VERY Interesting comments from Ian Bell

[iLex]

*snip*
However they seem unwilling to communicate with and support the console users in the same way as the PC users, despite the fact that the console users are financing the whole show. I don't know why it appears that the console community is getting comparatively little love, but I fear that there is an aspect of misguided elitism behind it, although I'd love to be proven wrong.
*snip*

"On Shift, consoles sales were 96% of total sales."
- Ian Bell, somewhere in this post

Console users are indeed financing the whole thing. I was absolutely amazed at this number, especially seeing how little time SMS EA seems to spend correcting the big issues on PS3.

 

[Tireseas]

Blame EA, as pointed out in the post. It's their call what gets fixed and what doesn't.

 

[iLex]

Blame EA, as pointed out in the post. It's their call what gets fixed and what doesn't.

Sorry, I might have been too fast in writing "SMS" indeed. I'll change my post The point is still valid though.

 

[G.T.Ace]

It's a case of us softening the tyre wall stiffness a little only.
I recall Henrik Roos (my co head at SimBin, not a bad word at all, I founded it after all ) constantly telling me that when he drove the real FIA GT cars they were very comfortable on and over the limit - in a way that we didn't capture with GTR and even with GTR2. He told me GTR2 was too unforgiving and that these cars can be drifted comfortably. He said it's not the fastest way around the track and it kills the tyres but that's how they handle. We failed to deliver that ease on the limit partly due to limitations (and what we later found to be a bug) in the ISI tyre physics code that caused the grip to 'fall off a cliff' at the limits.

People laughed at me when I said this.

 

[DrJustice]

...Sorry if I appeared to be smug, I am not!

I see, vroom 👍

I was unsure about the sentiment, which is why I asked (as opposed to asserted). I also try to make some of my comments a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I might mention, that sometimes, it's difficult to discuss these things on the net, partly because of what sometimes appears to be a very polarized community; either you're a "fanboy" or a "hater", a sim either "rocks" or "sucks", and little room is left for enthusiasts to have a rational discussion. I must say that this very sub-forum seems to be quite well balanced - good job everyone!

DJ
--

 

[boxox]

And who are "Teh Real Simzors"? Presumably the guys that made both of those sims, or...

No, the guys who wrote both games actually know anything about anything

GTR2 was released six years ago, and alongside GPL and a couple of fringe projects, it was considered a triple A racing sim inasmuch as it gave a very convincing and satisfying GT racing experience. Many features of it is still benchmarks and references. It should be expected that every generation of sims suprpasses the previous ones in all areas.

I agree - it seems perfectly reasonable to expect that the next game would - for example - use more accurate tyre data and contain less fundamental bugs than the previous one. Only... it turns out, that's actually a problem

@ vrooom : Do I sense some belittling smugness there, as I do from boxox's posting? Of course, those who have issues with your current favourite sim don't understand anything about simming

DJ
--

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it belittling smugness - maybe demeaning pity?

Like. At a certain point. When the project lead of a game says it did certain things wrong around the edges due to fundamental tyre model bugs. And the physics lead says it was also wrong due to wrong tyre data. And the real drivers of the real cars (including the CEO / FIA GT liaison of the company that made the game!) say it was unrealistically hard around the edges. At what point does a reasonable person give up on insisting that it was the One True Physics model and that anything that fixes those issues is wrong? Is there anyone else at this point who could be brought in to convince them otherwise?

 

[fatkrakr]

I still dont see how you put all blame on EA. Maybe im wrong but didnt SMS at some point agree to make a game to release on xx date. Thats what they where paid for. They have not delivered. If they needed more time thats SMS fault they agreed to the date. SMS has had 2 patches to fix the issues they havent. Dont get me wrong and love shift. But SMS is the developer its there game and there fault.

 

[Tireseas]

EA greenlit it, published it, hyped it up as being the GT/Forza killer, and influenced some of the more questionable decisions that ultimately prevent it from getting anywhere near that mark. I fail to see how it isn't EA's fault.

 

[OLDSKOOLACURA]

The thing that makes me mad the most with SHIFT 2 is the fact that they were so close to having one hell of a game, but those problems here and there seem to frustrate me more and more. I stopped racing it for awhile (DIRT 3, and BAD COMPANY 2) and when I go back I just don't have the love I used to because they were sooo close to having one of, if not the best, (not including SIM because I never played them but I am thinking about trying IRACING) the best racers out there.

its a shame, I won't be selling it but I will put it away for awhile and hope they do something anything to help fix these problems

lag, stuck to walls if you touch them. I never had much problems with freezing (happened a couple times)

 

[fatkrakr]

I thought this thread was about steering lag and bugs. Thats what my comments where on to be more clear. Them are SMS issues. The marketing is a different topic. 👍

 

[DrJustice]

...I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it belittling smugness - maybe demeaning pity?

...At what point does a reasonable person give up on insisting that it was the One True Physics model and that anything that fixes those issues is wrong? Is there anyone else at this point who could be brought in to convince them otherwise?

Well, The One True Physics model will be a moving target forever.

For instance, with a True Physics model, there is no need to trigger samples of squealing tires. Squealing tires doesn't slide continuously, they go through a grip and slip cycle a few hundred or thousand times per second, resulting in an audible pressure wave in the air volume around the tires. You then simply feed that sound directly to the audio output via a suitable simulated transducer. That's True Physics, and we won't be seeing or hearing it for some time yet

DJ
--

 

[arvore]

I dont think you can... I upgraded mine to the fullest and its around 1550 IINM... unless theres some engine swap I missed...

1500, 1550 whatever it's still unbelievably fast for an old snail!

Please dont forget that pad users are cursed with invisible aids that make handling feel much more irrealistic...

And here we go again...look the Wheel can improve the gaming experience, the immersiveness, the fun,etc.But it doesn't change the game physics or it's core engine.
This is where I tell You that I've tried S2U several times on two different wheels and I didn't change my opinion...neither did both my friends that use S2U with wheels daily.
Just to get this out of our way:

A sim for me is this:



Forza,GT,Shift, Dirt, etc are just racing games.Some more believable, photo realistic, fun,etc...but they're all just that: Games!

But to be honnest I can call a game with an imput lag of over >0.300-0.350s a Sim

I'm gonna quote a friends quote to support Your opinion.👍

The Unfortunate Sim Racing Paradigm



I used to be a hardcore console guy. Mainly due to cost, I think; as we all know, gaming PC’s are expensive. It’s always been cheaper to buy another console every year (I tend to collect ‘em all) than to upgrade a computer every year. But as they say, the only difference between men and boys is the size of their toys, and my toys are growing. From a parent’s allowance to a real paycheck, I’ve gone from collecting toy cars to saving up for track accessories for my real cars. And I’ve moved up from consoles to PC gaming.

Don’t get me wrong, I still love console gaming. The cabinet stuffed with 20+ years of game consoles still connected to the TV and the shelves of games should tell that story well enough. But there are some things that just don’t deserve to be on consoles; the main one, in my opinion, being sim racing.


o hai GT5 standard car
PC games have almost always had a huge advantage in the hardware department, but that doesn’t mean it’s always been fully utilized as such. Remember in 2005, when Gran Turismo 4 and rFactor were both released? Things were more or less equal then, although the games couldn’t have been more different from each other: one having a huge library of lovingly rendered cars and tracks with “awesome” physics and graphics engines for the time, and the other, while hardly featuring any cars or tracks and sporting decent graphics and a dismal GUI, was on top of a great physics engine that’s still being used as the basis for thousands of mods and competitive racing to this day.

The problem for consoles is that while the same hardware has to stick around for years, on PC its always being developed. Thus, the extra power to run more complex physics engines is always right around the corner in the PC world. Gran Turismo 5 is a visual stunner, is it not? But in the grand scheme of things, when you compare apples to oranges (and why not, they’re both fruit right?), you see that the PC versions of F1 2010, Shift2: Unleashed, and DiRT3, just to name a few, easily look better. Those games are also on PS3, albeit with significantly gelded graphics in comparison to their PC brethren. What if GT5 had been made for PC? PC games can be played at full HD (1920×1080) and beyond, with adjustable anti-aliasing and graphics controls, and usually—and this is extremely important—at a higher framerate.




As someone who sits in a Recaro and wears driving shoes to play racing games, it’s the framerate that’s probably more important than anything. Amazing graphics certainly help the immersion; I’ll admit that I’ve waved at spectators while driving past grandstands and done burnouts after sim victories because, well, why not? We all know I’ll never be driving an F1 car in front of thousands of spectators in real life. But we also know that real life occurs smoothly; when I turn the wheel in a real car, it reacts immediately. And in the console games I’ve played lately, this is just not the case.

Gran Turismo 5 is a notable offender. With cockpit view on, there is a noticeable FPS hit compared to the bumper cam—no surprise really. After running around the Ring at ~250fps in rFactor, I jump into GT5. Even as the only car on the track there’s a slight bit of lag that just makes you feel sluggish; it’s annoying, but playable. Adding to that is the fact that the steering wheel animations are WAY behind, which can make the laggy input even more pronounced. The PS3 is just too slow to do what Polyphony Digital have tried to get it to do.



Another unfortunate sufferer is Shift2: Unleashed. While the PC version has excellent graphics (but indeed some problems that I’ll address in a full review forthcoming), the console version is sadly castrated. Next to the PC version it runs like a slideshow and looks almost last generation. At least it puts GT5’s load times into perspective! But the in-game performance can sometimes get frustrating, especially when you’re jostling with 6 angry CPU drivers in front and 4 charging up behind you and the frame rate chugs along like a Beetle up a mountain pass. I’m sitting here with the PC version getting frustrated with some 45 fps running in traffic (and I’m CPU limited with a quad core 3.8ghz AMD…) and the console guys can only dream of running that smoothly with a lonely track.



It’s not that these games are bad, it’s just that they’re shadows of their former selves; the limited console hardware is clearly limiting what can be done. And of the ports, in most cases, I can legitimately say: they tried. But if you want the best experience, you need to play it on PC. This was true back in 1996 when you wanted to play Formula 1, and it’s true in 2011 when you want to play Shift2: Unleashed.



Developers are smart: they develop the games for PC so they’re all they can be to begin with. But unfortunately, it’s the consumers who are getting the short end of the stick here. My review for the console version of S2U is that you probably shouldn’t buy it unless you enjoy a lot of waiting for slowness—but my review for the PC version is actually a lot more kind to it because of some key differences (like FPS and load time, among others). The technical advances in PC technology combined with the revelations in physics developments (e.g. rFactor2 and iRacing 2.0 new tire modeling techniques) mean that we’re entering somewhat of a golden age of sim racing–if you have a modern gaming PC, that is. If you’ve got a PS3 or a 360, you’re screwed. But hey, at least you can play Red Dead Redemption.

Source RSC

I am just getting tired of statements like "Shift 2 is an NFS arcade game!!", "The cars handle like they are on ice, this is a boat simulator!!", etc. These comments come from "Teh Real Simzors" which are a completely different group from the "Racing game/sim enthusiasts"!

Have You read many here...can't seem to remember many recently...

@arvore
Explosions?

Yep in the main menu,when we unlock stuff.

Are we still talking about Shift 2?

And again Yes...right forum, right thread.

Anyway, keep believing 'the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features'

And You keep believing they aren't...

and ignore all the evidence to the contrary,

...such as...?

I really don't want to argue with you...

That's just fine...just don't expect coming to a public forum, posting...er...polemic opinions and have everyone agreeing with You.
Plus if You have such problems with people having different opinions from Yours why make them public to begin with...?

 

[HKS racer]

I still dont see how you put all blame on EA. Maybe im wrong but didnt SMS at some point agree to make a game to release on xx date. Thats what they where paid for. They have not delivered. If they needed more time thats SMS fault they agreed to the date. SMS has had 2 patches to fix the issues they havent. Dont get me wrong and love shift. But SMS is the developer its there game and there fault.

No mate it's booth their fault, expecially if you consider creating racing games of this complexity need lot of bugfixing and betatesting in all platforms before to have a decent 1.00 version, they called 1.00 but at D1 they sold you a 0.70 beta, they are still trying to patch. EA want 1 racing game every 12 months, SMS are trying their best but they are not able to do all that stuff in only 1 year, EA should understand that and give SMS time to fix major bugs (i.e. ps3 freezes) but they don't give a damn about fixing they just want their developers move on in the next cash cow $$$ product.

 

[fatkrakr]

No mate it's booth their fault, expecially if you consider creating racing games of this complexity need lot of bugfixing and betatesting in all platforms before to have a decent 1.00 version, they called 1.00 but at D1 they sold you a 0.70 beta, they are still trying to patch. EA want 1 racing game every 12 months, SMS are trying their best but they are not able to do all that stuff in only 1 year, EA should understand that and give SMS time to fix major bugs (i.e. ps3 freezes) but they don't give a damn about fixing they just want their developers move on in the next cash cow $$$ product.

I think they had 2 years. SMS agreed to that at some point (right?) but for whatever reason the game wasnt finished. Hows that EA fault? EA has given time for bug fixes (2 patches) and i hope SMS can get it fixed. Im not an EA fan boy EA shouldnt of released the game your right but thats a different topic.

 

[vrooom]

...such as...?

• Many members of the SMS team were behind games like GTR2, GTL which are still considered benchmarks of racing game/sims,
• Modders of Shift found evidence of suspension geometry, tire simulation etc
• The physics hud of Shift 2 which shows tire temperatures is the best way to set tire pressure, camber angle and reduce tire degradation. This is in my opinion a strong evidence of an advanced simulation code.
• Comments from SMS. They describe many of the design decisions behind their games, how they enhanced their physics engine based on their previous games, etc
• You can drive aggressively and achieve similar times with someone who drives smoothly but your tires will suffer (higher temperature and degradation) and you will feel that when you drive 20laps in a powerful car.
• Occam's razor. Your suggestion that 'the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features' implies that at any given time two different handling codes work at Shift 2: one that actually determines how the car behaves and another that fills some fake data on tire temperatures. Apart from the fact that this is highly improbable and a very bad way to spend development time and resources it's almost impossible to do (how to make sure that the two models calculate the same solution?). Therefore the most logical thing is for Shift 2 to have a single handling code that calculates tire temperature, pressure, deformation, suspension geometry and travel, etc and determined the movement of the car.

Now, can you stop derailing the topic and posting walls-of-text? We get it, you consider Shift 2 to be an arcade racer, more power to you! Arguing with you is futile as (judging by your post history) no matter how many evidence to the contrary we provide you won't change your mind.

 

[tinram]

Anyone can say it's a sim or not, it does not matter because there is no governing body that states which is sim and which is not.

To me it's almost a sim, but like i said earlier who cares!

I would like to see them fix the floatiness and have proper support for a clutch when i go drag racing. Who shifts to first gear when it time to go ?

 

[Firehuntah]

• You can drive aggressively and achieve similar times with someone who drives smoothly but your tires will suffer (higher temperature and degradation) and you will feel that when you drive 20laps in a powerful car.

I have done all the endurance races in Shift 2 and did not really notice any tyre degradation. Not really sure about temperatures, highly doubt they're just visual but I also don't seem to notice much difference if the tyres are 'hot' or cold.

Anyway, the physics aren't as advanced as you want everyone to believe. I mean.. why are the physics different in races, drift and drag/standing mile? All 3 modes should use the same physics engine if they want to make it as real as possible.



Edit: little off topic, quick question. Does progress of the online driver duel championship get saved when you quit the game? Currently at the semi-finals but no one has entered my lobby after an hour....
Edit #2: Nvm, found the answer elsewhere already.

 

[boxox]

[*]Occam's razor. Your suggestion that 'the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features' implies that at any given time two different handling codes work at Shift 2: one that actually determines how the car behaves and another that fills some fake data on tire temperatures. Apart from the fact that this is highly improbable and a very bad way to spend development time and resources it's almost impossible to do (how to make sure that the two models calculate the same solution?). Therefore the most logical thing is for Shift 2 to have a single handling code that calculates tire temperature, pressure, deformation, suspension geometry and travel, etc and determined the movement of the car.

Yeah, hate to break it to you avore but even in Shift 1 the tyre wear/heating system is completely functional (with only heating active) and supports a fairly ridiculously complicated set of heat generation/heat loss/wear/damage parameters. It's done 'properly' all down the line - friction causes heat depending on the contact area/surface type/surface heat, different dimension/compound tyres gain and lose heat at different rates, air temperature and ground temperature influence heat gain/loss, bla bla (and this extends to a similarly advanced system for brake temp/wear). It's pretty hardcore.

Shift is .. not a sim versus what? A game where you can't even change tyre pressure, tyre upgrade differences are simple lat g increases with no other effect and there's no brake tuning/heat/fade at all? Really?

 

[arvore]

• Many members of the SMS team were behind games like GTR2, GTL which are still considered benchmarks of racing game/sims,

• 
  
  Boxox might disagree with You there...anyhow, what does that exactly prove about S2U Tyre modelling???!
  

  [*]Modders of Shift found evidence of suspension geometry, tire simulation etc

  
  Which evidence?
  I'm talking about the PS3 version of the game, didn't knew it had mods...
  
  

  [*]The physics hud of Shift 2 which shows tire temperatures is the best way to set tire pressure, camber angle and reduce tire degradation. This is in my opinion a strong evidence of an advanced simulation code.

  
  The hud right...remember when I mentioned visual effects?
  Anyhow I've experienced this myself...tell You what, tune Your car with maximum camber...do 20 laps with it...tune minimum camber then, do the same 20 laps.
  Then check the lap times of the final 5 laps in each race and tell me if You notice any difference, better yet keep checking the hud stuff and notice any difference...it's like full damage...just visual effects that allied with the power of suggestion...make believe!
  
  

  [*]Comments from SMS. They describe many of the design decisions behind their games, how they enhanced their physics engine based on their previous games, etc

  
  Comments from the devs,right...we've been there.
  
  

  [*]You can drive aggressively and achieve similar times with someone who drives smoothly but your tires will suffer (higher temperature and degradation) and you will feel that when you drive 20laps in a powerful car

  
  Nah, see above, not to mention that 90% of shift events are 3 laps...how relevant could a tyre temperature model be?
  .
  

  [*]Occam's razor. Your suggestion that 'the tyre temperature and pressure are pretty much "visual" features' implies that at any given time two different handling codes work at Shift 2: one that actually determines how the car behaves and another that fills some fake data on tire temperatures. Apart from the fact that this is highly improbable and a very bad way to spend development time and resources it's almost impossible to do (how to make sure that the two models calculate the same solution?). Therefore the most logical thing is for Shift 2 to have a single handling code that calculates tire temperature, pressure, deformation, suspension geometry and travel, etc and determined the movement of the car.

What?!
It has one working engine, physics model, whatever that is supposed to take,mildly- they're working for the mainstream market remember, and people find the game hard as it is, go figure...- tyre temperature and pressure into account, so they added a visual menu to make things more believable...you can't actually see the influence that tyre pressure and temperature have in the game physics engine through that menu.
Check the telemetry menus and features in SSV8NC-which had a dynamic track grip and tyre wear,etc...than tell me if You would call it a sim!

Now, can you stop derailing the topic and posting walls-of-text?

No!!!
First, You don't get to tell me what to do ,think or write, understood?
Second ,I'm not derailing the topic-but if You think so, by all means ,report it!- we're commenting the Ian Bell opinion, in which You offered an opinion I don't agree with and we're debating it-although You started to say that You wouldn't...volatile wills,I see.
As for the walls of text You aren't doing that bad Yourself, and that's fine You have an opinion You want to share it...Good....why can't others do the same?!👎

We get it, you consider Shift 2 to be an arcade racer, more power to you!

Again with the "WE" are You related to someone here?...or You just feel more confidence in Your opinion if it's seconded by others?

Arguing with you is futile as (judging by your post history)

What post history???!!!
Are You even here long enought to speak for others posting history?
Where do You know me from?
I think it's childish and insecure and a blow below the belt that people start questioning others credibility just because they disagree with him and can't offer enough support to their opinions, which want to present as facts.
Can't we debate without the personal attacks part?

no matter how many evidence to the contrary we provide you won't change your mind.

I ask again what evidence...and who is we?
There are two of You behind the keyboard?

 

[Vaxxtx]

Why do people that dont like a game go out of their way to put it down? I never understood that.

When I stop playing a game, I pretty much stop playing, posting, thinking, reading about etc. on that game. What is the drive to continue?

 

[boxox]

Boxox might disagree with You there...anyhow, what does that exactly prove about S2U Tyre modelling???!

They share most of the same heating/wear parameters

It has one working engine, physics model, whatever that is supposed to take,mildly- they're working for the mainstream market remember, any people find the game hard as it is, go figure...- tyre temperature and pressure into account, so they added a visual menu to make things more believable...you can't actually see the influence that tyre pressure and temperature have in the game physics engine through that menu.
Check the telemetry menus and features in SSV8NC-which had a dynamic track grip and tyre wear,etc...than tell me if You would call it a sim!

I'll just repost this here then. Bear in mind - this is nothing to do with what the devs said about anything. This is using a custom HUD (which I made all by myself! *horn toot*) which I hacked together to read the tyre/brake temps in Shift 1 (it does seem to support the same inside/outside/middle temp reading as S2U, but it was a bit beyond me to find out how to get to that). This is something I did purely for my own testing and before there was any real claim to model anything about tyre response other than that there was a heating model.

If I could output telemetry, I'd do some more involved testing as I'm curious if the tires always reach the same max temperature regardless of tire pressure (i.e. in the sim focused games, you could decrease tire temp by adjust pressures along with the amount of aero).

I can't speak for Shift2 but I've been playing around with this a lot lately in Shift 1, and tyre pressure certainly does influence temps from playing there. Couple examples:

R8LMS tyre starting temperature - stock tyre pressure:

(all 90)

R8LMS - stock tyre pressure - end of 5 laps

(93-121-98-115)

R8LMS - max tyre pressure - end of 5 laps

(82-107-89-109)

R8LMS - min tyre pressure - end of 5 laps

(105-139-113-133)

WRXSTI - starting temp

(all 85)

WRXSTI - stock tyre pressure after 5 laps

(87-108-90-113)

WRXSTI- max tyre pressure after 5 laps

(81-102-82-107)

WRXSTI - min tyre pressure after 5 laps

(95-118-100-127)

Pretty much drove them taking as much speed off on the tyres as possible each corner.

There are several effect scales for tyre heating, but the main division (at least as far as I can tell from modding) is between the hdt scale effects (which covers loss from under/over heat and off pressure), which directly affect grip, and the damage system which seems mainly (solely?) to decay stiffness (and thus ffb) and clock off the timer until a tyre puncture from sharp objects (going off track with 0 tyre "health" left = instant puncture). Though increasing heating does seem to increase the damage ticker from physicstweaker.

Here's what happens when you increase the grip dropoff from overheated tyres:


(93-115-98-112)

It's really unpleasant to drive with 10x the normal grip dropoff from excess heat. Really not good

Anyhow, very likely the same thing applies for Shift 2.

Things we learn -

1) tyre heat works

2) tyre heat is related to how much ground contact the tyre has, and how much friction there is between the tyre and the ground

3) the model that decreases tyre grip from over/under heat and being outside of ideal pressure works

4) the heat system links to the damage system and degrades the tyre based on how far and how long it is outside of ideal operating parameters

Again - nothing at all to do with what the devs claimed about the game - just pure messing around under the floorboards and checking to see what could be made to work before those features were ever advertised.

 

[arvore]

Yeah, hate to break it to you avore but even in Shift 1 the tyre wear/heating system is completely functional (with only heating active) and supports a fairly ridiculously complicated set of heat generation/heat loss/wear/damage parameters. It's done 'properly' all down the line - friction causes heat depending on the contact area/surface type/surface heat, different dimension/compound tyres gain and lose heat at different rates, air temperature and ground temperature influence heat gain/loss, bla bla (and this extends to a similarly advanced system for brake temp/wear).

Yeah, hate to brake it to You bxox, but like in shift one all those marvellous and complex features didn't make the handling believable-and actually I think You're the only person I know that still considers Shift 1 as a proper sim...which is absolutely fine, I appreciate consistency- and didn't made that absolute extreme setups actually reflected on the tyre degradation and grip...again how could they in 3 laps races?

It's pretty hardcore.

So You say I beg to disagree!

Shift is .. not a sim versus what?

Versus sims...
like the one I posted above and You just missed...n.p.

A game where you can't even change tyre pressure, tyre upgrade differences are simple lat g increases with no other effect and there's no brake tuning/heat/fade at all? Really?

Which game?
Did I mentioned any?
Or did I just put all of them in the same bag and compared it with an actual sim!C'mon lets be fair in the discussion...this isn't GT5 vs Shift You know me better than that!
That said after 1 hour of racing the same tyres around a track, I feel more tyre degradation in GT5-Online and Endurances, it's obviously not noticeable in the standard 3 lap things- than in Shift 2...there I said it.Not to mention the fuel consumption and the way it effects the weight of the car and, consequently, lap times!
*while dresses anti-flame suit*
Just out of curiosity...did You ever played GT5 to know it so well?
Because I care a little more about the actual inputs I can feel, as an user of some game physics-and since You've opened the door, GT5 that has actual pit work,as it should a proper sim, allows You to feel the tyre degradation and the damage model,the difference between fresh rubber warm rubber, worn rubber-pit-fresh rubber...and damage, you hit a wall or other car damage a virtual axle,feel the impact it has on the car's handling-pit- again feel the difference from the pit work and the arranged damage ...not just read about it!
Even so I don't consider it to be the "Real driving Simulator" or whatever...just a game...the best driving game available for the PS3 @ the current moment IMO.

I have done all the endurance races in Shift 2 and did not really notice any tyre degradation. Not really sure about temperatures, highly doubt they're just visual but I also don't seem to notice much difference if the tyres are 'hot' or cold.

That's exactly my point...



EDIT:

They share most of the same heating/wear parameters

Ok, sorry I thought, from some of Your previous posts, that You've considered that it was precisely the big difference\evolution from GTR2 to S2U.

Er, as far as I know it was a new "everything else" model they didn't get to use on S2U and the tyre model is their new tech. Almost everything else is still the old ISI system.


IanBell
We have the new physics engine but not the updated tyre model. The current model really is pretty excellent. I planned to add coolness such as flatspots leading to point sourced vibration and other small additions to the base that we have.

Sidewalls comment is interesting - especially given that if anything most people find it much too hard to control on a gamepad even with that . I think it's important to read it in the context of talking about GTR2 there - so we have eg.

"Real Sim" GTR2 = -50% too little flex/too much dropoff

"Totally Arcade" Shift = +5% too much flex/too little dropoff

EDIT 2:

FWIW I like the game, play it on a daily basis-Autolg can vouch for it- enjoy it post about it, etc...
I just don't take it for what it isn't, and I'm not "blinded" or biased for the hype of the moment and rave the game I'm currently playing and go bashing the one I played before...but that's just me...

 

[tribolik]

I do get better lap times once the tires heat up, and it not because of the standing start or the bad AI rolling start because I also check sector times and they usually start getting better on the 3rd to 5th sector depending on the car.

And in endurance races when I push too much sometimes I struggle with grip from around lap 15 onward.

But this discution will take us nowhere, been there, done that and I dont think Arvore will ever change his mind about the games cat. On the other hand I do learn a few things especialy with boxox and dr J. when ever a big argument takes place.

But what I really would like to learn or know is are the SU2 console users going to get the free lag version that seems to be included on the next PC patch???

 

[gogatrs]

I haven't been following S2U, but the "floaty" issue...
That's the exact word used to describe the feeling of a go kart when you're at the limit.
It should feel floaty if you're driving right...
Just my two cents.

 

[arvore]

I do get better lap times once the tires heat up, and it not because of the standing start or the bad AI rolling start because I also check sector times and they usually start getting better on the 3rd to 5th sector depending on the car.

True!The first two corners of every race one can feel the tyres changing from cold to warm-but it's almost the same distance no matter which car or track one chooses, like if it was timed or something,like I've said before a "mild" tyre temp. engine just to say it's there...- but that's just it...then nothing no difference from lap 3 to 9 or to 19, always the same grip...I can do exactly the same lap time-except for mistakes, or little tenths differences between sectors, which are normal- from lap 2 to 20!
We can try it online some day!💡

And in endurance races when I push too much sometimes I struggle with grip from around lap 15 onward.

Sincerely I don't!
And I've done them all more than once-even with the slower legends just for the fun of it.
And because it freezes if I take a fast car to them!

But this discution will take us nowhere, been there, done that and I dont think Arvore will ever change his mind about the games cat

.

It doesn't have to necessarily takes us somewhere to be interesting.
You even learn things from boxos and Dr.J
But to be accurate You might have a look a couple of posts up where I exemplified my opinion...:

SIMS==||==Racing games-specially on consoles, for various reasons like hardware limitations and market demands.

So why should I be the one changing my opinion?
I set a standard of what I consider to be a racing sim(=equal complex machine with hydraulics to transmit g-forces to the body of the "driver", state of the art software to simulate the various equations present in the interaction of a car with a track, wide triple screens for pheriferichal view,3D glasses,etc), for 1 minute take it for good-it's my own,although obviously debatable- now think again...Is S2U a driving sim?
Who should change opinion here...

But what I really would like to learn or know is are the SU2 console users going to get the free lag version that seems to be included on the next PC patch???

Which there is a thread to debate, right?

 

[GumShoe]

Stiffen up the default tunes, remove the extra bit of softening that was added for gamepad users and set all the steering locks the same for every car and Shift 2 can do everything GT5/everything else does, except landing a 100m jump or hitting a car at 200km/h won't end with a little thud and an 'as you were.'

I'm struggling to understand why so many people blatantly refuse to acknowledge that Shift 2 is as advanced as it is given all the evidence? Will that make your brain explode?

I blame the GT series in a way for where expectations come from; it's given people the impression all cars should be perfectly driveable at top speed under any circumstance first go on any track with no tuning or considerations required.

I just wish instead of making the default tunes driveable on all tracks in Shift 2 causing them to feel 'floaty,' they'd made the default tunes good for relatively smooth tracks with a warning they'll bottom out on the bumpiest tracks like Ebisu. Then you just need a new tune for one or two tracks, not a new tune for almost all tracks

 

[gogatrs]

What if they had a "recommended" tune for all tracks to give the newbies that dint know too much about tuning a chance to be able to compete on bumpier tracks.
Or any track for that matter.

It doesn't have to be a perfect tune, just something basic enough to make the car drivable...

 

[arvore]

Stiffen up the default tunes, remove the extra bit of softening that was added for gamepad users and set all the steering locks the same for every car and

Check the posts I made some of my setups public...there stiff enough for Ya?

Shift 2 can do everything GT5/everything else does,

Except taking fuel consumption and ACTUAL damage and tyre wear into account...ever did a 1 hour online race in GT5 with fuel and tyre wear enabled? Go try it...than do the same in shift 2-oh wait You can't, maximum is 25 lap races-tyre wear? What use could it have without the ability to pit and change them...no one would even want that, right?

except landing a 100m jump or hitting a car at 200km/h won't end with a little thud and an 'as you were.'

1st can't remember that many 200km\h jumps in say Monaco, Laguna Seca, Indy and Daytona road, Le Mans Ring,Suzuka...shall I go on?
Actually that is only in one or two fictional tracks...who cares 'bout them anyway...sim=real tracks right?

And it's not even true...take any plus 1000 PI car to Rouen short...take the last jump full throttle before the last kink...see 200km\h jumps in S2U!

2nd If You hit another car in GT5 in a online race-specially with damage on hard You won't call it "little thud", believe me!

I'm struggling to understand why so many people blatantly refuse to acknowledge that Shift 2 is as advanced as it is given all the evidence?

I'm struggling to understand why so many people blatantly refuse to acknowledge that others might have different opinions that S2U IS NOT A STATE OF THE ART SIM, despite how obvious it is?

Will that make your brain explode?

No, what about Yours?💡

I blame the GT series in a way for where expectations come from; it's given people the impression all cars should be perfectly driveable at top speed under any circumstance first go on any track with no tuning or considerations required.

Hmmm I'm guessing You never drove a RUF or a TVR-just to mention a few- in Confort or sports hard tyres with damage fuel consuption and damage on...did You?
We can try it if You like so I can spectate "that perfectly drivable"...it even doesn't have to be 'round the ring with rain and night and day transitions, as I once did for almost 2 hours, truly epic race!👍

I just wish instead of making the default tunes driveable on all tracks in Shift 2 causing them to feel 'floaty,' they'd made the default tunes good for relatively

FWIW I feel pretty comfortable with stock setups in most cars...actually I have most of the Legends DLC cars in stock form-having a little Autolog battle with Rom and others-I really think most of them-except the Daytona Coupé and the GT40 Mk1- are pretty drivable round any track with stock setups...it's about the core engine of the game physics the discussion is all about.

 

[boxox]

Yeah, hate to brake it to You bxox, but like in shift one all those marvellous and complex features didn't make the handling believable-and actually I think You're the only person I know that still considers Shift 1 as a proper sim...which is absolutely fine, I appreciate consistency- and didn't made that absolute extreme setups actually reflected on the tyre degradation and grip...again how could they in 3 laps races?

So You say I beg to disagree!

That's ok, and you can disagree with whatever you like. But it's not like we can't test this out - and it's really, really, really obvious that it does make a difference. As in - even in the most simple test imaginable (full lock, full power donut from the starting line) it produces quite measurable differences in behaviour off the line, turning circle, wear and heating pattern, distortion of the donut shape over time, and the time to tyre blowout. Once I get this down from 1.92gb of source fraps movies we can all take a look at it together in a youtube doubler and then everyone can judge for themselves.

I mean it's even down to a point where it took a bit to find a suitable test car which could consistently donut off the line without losing a tyre at min/max/std camber settings, and blow the tyres before the engine blew at each setting, depending on how fast it could push air through the radiator during the donut and how much resistance through the diff each camber setting gave. That's the kind of difference it makes - even just on the simplest possible test I could subject it to . Both per setting and per-car is pretty deep here.

Versus sims...
like the one I posted above and You just missed...n.p.

Which game?
Did I mentioned any?
Or did I just put all of them in the same bag and compared it with an actual sim!C'mon lets be fair in the discussion...this isn't GT5 vs Shift You know me better than that!
That said after 1 hour of racing the same tyres around a track, I feel more tyre degradation in GT5-Online and Endurances, it's obviously not noticeable in the standard 3 lap things- than in Shift 2...there I said it.Not to mention the fuel consumption and the way it effects the weight of the car and, consequently, lap times!

Interestingly - as with the stuff that was there but not really used in Shift 1 - each car has a fuel tank position and weight calculated (with its own position and moment arm and mass) in S2U. I mean - that's still pretty cool right?

*while dresses anti-flame suit*
Just out of curiosity...did You ever played GT5 to know it so well?

Don't own a PS3 - was going to be the game I bought one for though. Then got nervous about how good it was actually going to be at launch from the rebounding release dates (a sign that also worked out well as an anti-mark of quality for S2U 1.00 ). Decided to spend the money in Nepal instead - IMO - good move even if it did cost me an arm for a bit

I have played it in in-store demos though. I mean, it's not like I'm posting about "feel" or gameplay here - this is pretty objective stuff. I mean if there is some tuning section that goes really in depth into how each tyre compound reacts to different tyre pressures or how each car reacts to each brake upgrade then be my guest - show us. On the other hand we have people who - much like myself with Shift - have gone through and tested how stuff works and logged the results. So there's that, and then there's "feeling".

Because I care a little more about the actual inputs I can feel, as an user of some game physics-and since You've opened the door, GT5 that has actual pit work,as it should a proper sim, allows You to feel the tyre degradation and the damage model,the difference between fresh rubber warm rubber, worn rubber-pit-fresh rubber...and damage, you hit a wall or other car damage a virtual axle,feel the impact it has on the car's handling-pit- again feel the difference from the pit work and the arranged damage ...not just read about it!

Well, it's interesting you bring up damage - and how fake features are just painted on and irrelevant - given the whole "level 40" business. Which admittedly, I only read about, but it was still pretty funny stuff.

Even so I don't consider it to be the "Real driving Simulator" or whatever...just a game...the best driving game available for the PS3 @ the current moment IMO.

That's fine and you can like what you want - that is a totally subjective claim and only a douche would say you can't do that. But then when we get into stuff we do have a test for, we can find things out and disagree based on something other than our feelings.

Ok, sorry I thought, from some of Your previous posts, that You've considered that it was precisely the big difference\evolution from GTR2 to S2U.

Yep, I did catch the earlier edit before - the commands being the same are more a matter of it being designed to plug into the existing ISI system. So for example, while it uses the same "heating" and "transfer" parameters, how those are assessed is from something totally different to before. So a lot of stuff remains the same in effects but the input fed into it is much different.

 

[fatkrakr]

You are right hit a wall gioing top speed in gt5 with damage on does do alot to the driving. Hit a wall at slow speed with damage on and pretty much get the same damage. You cant even bump draft in gt5. Oh and then the drafting.