US Taxpayers Pay Over $1,600 Per Prayer To Congressional Chaplains

[squadops]

Let's see, isn't gay marriage winning the race?

I think you pay for the whole package when it comes to your congressmen, maybe that is just me.

Well, war might be a bit of a stretch but I will say in general the hatred is beyond belief to me, what does it really matter?

I'm going to ask once again, what's up with the left wanting democracy and not religion when a vast majority of americans are religious?

That would certainly strike me as religion having been used to pass laws that violates the rights of others.

Religion being used to pass laws sure, but the laws they pass don't necessarily violate rights, well other than the fact a minority cannot hold office. We are a strange creature that is for sure.

I have to ask again, not ask you Scaff as I believe you realize we are a republic but to some others, what of the democracy aspect?

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well, war might be a bit of a stretch but I will say in general the hatred is beyond belief to me, what does it really matter?

I would wager that hate towards the non-religious has been multiple times more substantial over the years.

 

[Tornado]

Danoff is "the left"?

 

[Joey D]

Let's see, isn't gay marriage winning the race?

It wasn't up until what, two years ago? Also, plenty of states are still fighting it, remember Kim Davis? She was using her religion to push her agenda in a public office instead of just doing her job.

I think you pay for the whole package when it comes to your congressmen, maybe that is just me.

Yes, the whole package, prayer shouldn't be part of that package since it doesn't offer any benefit. If the Congressmen wants to pray, they are free to do so.

Well, war might be a bit of a stretch but I will say in general the hatred is beyond belief to me, what does it really matter?

I'm going to ask once again, what's up with the left wanting democracy and not religion when a vast majority of americans are religious?

Once again, I'm a theist, I don't really think there is any hate towards my beliefs outside a handful of vocal people on the Internet. In the real world, it doesn't really happen.

And this isn't a left vs. right thing. I'm not exactly the most right leaning person in the world but I wouldn't consider myself left leaning since I've vote Libertarian in the past few elections. It's basically a rights things and whether or not money should be spent on X.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Let's see, isn't gay marriage winning the race?

No.

Well, war might be a bit of a stretch but I will say in general the hatred is beyond belief to me, what does it really matter?

I see it more as people realising that ancient beliefs aren't always worth clinging blindly to.

I'm going to ask once again, what's up with the left wanting democracy and not religion when a vast majority of americans are religious?

I think that's more about people wanting god out of governance while leaving people the freedom to worship and believe as they see fit. You imply that you think atheism is an inherently left-wing trait but you're wrong.

 

[squadops]

I would wager that hate towards the non-religious has been multiple times more substantial over the years.

I disagree with that, maybe 100 years ago but not today.

Danoff is "the left"?

Who said that? Nothing specific towards the man but libertarians are not conservative in most areas, they are not left either.

Yes, the whole package, prayer shouldn't be part of that package since it doesn't offer any benefit. If the Congressmen wants to pray, they are free to do so.

I have to disagree with that, you don't hire 1/2 the man you hire the whole man.

 

[Joey D]

I have to disagree with that, you don't hire 1/2 the man you hire the whole man.

Just curious, do you have a job? Because there is no way the company I work for, which is government funded, hired the whole me.

 

[Scaff]

Religion being used to pass laws sure, but the laws they pass don't necessarily violate rights, well other than the fact a minority cannot hold office. We are a strange creature that is for sure.

Given that the non religious and in some states non Christian make up a sizable minority I don't think you can just sweep it under the carpet.

You asked for examples of Religion being used to pass laws to limit the rights of others and I provided a range of examples.

It wouldn't matter how small the group of 'others' is, these are examples of Religious laws limiting the rights of others.

As such don't attempt to move the goalposts or demand further examples, be honest enough to acknowledge you were wrong on this point.

 

[squadops]

I own and run a small business, we gross about 250k a year, what does that possibly matter? Government is different to me, we hire based on character or at least we should as that was the idea behind our representation to begin with.

What I am really saying is it doesn't matter the religion of a representative or lack thereof, I will never understand the strong desire to twist the constitution to disclude religious leaders. It's very simple to me, we shall not force religion on anyone, so far only Scaff has an argument that makes sense to me.

Once I saw the quotes I remembered that from my days in college, I don't think those laws are a good thing but I have to say from years of experience the U.S. usually votes for those of faith anyway, almost always. Tell me of a President we have had who did not proclaim a religion.

I'm agreeing with you Scaff, well sorta

I'm still waiting for someone to address the idea of democracy in a country with 70% christians.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm still waiting for someone to address the idea of democracy in a country with 70% christians.

70% of people who identify as christian. In the UK there's a similar number who'll write "C of E" on a form when prompted for their religion, but that figure's somewhat at odds with the 2% of people who regularly attend a christian service.

 

[squadops]

That doesn't really address my question but I will say there is way too much made out of it. So what if someone has religion, so what.

Your attempt to dismiss doesn't cut it here in the U.S. we are a true Christian nation for better or for worse. So, what would an atheist democratic supporter have to say when faced with the fact of that particular mob?

I know no one wants to answer.

 

[Joey D]

I own and run a small business, we gross about 250k a year, what does that possibly matter? Government is different to me, we hire based on character or at least we should as that was the idea behind our representation to begin with.

So would you (or do you) offer daily prayer for your staff that you pay for out of your own pocket? Also would you consider meeting the specific spiritual needs of your staff something you always do regardless of their beliefs?

Tell me of a President we have had who did not proclaim a religion.

Many of our earliest presidents and Founding Fathers weren't religious, but rather Deists.

I'm still waiting for someone to address the idea of democracy in a country with 70% christians.

America isn't really a democracy though, it's more of a republic than anything. So while yes the majority have a say, you also need to consider and protect the rights of the minority.

 

[squadops]

@Joey D You might have misunderstood me, I was speaking of our representatives in congress but I'll still respond, anyone under me can do whatever they please, very little rattles me. I pay for plenty of things, you have to if you want to succeed.

Deists sure, but I'll have to remind you of this.

Conscience is the most sacred of all property; other property depending in part on positive law, the exercise of that, being a natural and unalienable right. To guard a man’s house as his castle, to pay public and enforce private debts with the most exact faith, can give no title to invade a man’s conscience which is more sacred than his castle, or to withhold from it that debt of protection, for which the public faith is pledged, by the very nature and original conditions of the social pact.

And that is right, now all of the sudden we are not a democracy It's what I've been saying all along

 

[CodeRedR51]

I disagree with that, maybe 100 years ago but not today.

Non-theists are stabbed/hacked to death and beheaded on damn near a daily basis in the middle east. So I beg to differ.

 

[squadops]

In the U.S.?

 

[CodeRedR51]

In the U.S.?

That's irrelevant.

 

[squadops]

US Taxpayers Pay Over $1,600 Per Prayer To Congressional Chaplains

 

[CodeRedR51]

US Taxpayers Pay Over $1,600 Per Prayer To Congressional Chaplains

Your point? We've been slightly off topic for a couple pages now. I was responding to your post:

Well, war might be a bit of a stretch but I will say in general the hatred is beyond belief to me, what does it really matter?

and my point is that non-theists are subject to violent/deadly hate crimes by theists on a daily basis. Doesn't matter where it takes place.

 

[ukfan758]

I'm Christian, but I have to say, this is rediculous that we're paying for prayer of one religion in a government organization. I thought we had seperation of church and state?

 

[Johnnypenso]

The article said $3 million, how did that number suddenly increase 100x?

And you do realize that the vast majority of that money goes towards transportation and security details, right? In other words, anytime any president goes anywhere, similar expenses are going to be paid. So unless you are in fact advocating for no down time, then your point is moot.

$3 million per round, more than 100 rounds.

Yes, it's a gross misuse of tax dollar, whether it's $8, $80,000, $800,000, or $800,000,000,000. Waste is waste and every little bit wasted ends up being something that needs to be cut from legitimate programs.

You may pay $50 for a round of golf, but you also don't have a full time security detail that goes with you and a private 747 that's fully staffed and has to pay landing fees at whatever airport it goes to. $3 million for that seems pretty reasonable, and honestly

I'm not an atheist and this makes me angry. Being a theist or atheist has nothing to do with thinking spending $800,000, meaninglessly, on prayer is a tremendous waste of resources. What would be a better use of time is allowing members of Congress a 10-15 minutes break that can be deemed as a "reflection break" where members can choose to pray, meditate, or just unwind...although I'm not really sure why they'd need to since I can't imagine only working a portion of the year and not really accomplishing anything is terribly stressful.

I was going to respond but then I thought to myself, "What possible argument could I come up with to convince someone who believe that $8 is a gross misuse of government funds, but spending $300,000,000 so the President can play golf is reasonable"?

 

[A2K78]

I'm Christian, but I have to say, this is rediculous that we're paying for prayer of one religion in a government organization. I thought we had seperation of church and state?

There is no constitutional basis for a seperation of church and state. In fact the first amendment has absolutely nothing to do with that other than protecting right to freely worship in the manner they choose from the state.

Now what people(and the courts) have foolishy used to justify a non-existent seperation is Jefferson' s Statue For Religious Freedom, something that has no basis in constitutional law other the fact jefferson was merely restating the right of individual to worship in manner they choose without interference from the state.

 

[squadops]

Your point? We've been slightly off topic for a couple pages now. I was responding to your post:

and my point is that non-theists are subject to violent/deadly hate crimes by theists on a daily basis. Doesn't matter where it takes place.

My point? Really? It very much does matter where it takes place, we do not do those things in the U.S.A. In fact we allow those that we protect on a daily basis to voice their complaints.

 

[Johnnypenso]

No, I could say what it really is but then I may end up never being able to post here again.

Maybe you should

Lighten up.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Maybe you should

Maybe you should

The article said $3 million, how did that number suddenly increase 100x?

Get some glasses.

 

[Joey D]

I was going to respond but then I thought to myself, "What possible argument could I come up with to convince someone who believe that $8 is a gross misuse of government funds, but spending $300,000,000 so the President can play golf is reasonable"?

Any misuse of tax money is a gross misuse of government funds. Allowing and paying for the president to have downtime is something I don't mind paying for since every president gets that and with that comes the cost associated with it and is essentially a perks of the job since we, the US people, are paying for all his living expenses.

To be fair, I suppose you might not fully understand this, since you know, you don't actually live in the US or pay US taxes since you live in Canada...which makes me wonder why you have such a strong opinion on this since it affects you in no way, shape or form. Now if we were talking about Justin Trudeau, then I could see your point.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Maybe you should

Get some glasses.

Fail. I already answered that query. Look up ^^

 

[LeMansAid]

Sometimes I think of how hard it would be to convince current day societies that it's ok to have birds (some of which could live up to 80 years), cooped up in tiny cages their whole lives, just for fun. It'd be a hard sell I reckon, if there wasn't already the tradition and desensitisation there.

I say get rid of the religious stuff and try to sell it back to the people. Another hard sell is my guess.

I could do it, I'm a Reverend*

*This is actually true

Not sure that the secret occupation involving your character Revere-End counts.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Any misuse of tax money is a gross misuse of government funds. Allowing and paying for the president to have downtime is something I don't mind paying for since every president gets that and with that comes the cost associated with it and is essentially a perks of the job since we, the US people, are paying for all his living expenses.

To be fair, I suppose you might not fully understand this, since you know, you don't actually live in the US or pay US taxes since you live in Canada...which makes me wonder why you have such a strong opinion on this since it affects you in no way, shape or form. Now if we were talking about Justin Trudeau, then I could see your point.

To be fair, I suppose you might not fully understand this, since you know, you're not a mod, it makes me wonder why you're questioning my posting in an opinion forum when the AUP has no residency requirements that I'm aware of.

Like I said, anyone that thinks $8 is gross and $300,000,000 in spending for optional recreation is ok, can't be convinced through any logic I'm aware of.

 

[Joey D]

To be fair, I suppose you might not fully understand this, since you know, you're not a mod, it makes me wonder why you're questioning my posting in an opinion forum when the AUP has no residency requirements that I'm aware of.

Like I said, anyone that thinks $8 is gross and $300,000,000 in spending for optional recreation is ok, can't be convinced through any logic I'm aware of.

I don't think I actually questioned your posting in this thread, rather asking why you have such a strong opinion on a matter that is solely one that has to do with the US when you don't even live here. It'd be like me forming a strong opinion about how the Canadian government spends money to entertain PM Trudeau. I feel like it's a fair question given your statements in this thread along with other opinion forum threads where you post on US matters. I mean you could be an ex-pat for all I know, which is what made me wonder.

And, once again, since you don't actually pay US taxes, how can you actually have an opinion what a gross misuse of US tax dollars is? Any misuse is a gross misuse.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think I actually questioned your posting in this thread, rather asking why you have such a strong opinion on a matter that is solely one that has to do with the US when you don't even live here. It'd be like me forming a strong opinion about how the Canadian government spends money to entertain PM Trudeau. I feel like it's a fair question given your statements in this thread along with other opinion forum threads where you post on US matters. I mean you could be an ex-pat for all I know, which is what made me wonder.

And, once again, since you don't actually pay US taxes, how can you actually have an opinion what a gross misuse of US tax dollars is? Any misuse is a gross misuse.

Again, it's an open opinions forum. There is no residency requirement and as far as I know, there's no call for anyone to justify their motivations behind posting opinions. Are you actually asking me how I can have an opinion on what a gross misuse of tax dollars is? I think you really should look up the definition of gross before you proceed. It does not mean what you think it means.