US Soldier kills 16 civilians in Afghanistan-NOW WITH POLL

[ExigeEvan]

Secondly who declared Afghanistan a war zone? It was the US was it not? I don't remember the civilians of Afghanistan pleading for American help. This is the "war on terror" and Afghanistan's population never asked for that.

The Afghan population probably didn't ask for the world's leading terrorist organisation to be harboured there either, but it happened. Do 2 wrongs make a right, nope. Can an invasion be justified, yes.

Do you accept that foreign intervention is sometimes neccesary? Or do you berate American involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan and then wonder why they're not invading Somalia/Libya/Syria?

My example was that if a uniformed soldier, as was given in an example with a Chinese army base on American soil, was to do exactly as he did on American soil he would be in Guantamano Bay faster than you could blink and no matter what country in the world it was there is no way they were getting him back.

Only because of America's virtual monopoly on nuclear weapons and the money and power behind their armed forces would the country of that soldier not declare the entire US as a war zone and demand their soldier back home.

That's pure speculation, and rather abstract, and I completely disagree. I'm sure America would put pressure on them, but any ally has the right to go through their own court martial proceedings.

Because Afghanistan has no real organized military and no solid government means the US can claim the country is a war zone and this was an act of war... That is wrong. Last I checked the bedrooms of those families was NOT a war zone and children were not armed threats on American lives.?

No, Afghanistan is a war zone because there is still fighting. People are still being shot, people are still being blown up. Innocent civilians and soldiers.

He should be tried there and I don't give a crap how the military has or does operate. In my opinion he deserves to serve his time there and deserves to suffer whatever happens as a result.

To be clear I don't think it should change for one incident, it should change period. Acts of war are one thing, shooting up innocent family homes is not one of them. The war is not against Afghanistan its against terrorism, this was not an act of war.

For as long as we accept that members of the military act upon laws entirely separate to that of civilian law then you can't simply cut and chose which laws they correspond too.

Again, I stress, he was a soldier, on duty, in a war zone. If a soldier must follow civilian laws while on deployment and in a war zone then they would not be able to perform the task given to him in any context. If a soldier must follow civilian law then in many countries he wouldn't have a gun, certainly not an automatic one.

To apply civilian law you would have no prove they were no longer a soldier. How can a person wearing a military uniform, acting within the military and in a country 1000s of miles from home be proven to be a civilian?

 

[berty1979]

Poll added, I will be interested to see what people think. Sorry if I missed an option out.

 

[TouringDevotee]

I find this very interesting:

Soldiers asked to disarm during Leon Panetta speech in Afghanistan

 

[Dennisch]

The US needs to pull out before even more of this crap happens.

 

[grrlpurple]

Apparently the soldiers lawyer has stated that the soldier received a head injury during service in Iraq and that he did not want to be deployed to Afghanistan, and that his friend was injured there the day before the incident occurred.

Still, no excuses, just a thought that surely these things should have been considered by the on site 'brass'. My vote went to letting the Afghan authorities deal with him through their justice system, the crime did occur on Afghan soil.

 

[arora]

Apparently the soldiers lawyer has stated that the soldier received a head injury during service in Iraq and that he did not want to be deployed to Afghanistan, and that his friend was injured there the day before the incident occurred.

There have been documented cases of troops deployed who where not fit for duty, quite a few actually. Spread thin I guess. (off topic, also criminal elements allowed into service who otherwise would not be)

Still, no excuses, just a thought that surely these things should have been considered by the on site 'brass'. My vote went to letting the Afghan authorities deal with him through their justice system, the crime did occur on Afghan soil.

I believe all U.S. personnel in Afghanistan currently have immunity status, something that was yanked from the U.S. in Iraq, a key reason for withdrawal there imo.

 

[berty1979]

^
The military is such a huge operation that they can be very clumsy with their personnel. When I was awating a court marshal I was handed a loaded weapon and put on point guard (night shift). If it had been someone more sensitive they might have done something to themselves or even worse gone for a 'walk' into town.

 

[Crispy]

Now let's hope they don't evaluate him as crazy and send him to get well. Bring the execution squad out.

 

[nk4e]

Apparently he was drinking with his friends before the incident, though he didn't want to return for a 4th tour.
He is back on US soil.

 

[Sach]

If someone comes onto US soil and does this same thing, we would want to try them in our judicial system, even if it were a member of the Afghan government's military... so why are people voting that we should bring him back home and try him here for these crimes? They were committed on Afghan soil. Why shouldn't he be tried by their government?

 

[arora]

The calls to prosecute the suspect in an Afghan court - a highly unlikely prospect because American troops have immunity from prosecution in Afghanistan - echoed the debate about whether US service members should remain shielded from prosecution in Iraqi courts.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/wor...nds-mission/5fe1tEOA7IjFnkXPY7AH4K/story.html

This is why.

 

[nk4e]

Military officials are expected to transfer the staff sergeant to the United States later today after diplomatic outcry from the Kuwaitis, who were not told in advance that the soldier was being moved.
“When they learned about it, the Kuwaitis blew a gasket and wanted him out of there,” the official said.

From my first link.

 

[Sach]

What gives us the right to immunity in other countries, but not others in ours? UN laws?

 

[arora]

How ever those 'rules' are decided they should be adhered to until changed. I have no idea but suspect UN or one of those other coalition/treaty dealies.

 

[Zenith]

Now let's hope they don't evaluate him as crazy and send him to get well. Bring the execution squad out.

What good would come from that?

 

[eight6er]

If a foreigner murdered 16 people in my country, I'd expect him brought to justice here.

 

[zedextreme8177]

^ Exactly, just because he is from the US doesn't mean that he deserves any special treatment.

If a soldier who was supposed to be protecting us came into our house, shot everyone in my family, and my friends. I'd want him to be tried here in my country, not anywhere else.

A murderer will remain a murderer, no matter if he was insane or not. In this case, it's effectively a mass murder.

 

[Zenith]

Brought to justice and execution are two different things, especially when the person in question is not mentally sound.

 

[Grayfox]

I bet he will be dishonorably discharged.

And nothing else will happen.

 

[Sphinx]

You wouldnt throw him to the villagers then would you!
Its easy to make it sound personal but its not to me as I wasnt a victim, however I can still voice my opinion and that is he should be tried and punished by his own people.

I don't believe I made any comment about him being thrown to the villagers

The only problem I have with him being punished by his own people is that justice won't be done in the US, as seen time and time again in the past. It's a joke to try him in the US because even though they will be seen to go through the process of carrying out justice, which will go on for years, at the end of the day he will walk out a free man. I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Just a thought; If the guy just suddenly 'lost it', a moment of madness, then why didn't he go on his rampage within the compound where he was located instead of sneaking out, walking some distance, and then going from house to house to do his killing?

 

[berty1979]

It is entirely possible to lose it and still have a focus, he (I am guessing here) probably saw the source of his fear and hate as afgan civilians so went into town to do the horrible deed. This kind of thing was seen in Vietnam and similarities can be drawn between that and the conflict in Afghanistan.

 

[Keef]

An Afghan parliamentary investigation team has implicated up to 20 US troops in the massacre of 16 civilians in Kandahar early on Sunday morning. It contradicts NATO's account that insists one rogue soldier was behind the slaughter.

"If the international community does not play its role in punishing the perpetrators, the Wolesi Jirga [parliament] would declare foreign troops as occupying forces,” [investigator Hamizai Lali] said.

Copied from the Presidential Election thread.

 

[arora]

I agree with Jerry, we've seen it before. The problem in my eyes is it's not as isolated happening as we are lead to believe, there are far too many solders without the required charicter to serve.

Perhaps as they say, bs flows down hill, a real shame. I'll still stick to the rules though, imunity is imunity. Bring them home, if you say 'we are leaving' then leave, any death from that point forward is in vain.

 

[nk4e]

Copied from the Presidential Election thread.

Oh wow....Blowblack?

 

[ShortAznGuy]

Afghanistan: US sucks balls. You guys mistreat our citizens and your military is lame and stupid!

United States: Woah! That's just based on a fraction of us. Most of us are kind and urge for peace!

Afghanistan: Then why the **** are you here?!

United States: herp-a-derp

 

[Keef]

The hilarious thing is that they did exactly what we wanted them to do: Hold democratic elections.

The people voted for a government that wants us to gtfo.

 

[tpark103]

My heart goes out to all the family's effected by the tragic situation.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Copied from the Presidential Election thread.

There's no report of witnesses or evidence in the article. Except to state that they don't believe one man was capable of it hence there must have been more, in squad sizes, one at each village, so that's 20. Yeah, must have been 20. Ish.

But is it that impractical to think one guy with training, a rifle and unarmed women and children could have done it alone?

 

[Keef]

But is it that impractical to think one guy with training, a rifle and unarmed women and children could have done it alone?

Is it that impractical to think it was more than one guy?

The people who did the killing say it was only one crazed lunatic. The people who got killed say the people who did the killing are covering up what actually happened.

The guy who robbed the bank says he didn't do it. The bank that got robbed says he did.

Fact is, a bank got robbed, and I'm not about to believe what the guy in the mask tells me what happened.

 

[sumbrownkid]

He's pretty much a dead man if he were left in Afganistan. The base he was at would probably witness a local uprising or bombing attempt.

If he were a sent to Gitmo, I'm pretty sure his cell mate would do him in.

I have a feeling he'll do hard time. When was the last time the military executed one of their own?