VERY Interesting comments from Ian Bell

[HeadsoupBob]

Here you go guys, this really should answer every question asked about Shift 2's handling feeling, physics etc. Thanks to Ian for being so open and frank with the community, can't wait for their WMD project to start!

"On Shift 2, really on a good PC I maintain it's a very realistic drive (ignoring a couple of poor cars and some dodgy default setups (there was a reason for that, we had to have all cars drivable at Ebisu with the single default setup)). There is some softening of the tyre response of a car on the edge but it's VERY subtle and closer to reality than you might think. It's a case of us softening the tyre wall stiffness a little only.
I recall Henrik Roos (my co head at SimBin, not a bad word at all, I founded it after all ) constantly telling me that when he drove the real FIA GT cars they were very comfortable on and over the limit - in a way that we didn't capture with GTR and even with GTR2. He told me GTR2 was too unforgiving and that these cars can be drifted comfortably. He said it's not the fastest way around the track and it kills the tyres but that's how they handle. We failed to deliver that ease on the limit partly due to limitations (and what we later found to be a bug) in the ISI tyre physics code that caused the grip to 'fall off a cliff' at the limits.
Having said that, the input lag on release with PC was crap, I'm driving the lag free version of course, which you can be soon."

And:

"On the floaty issue. I think the combination of very soft default springing and damping in the setups and the input lag issue combined to cause that for the most part. The 'softer than they really should be' tyre sidewalls we went with for pad playability contributes a little and the rest is due to the skid audio cues setup we went with I think. We trigger the skid audio well below 100% grip limit to give the player an indication that grip loss is coming. Again, something that is helpful with pad/console play. With the WMD project being PC all the way (then downporting to console later) we'd not do the above and would add it back for the consoles later. Probably link it to wheel use or not actually. "

Source

 

[kikie]

Here you go guys, this really should answer every question asked about Shift 2's handling feeling, physics etc. Thanks to Ian for being so open and frank with the community, can't wait for their WMD project to start!

"On Shift 2, really on a good PC I maintain it's a very realistic drive (ignoring a couple of poor cars and some dodgy default setups (there was a reason for that, we had to have all cars drivable at Ebisu with the single default setup)). There is some softening of the tyre response of a car on the edge but it's VERY subtle and closer to reality than you might think. It's a case of us softening the tyre wall stiffness a little only.
I recall Henrik Roos (my co head at SimBin, not a bad word at all, I founded it after all ) constantly telling me that when he drove the real FIA GT cars they were very comfortable on and over the limit - in a way that we didn't capture with GTR and even with GTR2. He told me GTR2 was too unforgiving and that these cars can be drifted comfortably. He said it's not the fastest way around the track and it kills the tyres but that's how they handle. We failed to deliver that ease on the limit partly due to limitations (and what we later found to be a bug) in the ISI tyre physics code that caused the grip to 'fall off a cliff' at the limits.
Having said that, the input lag on release with PC was crap, I'm driving the lag free version of course, which you can be soon."

And:

"On the floaty issue. I think the combination of very soft default springing and damping in the setups and the input lag issue combined to cause that for the most part. The 'softer than they really should be' tyre sidewalls we went with for pad playability contributes a little and the rest is due to the skid audio cues setup we went with I think. We trigger the skid audio well below 100% grip limit to give the player an indication that grip loss is coming. Again, something that is helpful with pad/console play. With the WMD project being PC all the way (then downporting to console later) we'd not do the above and would add it back for the consoles later. Probably link it to wheel use or not actually. "

Source

I've been reading the same thing yesterday. Somehow, your link doesn't for me work so I reposted it.
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249418&page=12

 

[Tireseas]

Someone should really tell them to either *not* compromise the controls/physics for the gamepad or include a very clear option to turn it off. Shift 2 was sooooo frustrating because of how good it almost was and then the controls ruined it.

The parties responsible for the default setups being the way they are should also be forced to sit quietly in the corner for the next Shift's dev cycle

 

[tribolik]

Those comments from Ian Bell, especialy the one that he states the PC gamers are going to have a free lag game soon (I play on the PS3) has put me off the game... Im now playing Dirt 3 instead and what diference in input response... I cant get back to Shift now and its a shame it has much better physics and I like circuit racing much better but on the other hand Im now playing my first bug free game in a long time...

 

[FLX1981]

Not only the controls lack severely in Shift 2: Freezes, collisions, bugs galore, no pre-race tuning, joke of a livery editor... I sincerely hope the lack of pressure regarding a release date solves at least some of these things.

 

[badeddy]

Those comments from Ian Bell, especialy the one that he states the PC gamers are going to have a free lag game soon (I play on the PS3) has put me off the game... Im now playing Dirt 3 instead and what diference in input response... I cant get back to Shift now and its a shame it has much better physics and I like circuit racing much better but on the other hand Im now playing my first bug free game in a long time...

If i read correctly somewhere i believe they said there is another patch coming out for consoles as well so don't just assume it's only the pc version that they will be fixing.

 

[DrJustice]

^ The questions about lag and crash fixes for consoles have been asked, addressed directly to their main man. However they seem unwilling to communicate with and support the console users in the same way as the PC users, despite the fact that the console users are financing the whole show. I don't know why it appears that the console community is getting comparatively little love, but I fear that there is an aspect of misguided elitism behind it, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm originally a PC sim racer (GTR, GTR2, Race series, LFS, potentially the new community funded SMS sim etc..), but have no disrespect for the console community - part of which are just as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as the PC crowd. In the case of S2U, I got it for the PS3 in order to Autolog and race online with friends (I keep myself in PS's anyway for that other sim which is mandatory for petrolheads ).

DJ
--

 

[Vaxxtx]

Those comments from Ian Bell, especialy the one that he states the PC gamers are going to have a free lag game soon (I play on the PS3) has put me off the game... Im now playing Dirt 3 instead and what diference in input response... I cant get back to Shift now and its a shame it has much better physics and I like circuit racing much better but on the other hand Im now playing my first bug free game in a long time...

Its not hard for Dirt3 to handle well, if you consider it only has 180 degrees of rotation for wheels, total arcade physics, and races that last 1 1/2 minutes.

Not saying its a bad game for everyone, but hard to compare a game like Dirt3that goes for the arcade, cool dude, over the top racing, to S2 that is trying to be more sim. I really cannot tell much of a difference in cars in D3. They all feel the same, all same strategy to win. Its like comparing Midnight Club to GT.

I do agree it IS bug free. That is pretty good. I beat the career in a few days. I got sick of the same 4 locations pretty quick. Id rather have a "meatier" game that has issues, and are being fixed, than a bug free game that is dull after 2 days. I went back to Dirt2 .

 

[tribolik]

Fair is fair and Dirt 3 is completly arcade but the steering wheel rotation (wich is in fact 270 as opposed to 360 default on shift) as nothing to do with imput response - you can put the rotation to 270 in shift also and the lag is just the same...
And in Dirt all the cars feel diferent even though they have a very grippy and irrialistic feel (arcade)
But what is better a game that tries to be a good and fun arcade racer (with over the top graphics) and does that very well or a game that tries to be the most realistic racer ever and a sim and fails miserably (filled with bugs and handling problems)
And Dirt 3 is very very similar to Dirt 2 in all aspects... except for gymkhana (wich I really dont like all that much)

Just to clear things I like sims much more and I do enjoy Shift 2 alot but what I dont enjoy is to see 5% of the costumers get love from the devs and the other 95% get nothing but a very good concept that doesnt work properly...

 

[TexasTyme214]

@FLX1981: What is the point of a pre-race tuning option if you can make a setup for each track?

 

[tribolik]

@FLX1981: What is the point of a pre-race tuning option if you can make a setup for each track?

Because the game has a ton of tracks and you dont usually tune the cars expecificaly for each one and it would be nice to have another tunning options before the races (like in GT4 - practice and tune) but I have to agree that it is no deal breaker

 

[vrooom]

@FLX1981: What is the point of a pre-race tuning option if you can make a setup for each track?

The ideal would be to have an optional practise session with a time limit. This way you could quickly tune your base setup for the event (for example adjusting transmission for unique tracks like Enna-Pergusa) without spending a lot of time in the menus. Also that would be ideal if Shift included different weather conditions.

But as tribolik it's no deal breaker!

 

[Vaxxtx]

Fair is fair and Dirt 3 is completly arcade but the steering wheel rotation (wich is in fact 270 as opposed to 360 default on shift) as nothing to do with imput response - you can put the rotation to 270 in shift also and the lag is just the same...
And in Dirt all the cars feel diferent even though they have a very grippy and irrialistic feel (arcade)
But what is better a game that tries to be a good and fun arcade racer (with over the top graphics) and does that very well or a game that tries to be the most realistic racer ever and a sim and fails miserably (filled with bugs and handling problems)
And Dirt 3 is very very similar to Dirt 2 in all aspects... except for gymkhana (wich I really dont like all that much)

Just to clear things I like sims much more and I do enjoy Shift 2 alot but what I dont enjoy is to see 5% of the costumers get love from the devs and the other 95% get nothing but a very good concept that doesnt work properly...

Besides the posts on NoGrip, what other Dev love are you talking about? I know every discussion I have seen has involved the PC and consoles. PC gets patched first etc., just because there is no middle man (sony/Microsoft) to get approved.

I agree Shift2 is in dire need of love, but I just dont get the doomsday tone.

To me, Dirt3 is a huge downgrade to 2. Both offroad games yeah, but different in many ways. I like the rally and trailblazer tracks MUCH more in 2 (they are much more technical and narrow), and the gatcrasher events, and the alternate routes in raid events. Seems they toned down everything in 3. From the menues, to the races (rally tracks WIDE open roads with smooth corners), to the fact you cant pick your own liveries on the same car, no more dashboard toys, not as many events, 1 truck, 1 buggy etc. Its watered down IMO.

And yeah, Gymkhana is pretty lame, and so is lingo that goes with it that you are forced to listen to....

 

[tribolik]

Yeah china croatia and that jungle tracks were very good and its too bad they didnt make it into this one... But I never like the toys (always took them off) and I also miss being able to choose your liverys and the menu made much more sence and was much more imersive... I also miss the EVO IV and a few other car conversions to trailblazer... but they have announced that the game will have several DLCs so that might all be added later on.

I was wrong about the wheel rotation I just checked and it is about 210 - 240 not 270 like I stated before but I still say that it doesnt make any difference to imput response...

I say Shift on consoles doesnt get the same love because the devs just talk to the PC community and the patches seem to be more PC focused (improving the game not just fixing bugs) but in the consoles versions they dont even aknowledge some issues or adress them... If the game was no good or didnt have great potencial I would move on and keep quiet about it (like superstars V8 and many others I regretted buying) but to leave what could have been a great game on consoles cripled doesnt seem fair to me....

 

[TexasTyme214]

I'm going to agree with Tribolik here. The game is designed on PS3, yet PC is more likely to get support. Don't get me wrong, the PC community has gotten the short end of the stick from EA for years, but I'd still like to see the improvements thread be used for something on each platform.

 

[tribolik]

Yes its great to see the PC players get all that support from SMS but the other 95% of the costumers should have at least the bugs fixed and a word from the devs on that matter would also be nice...

But im beggining to think they arent doing this to please the costumers they are doing it for prestige sake IMO

 

[fatkrakr]

Well imo the pc is getting all the love because of the new project. That is where most of his donations will come from. If sms doesnt get this game right with corprate funding im not sure how theyll do on there own.Will be intresting to see and them blaming EA for steering lag and other issues just dont fly with me. Its your game SMS show a little pride in this game before moving on.

 

[HKS racer]

^ The questions about lag and crash fixes for consoles have been asked, addressed directly to their main man. However they seem unwilling to communicate with and support the console users in the same way as the PC users, despite the fact that the console users are financing the whole show. I don't know why it appears that the console community is getting comparatively little love, but I fear that there is an aspect of misguided elitism behind it, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

Personally I'm originally a PC sim racer (GTR, GTR2, Race series, LFS, potentially the new community funded SMS sim etc..), but have no disrespect for the console community - part of which are just as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as the PC crowd. In the case of S2U, I got it for the PS3 in order to Autolog and race online with friends (I keep myself in PS's for that other sim which is mandatory for petrolheads ).

DJ
--

I agree with this post you're right when you ask same effort in booth platforms, but I guess it's due to the fact they are grown as pc developers and gamers. With pc you can always release a patch without Sony approving system and there are comunities of modders looking forward to fix your product if you don't. Two different worlds, that's why if you really like Shift series you should start considering to get into pc gaming.

 

[Vaxxtx]

I just dont see SMS giving PC users anything they are not planning for consoles, besides the PC only problem fixes, which do not affect consoles...obviously.

Heck, the PC have yet to get the DLC. That is one thing in the works for them.

While I "get" the fact SMS is very active on the PC forums, and dead here on the console ones, besides that.........what are they getting that we are not?

I could be totally wrong, but just point me to the right info so I can shut up

 

[tribolik]

^ The questions about lag and crash fixes for consoles have been asked, addressed directly to their main man. However they seem unwilling to communicate with and support the console users in the same way as the PC users, despite the fact that the console users are financing the whole show. I don't know why it appears that the console community is getting comparatively little love, but I fear that there is an aspect of misguided elitism behind it, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

I'm originally a PC sim racer (GTR, GTR2, Race series, LFS, potentially the new community funded SMS sim etc..), but have no disrespect for the console community - part of which are just as enthusiastic and knowledgeable as the PC crowd. In the case of S2U, I got it for the PS3 in order to Autolog and race online with friends (I keep myself in PS's anyway for that other sim which is mandatory for petrolheads ).

DJ
--

I think the problem is that they have monthly paychecks from EA and no royalties so they could care less if it sold more on consoles than it did on PC....

What other game are you talking about???? mandatory??? you mean Forza 3?? I thought it was only for Xbox (Im kidding)

Well imo the pc is getting all the love because of the new project. That is where most of his donations will come from. If sms doesnt get this game right with corprate funding im not sure how theyll do on there own.Will be intresting to see and them blaming EA for steering lag and other issues just dont fly with me. Its your game SMS show a little pride in this game before moving on.

Most donnations will come from them??? first of all they are not donnations they will be investments IINM... second I would like to invest myself but from what I could gather the console version will be a PC port and if it gets the same support as this one is getting than whats the point??? financial only... even so I dont think it will be a good investment if they are treating 95% of their potencial costumers like they seem to be doing now...

 

[C6.R]

I think he's very right.
that kind of race cars don't drift , I don't have the confidence now to take a fast corner ( Like 130R on Suzuka) flat out , not even with Gt3 cars.
the car immediatly starts to oversteer...
ok , i'm not the type of guy that set's up his car for every race ( but I do for every endurance race) but these cars don't give you the confidence of a real high downforce race car

am I right?

 

[boxox]

As far as Griff posted - everything that is in PC 1.02 will be in 360/PS3 1.03 and they will be effectively the same thing.

One thing that maybe isn't clear when Ian is talking about making it around Ebisu - the setup there has to work for both the AI (which will use whatever defaults are set per car) and the player. This actually turned up as an issue back in Shift 1 where a few car setups were still too low for the AI to drive properly and would result in them bottoming out most of the way around the track, and they changed it in Shift 1.01.

Sidewalls comment is interesting - especially given that if anything most people find it much too hard to control on a gamepad even with that . I think it's important to read it in the context of talking about GTR2 there - so we have eg.

"Real Sim" GTR2 = -50% too little flex/too much dropoff

"Totally Arcade" Shift = +5% too much flex/too little dropoff

Which kind of says a lot about the mentality of Teh Real Simzors

 

[johngt]

Here you go guys, this really should answer every question asked about Shift 2's handling feeling, physics etc. Thanks to Ian for being so open and frank with the community, can't wait for their WMD project to start!
Source

Whats the WMD project?

 

[vrooom]

Sidewalls comment is interesting - especially given that if anything most people find it much too hard to control on a gamepad even with that . I think it's important to read it in the context of talking about GTR2 there - so we have eg.

"Real Sim" GTR2 = -50% too little flex/too much dropoff

"Totally Arcade" Shift = +5% too much flex/too little dropoff

Which kind of says a lot about the mentality of Teh Real Simzors

It doesn't surprise me. People consider simulation a driving game that doesn't even have a tire simulation model and as result doesn't have adjustable tire pressure or tire temperature readouts! Unfortunately with good marketing you can make most people believe anything! Also Shift 2 has a steep learning curve (requiring smooth wheel, throttle, brake control and a conservative and not daredevil approach) and as a result most people used to the mainstream "driving simulators" find the game too hard! And then the "it's NFS, therefore arcade!!!" reflex kicks in!

Shift 2 handles brilliantly with a wheel! Unless of course you try drifting where it's almost impossible. Even Ian Bell admits at nogripracing that he uses a gamepad for drifting. So maybe drifting is the biggest compromise they made to make the game playable with a gamepad at the expense of wheel users? Oh well, I don't care that much. The rest of the game is brilliant and very realistic with a wheel and drifting with a gamepad is a really fun mode (which truly captures the feel of drifting) and makes Shift 2 a great game for me even when I am not in the mood to connect a wheel!

And I haven't bought yet the DLCs! I don't have enough free time right now...

 

[RomKnight]

I have to agree with vroom here. But since I will never drive GT or anything very expensive like Zonda, I might be wrong.

Anyway, it feels right with my G27 despite some quirks in some cars that can be fixed with proper tune.

 

[DrJustice]

Whats the WMD project?

It's the nickname for SMS's Community-Funded Race Sim.

DJ
--

 

[DrJustice]

...
"Real Sim" GTR2 = -50% too little flex/too much dropoff

"Totally Arcade" Shift = +5% too much flex/too little dropoff

Which kind of says a lot about the mentality of Teh Real Simzors

And who are "Teh Real Simzors"? Presumably the guys that made both of those sims, or...

GTR2 was released six years ago, and alongside GPL and a couple of fringe projects, it was considered a triple A racing sim inasmuch as it gave a very convincing and satisfying GT racing experience. Many features of it are still benchmarks and references. It should be expected that every generation of sims suprpasses the previous ones in all areas.

@ vrooom : Do I sense some belittling smugness there, as I do from boxox's posting? Of course, those who have issues with your current favourite sim don't understand anything about simming

DJ
--

 

[arvore]

Unfortunately with good marketing you can make most people believe anything!

That's absolutely true as E.A. just proved with S2U!

Also Shift 2 has a steep learning curve (requiring smooth wheel, throttle, brake control and a conservative and not daredevil approach) and as a result most people used to the mainstream "driving simulators" find the game too hard! And then the "it's NFS, therefore arcade!!!" reflex kicks in!

So, it isn't possible for people to think the game is easy(after a few weeks of playing the A.I-HARD\ELITE- it's like GT5 1st turn bye-bye), think that for their taste the fastest approach it's still pretty much "daredevil", think the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features-like full damage also- that don't impact the handling of the cars as they should can't find the game arcade???
I won't even mention the nitrous and explosions and stuff...and the fact that You can upgrade a 1970 GT-R to top the GT1 cars performances.


"It must be a reflex or syndrome or disease if people don't feel like I do" it's a little short in terms of mentality don't You think?

EDIT:

@ vrooom : Do I sense some belittling smugness there, as I do from boxox's posting? Of course, those who have issues with your current favourite sim don't understand anything about simming

Pretty much my thoughts!

 

[tribolik]

So, it isn't possible for people to think the game is easy(after a few weeks of playing the A.I-HARD\ELITE- it's like GT5 1st turn bye-bye), think that for their taste the fastest approach it's still pretty much "daredevil", think the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features-like full damage also- that don't impact the handling of the cars as they should can't find the game arcade???
I won't even mention the nitrous and explosions and stuff...and the fact that You can upgrade a 1970 GT-R to top the GT1 cars performances.:indiff

Pretty much my thoughts!

I dont think you can... I upgraded mine to the fullest and its around 1550 IINM... unless theres some engine swap I missed...

Please dont forget that pad users are cursed with invisible aids that make handling feel much more irrealistic...

But to be honnest I can call a game with an imput lag of over >0.300-0.350s a Sim

 

[vrooom]

@ vrooom : Do I sense some belittling smugness there, as I do from boxox's posting? Of course, those who have issues with your current favourite sim don't understand anything about simming

No, not at all. Shift 2 is my favorite racing game/sim right now. I am not suggesting that it's flawless, nothing is. You may find the flaws of Shift 2 to detract from the game and you may prefer a different racing game/sim. We are both right!

I am just getting tired of statements like "Shift 2 is an NFS arcade game!!", "The cars handle like they are on ice, this is a boat simulator!!", etc. These comments come from "Teh Real Simzors" which are a completely different group from the "Racing game/sim enthusiasts"!

Sorry if I appeared to be smug, I am not!

@arvore
Explosions? Are we still talking about Shift 2? Anyway, keep believing 'the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features' and ignore all the evidence to the contrary, I really don't want to argue with you...