be compelled to assist another for any reason. A lot of people do it because it's often a kind thing to do, but there's no moral obligation. Imagine yourself acting as negotiator when you see a lady being held at gunpoint. You don't have to help that person, but you do. The bad guy tells you to shut up and leave or he'll kill her. You ask him to calm down and think about this. Then he shoots and kills the person. Maybe he even shoots you too, then runs away.

When he is eventually caught it's discovered that he stole her purse - that's all he wanted. You, the passerby, didn't know that, and how could you. Had you let those two sovereign bodies settle the matter amongst themselves it might have turned out smoother, but instead you took a risk by meddling in others' business, took on a unnecessary task despite the opportunity for failure, and invited unknown and unintended consequences which were eventually realized by the end of your negotiation.

You should have simply walked away when the bad guy told you to and waited patiently for a safer opportunity to arrest him. What we should do on an international level is walk away and wait for a better time to serve justice instead of insisting that their business is ours when it most certainly isn't.

 

[Barra333]

So what you're saying is that if a person commits a crime in another country there should be a method for them to weasel their way out of being punished by laws of the land in which they committed the crime?

Absolutely not. The consulate should be there to ensure that their citizens are treated fairly. It annoys me when people expect to get weaseled out of a crime they commit in another country.

 

[Dennisch]

The Islamic nations should do something about radical Muslims. If they keep getting angry about stupid stuff like this, their dark ages will last for a very long time.

 

[Keef]

...their dark ages...

Hmm. Interesting observation there.

 

[Dennisch]

It isn't the brightest period for Muslims and Islam.

I watched the news the other day when they showed a couple of bomb attacks in Iraq. Seeing people losing family, friends and their business, it was the first time in my life that I actually felt sorry for the people living in those areas. How much must it suck when a simple walk across a market could cost you your life? Because one side of a religion has more power than the other? They believe in the same Allah. They read the same stupid fairy tale book. They (the people in power) should teach the people that religion isn't the most important thing in the world. It isn't worth dying for.

/rant.

 

[Ardius]

Sigh. and the circle continues. Extremists carry out violence in reaction/protest > opposition extremists use it as an example/proof of their own delusion and continue to antagonise > Extremists carry out more violence.

There are 3 idiots here. The idiot who made the film. The idiot who translated it. And the idiot who decided its an expression of "Western" ideology.

 

[Dennisch]

How about the idiots going nuts over a movie?

 

[Ardius]

An irrelevant point seeing as its happened now. The guy who made the film would have surely known it would happen. And hence he is a fricking moron for making it.
What good did it do making such a film? It has no artistic quality. Its a disgusting display of completely idiocy at a time when the world is quite tense over this subject matter.

And to blame it on the angry mob just ignores what caused the mob to get angry in the first place. Religion alone does not make people angry.

Personally I think the angry mob have every right to be angry. Nothing justifies violence and killing over it..but personally I think you're just as bad as the filmmaker if you really think the problem is religious extremists.

This is a much further-reaching problem that has been building up over some time. The biggest source of this problem has unfortunately been western media who have portrayed a certain religion in this negative light. Though said religion has been tarnished by extremists.

As I said, the circle goes on. And people on both sides seem oblivious that there is a circle and that it only leads to death.

Reminds me of the story between the Narn and the Centauri in Babylon 5 - each wanting to get revenge on each other so much that their story could only end in death for both and both refused to recognise the futility of their conflict. There is nothing to be gained and everything to be lost.

 

[Dennisch]

Religion alone does not make people angry.

Can't argue with that. Religion,the radical kind, is the spark that sets it all on fire.

 

[aadil717]

How about the idiots going nuts over a movie?

I don't think they're idiots for going nuts about the movie; but it's their actions afterwards that make them idiots.

I'm saddened to hear that more people have been killed in other US Embassies, even though they haven't done a damn thing but be American. There's not even an excuse for these killings, it's just plain wrong.
Protests should never involve killing innocent people - actually nothing should.

It's as if they presume that all Americans are the same - just like some people feel that all Muslims are the same (referring to the radical/crazy/violent type). 👎