VERY Interesting comments from Ian Bell

[GumShoe]

Except taking fuel consumption and ACTUAL damage and tyre wear into account...ever did a 1 hour online race in GT5 with fuel and tyre wear enabled? Go try it...than do the same in shift 2-oh wait You can't, maximum is 25 lap races-tyre wear? What use could it have without the ability to pit and change them...no one would even want that, right?

Shift 2 max is 99 laps in quick race. Tyre wear does work, you just haven't noticed it. Suppose you haven't popped a tyre in Shift 2 either?... I'd rather not have pits than have a very average implementation of it. GT5's tyre wear is very simple.

1st can't remember that many 200km\h jumps in say Monaco, Laguna Seca, Indy and Daytona road, Le Mans Ring,Suzuka...shall I go on?
Actually that is only in one or two fictional tracks...who cares 'bout them anyway...sim=real tracks right?

I was a bit unclear there, I meant controlling the cars at that speed in general. And I was referring to the landing of jumps, which are there, so people will care.

2nd If You hit another car in GT5 in a online race-specially with damage on hard You won't call it "little thud", believe me!

Fair enough.

I'm struggling to understand why so many people blatantly refuse to acknowledge that others might have different opinions that S2U IS NOT A STATE OF THE ART SIM, despite how obvious it is?

Is is compared to what else it out there, it's been pointed out quite a few times what and how Shift 2 is simulating, whether it 'feels' right or not. It doesn't feel right to you, fair enough, it does to me. But even if it didn't I can still acknowledge how powerful the engine is.

Hmmm I'm guessing You never drove a RUF or a TVR-just to mention a few- in Confort or sports hard tyres with damage fuel consuption and damage on...did You?
We can try it if You like so I can spectate "that perfectly drivable"...it even doesn't have to be 'round the ring with rain and night and day transitions, as I once did for almost 2 hours, truly epic race!👍

Yes I have (RUF, not TVR), throttle management is about all that's needed to stop the car spinning, curbs do nothing, walls do nothing, off track needs more throttle management. There aren't any other subtleties to consider for me, the car stays level and controllable in any situation as long as I don't give too much throttle.

FWIW I feel pretty comfortable with stock setups in most cars...actually I have most of the Legends DLC cars in stock form-having a little Autolog battle with Rom and others-I really think most of them-except the Daytona Coupé and the GT40 Mk1- are pretty drivable round any track with stock setups...it's about the core engine of the game physics the discussion is all about.

I have a suspicion they may have tuned the legends cars with a stiffer default setup than the rest, given the all round opinion that they feel better for the most part out of the box. Unfortunately I don't have the DLC yet, but soon will.

 

[arvore]

That's ok, and you can disagree with whatever you like. But it's not like we can't test this out - and it's really, really, really obvious that it does make a difference. As in - even in the most simple test imaginable (full lock, full power donut from the starting line) it produces quite measurable differences in behaviour off the line, turning circle, wear and heating pattern, distortion of the donut shape over time, and the time to tyre blowout. Once I get this down from 1.92gb of source fraps movies we can all take a look at it together in a youtube doubler and then everyone can judge for themselves.

That's fine and I appreciate the effort some guys, like Yourself and others, take to make those amateur test, exploring the limits of the game about, like ,input lag and stuff!And You can even prove there is a mild tyre temperature model that in extreme situations like doing consecutive donuts it's noticeable but in normal race situations it isn't and that is really what I care about. how the game Physics that my PS3 + S2U provides impact my experience of the game not an ultimate "scientific" proof that it's there...

I mean it's even down to a point where it took a bit to find a suitable test car which could consistently donut off the line without losing a tyre at min/max/std camber settings, and blow the tyres before the engine blew at each setting, depending on how fast it could push air through the radiator during the donut and how much resistance through the diff each camber setting gave. That's the kind of difference it makes - even just on the simplest possible test I could subject it to . Both per setting and per-car is pretty deep here.

See boxox, we're talking about different games here...that would never happen in the PS3, Take any car You like in S2U in the PS3 do as many donuts You like see if the tyre or the engine will blow, will You?

Interestingly - as with the stuff that was there but not really used in Shift 1 - each car has a fuel tank position and weight calculated (with its own position and moment arm and mass) in S2U. I mean - that's still pretty cool right?

Cool, but how does that impact the handling of the cars?The experience of the users?
Does it have fuel evolving conditions?
I mean I don't see any difference while racing...full tank, not so full tank!

Don't own a PS3 - was going to be the game I bought one for though. Then got nervous about how good it was actually going to be at launch from the rebounding release dates (a sign that also worked out well as an anti-mark of quality for S2U 1.00 ). Decided to spend the money in Nepal instead - IMO - good move even if it did cost me an arm for a bit

Good choice I would trade mine with GT5,S2U and a couple of others to a trip to NEPAL too, even if I knew I would break one arm!

I have played it in in-store demos though. I mean, it's not like I'm posting about "feel" or gameplay here - this is pretty objective stuff.

No I'm sorry it isn't...it's like debating who is the best Basketball team ever...I say it was the M.J. Bulls...where are You from? I 'm betting You won't agree.

I mean if there is some tuning section that goes really in depth into how each tyre compound reacts to different tyre pressures or how each car reacts to each brake upgrade then be my guest - show us.

Well-actually there is an extensive tuning menu where, guess what?, changing downforce values really impacts the handling of the cars on straightstop speed) and corners(grip) and effects tyre wear and consequently pit strategy in long races...pretty cool right?
You should try it sometime, I can poit You to the "right" crowd.
Than You have for instance a much more extensive gear box tuning menu...that it's probably the most important setting for impacting lap times in a racing game-adjusting the gear ratio to the track-than S2U where for instance You can't tune some cars to not rev limit in the final gear in tracks like Monza or R.A., others You can't tune to be able to engage 6th gear in most of the tracks...

I can show You 9 different compounds of tyres in GT5 all with different grips and handling-although to be honest they pretty much wear alike:tdown:- and with little subtle things like : Confort Softs are better in the rain than Sports Hard-which are a "better" compound, some say it's because they are wider so they "wash" more watter accumulated on the track...like IRL... pretty cool, no?

On the other hand we have people who - much like myself with Shift - have gone through and tested how stuff works and logged the results. So there's that, and then there's "feeling".

C'mon Boxox it's not like we're talking 'bout scientific test that proves things as facts are we?
Although I'm eager to see them, but just for the sake of the discussion and it's objectiveness can You borrow a PS3 with S2U from a friend?
Just to be certain that will be talking about the very same reality.

Well, it's interesting you bring up damage - and how fake features are just painted on and irrelevant - given the whole "level 40" business. Which admittedly, I only read about, but it was still pretty funny stuff.

That's ok I've got it You only read for the first week or so...
Actually there is no offline damage in GT5.level 40 or not...online on the other end...

That's fine and you can like what you want - that is a totally subjective claim and only a douche would say you can't do that.

Thanks for" giving" me that!

But then when we get into stuff we do have a test for, we can find things out and disagree based on something other than our feelings.

Lets talk and take conclusions after we see those tests, agreed?
In the PS3 remember?

EDIT:

You are right hit a wall gioing top speed in gt5 with damage on does do alot to the driving. Hit a wall at slow speed with damage on and pretty much get the same damage. You cant even bump draft in gt5. Oh and then the drafting.

All true, but I guess it's better than no damage at all, no?
Than again who was claiming GT5 was perfect or even a sim?
Isn't there a whole forum to bash on GT5?Why do it here...?

 

[GumShoe]

I can show You 9 different compounds of tyres in GT5 all with different grips and handling-although to be honest they pretty much wear alike:tdown:- and with little subtle things like : Confort Softs are better in the rain than Sports Hard-which are a "better" compound, some say it's because they are wider so they "wash" more watter accumulated on the track...like IRL... pretty cool, no?

This made me chuckle. You realise in GT5 that the 9 'different' compounds are are exactly the same tyre with 'Lateral grip +X' added right?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&highlight=lateral

Read the bit in red. BTW Tyre width isn't modelled in GT5. pretty cool, no?

 

[boxox]

Should mention - camber is the only change made and the setup is totally stock in all videos other than suspension upgrade being installed and camber altered.

 

[tinram]

This made me chuckle. You realise in GT5 that the 9 'different' compounds are are exactly the same tyre with 'Lateral grip +X' added right?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&highlight=lateral

Read the bit in red. BTW Tyre width isn't modelled in GT5. pretty cool, no?

That's still 9 different handling tires.

I do not see the point of talking about GT5 when shift2's shortcomings are brought up. As if a bad GT5 will make shift2 better, that's just silly bananas.

 

[vrooom]

...tune Your car with maximum camber...do 20 laps with it...tune minimum camber then, do the same 20 laps.
Then check the lap times of the final 5 laps in each race and tell me if You notice any difference...

You are either lying or you haven't made the test you are suggesting with a powerful RWD car. I had to increase the rear negative camber (more vertical tire) to achieve more uniform temperature and tire degradation. Without this adjustment the inside of the rear tire you get extremely hot and after the mid-race point the car would become unstable (and later uncontrollable) due to the increased and non-uniform tire wear.

If there wasn't the physics hud I wouldn't know I had to adjust camber. So it isn't a gimmick or a visual feature as you insist contrary to all evidence in the last posts.

Also, out of curiosity, how do you adjust camber setting in GT5 without being aware of the tire temperature readouts (inner, middle, outer)? Camber adjustments need knowledge of tire temperature and must be adjusted along with tire pressure to optimize the tire contact patch.

 

[RomKnight]

Take any car You like in S2U in the PS3 do as many donuts You like see if the tyre or the engine will blow, will You?

I have to say you have damage on but not the "full" version of it.

I actually did some donuts to check that after trying to drift (never again) after buying the game.

It doesn't take long to blow the tires and engines do blow up with "full damage" option. That was actual a complaint in invitational A

 

[DrJustice]

This made me chuckle. You realise in GT5 that the 9 'different' compounds are are exactly the same tyre with 'Lateral grip +X' added right?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&highlight=lateral

Read the bit in red. BTW Tyre width isn't modelled in GT5. pretty cool, no?

That article needs some critical comment.

Of course tires of increasingly grippy compounds are modelled as having increasing lateral grip (or grip in any direction). What else would they model? No sim actually models the tire compound itself; that would be a physical simulation at a microscopic, even molecular level, and it would require a similarly detailed modeling of the road surface. As it happens, the effects of the chemical composition and construction of tires vs slip angles are reduced to table lookups in sims.

The comment about tire width doesn't mean much either. There's no testing method withing the game that can determine that with certainty. To my knowledge tire friction increases proportionally with the size of the contact patch, so it's natural that the relative grip increases by a similar amount for a Cooper and a ZR1 as they're equipped with increasingly grippy tires.

Apart from the observation that grippier tires give more grip, which is hardly surprising, my conclusion is that the referenced article, is pure conjecture.

(These comments have nothing to do with the merits, or lack thereof, in any specific sim products - they're entirely general)

DJ
--

 

[arvore]

Shift 2 max is 99 laps in quick race. Tyre wear does work, you just haven't noticed it.

To be honest I didn't even knew there was 99 possible laps in quick race...online is 25, I have to check, than again what's the point of doing a "quick" race of 99 laps? For what 200 credits?
Lets assume tyres do wear...say in lap 40 they're completely worn...what do You do, quit the race?

Suppose you haven't popped a tyre in Shift 2 either?... I'd rather not have pits than have a very average implementation of it.

I had wheels come off, tyres blowing never...and I play a lot!

GT5's tyre wear is very simple.[/

Why does any discussion about S2U Physics ends up in GT5?
When analyzing Obama's performance do You keep coming back to G.W. Bush?!

I was a bit unclear there, I meant controlling the cars at that speed in general. And I was referring to the landing of jumps, which are there, so people will care.

Again there is one location where that is true-Cape ring- aside from the offline career I should have played it online once or twice, that's how I care...it's a fictional track.
But I just showed You in the other post there are also surrealist jumps in S2U...they're both just...games.

Is is compared to what else it out there, it's been pointed out quite a few times what and how Shift 2 is simulating, whether it 'feels' right or not. It doesn't feel right to you, fair enough, it does to me. But even if it didn't I can still acknowledge how powerful the engine is.

Compare to the video I've posted above from a proper sim!
We're not talking if the engine is powerful or not...we're talking how complex the gaming physics are and how tyre temperature impacts-in normal racing conditions, if I wanted to do donuts I would buy DIRT 3 and play Ghyncana:idea:- the handling of the car, lap after lap!

Yes I have (RUF, not TVR), throttle management is about all that's needed to stop the car spinning, curbs do nothing, walls do nothing, off track needs more throttle management. There aren't any other subtleties to consider for me, the car stays level and controllable in any situation as long as I don't give too much throttle.

I have yet to see that throttle management...might be the ring C.H., Rain and weather transitions...then I'll believe You, after seeing it!

I have a suspicion they may have tuned the legends cars with a stiffer default setup than the rest, given the all round opinion that they feel better for the most part out of the box. Unfortunately I don't have the DLC yet, but soon will.

How can You tell if You still haven't got it?
Assumptions...ah right You're doing the same with the game's physics...makes sense, in the context of things.

This made me chuckle. You realise in GT5 that the 9 'different' compounds are are exactly the same tyre with 'Lateral grip +X' added right?

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160821&highlight=lateral

Wow, You've learned all of this reading an entire post here in GT Planet...great.
I don't want to be cruel...but how does a kid sitting in his sofa @ his home doing donuts or whatever he thinks it's proper can offer any "evidence" about anything in the way the tyres are coded in GT5?C´mon

Read the bit in red. BTW Tyre width isn't modelled in GT5. pretty cool, no?

I'll even quote it for You:

The only thing that changes is where the scale starts for various cars. (i.e. for the ZR1, CH = .85g and for the '71 Cuda, CH = .80g). It also appears that the width of the tire is not being considered in the grip equations; for any specific tire type, the '02 Mini Cooper has the same amount of lateral grip as the '09 Corvette ZR1! And as softer tires are equipped, the amount of grip increases equally for both cars.

1st I never stated that tyre temperature was effectively modelled in GT5, I said some people believe that...to make a parallelism with shift, to show that the hype for a game distortes one's objectivity and people start feeling things that aren't even there...take the patches for example, a simple piece of software,right?
Find someone in GT5 or S2U that agree on the effects of the patch in the game play...That's how subjective this discussion is, no matter how much "hard" empirical evidence people try to gather...on their own.Like that guy making wild guesses saying it "appears" no to be width taken in consideration in GT5 tyre model-there is one after all-great evidence.We all like to play a little "software CSI" don't we?

That's still 9 different handling tires.

Not for some people no...it doesn't have colours showing the differences in grip...so it can't be there...despite the differences in grip levels being noticeable by any player...they should have hired this Ian Bell character to male their marketing...he sure writes well.

I do not see the point of talking about GT5 when shift2's shortcomings are brought up. As if a bad GT5 will make shift2 better, that's just silly bananas.

Me neither, but that's just how many people "work", what can we do?

You are either lying or you haven't made the test you are suggesting with a powerful RWD car.

Are GT1-when they don't freeze- or GT3 powerful enough for You?

I had to increase the rear negative camber (more vertical tire) to achieve more uniform temperature and tire degradation. Without this adjustment the inside of the rear tire you get extremely hot and after the mid-race point the car would become unstable (and later uncontrollable) due to the increased and non-uniform tire wear.

If there wasn't the physics hud I wouldn't know I had to adjust camber.

That's a big contradiction right there...one doesn't need a hud to feel the grip changes in tyres, if they are actually there, the fact that You only acknowledged that looking at the "telemetry menu" flashy lights show how poorly implemented those features were.

]So it isn't a gimmick or a visual feature as you insist contrary to all evidence in the last posts.

Yes it is as You unwillingly showed everyone in this post...I ask again what evidence?

Also, out of curiosity, how do you adjust camber setting in GT5 without being aware of the tire temperature readouts (inner, middle, outer)? Camber adjustments need knowledge of tire temperature and must be adjusted along with tire pressure to optimize the tire contact patch.

I can do that...whenever we're having a debate about GT5 tuning...in the proper forum and in a proper thread!

I have to say you have damage on but not the "full" version of it.

As full as the game allows I'm afraid.

I actually did some donuts to check that after trying to drift (never again) after buying the game.

I never tried it extensively...like 10 mins straight...but I never saw a tyre blowing in S2U, only wheels coming out.

It doesn't take long to blow the tires and engines do blow up with "full damage" option. That was actual a complaint in invitational A

Yep, I actually thought it was a cool feature, even made a post about it, than people told me it was a bug...and it really is, it happens despite of pace You take around the ring no matter how hard You push, or if You just having a site view...and it's always in the same place.

 

[vrooom]

@arvore
You really read only what you want to read...
Let me try to explain with bullets points and maybe (I doubt it) you will understand...

Endurance Race...
20 laps...
GT1 cars...
Elite handling mode, all driving aids off, full damage on...

1st try with default camber settings:
I finished 7th because after the 10th lap the rear tire grip was extremely reduced and after the 15th lap I was spinning because the car was uncontrollable

Next I try live tuning mode with the same car, same track
After 3 laps I check the telemetry hud and I see that the inner part of the rear tire was extremely hot (yellow) while the outside cold (blue-green). Obviously there was too much rear negative camber and I was using only half of the tire thread. I corrected the camber and the tire pressure to achieve uniform temperature (inner, middle, outside: all green). Without the telemetry hud I wouldn't be able to achieve uniform tire temperature because I wouldn't know which settings to adjust.

2nd try with new camber settings:
The car is easier to control, the tire performance remains the same for most of the race and only in the last 5 laps I experience a slight drop in rear tire grip but the car still remains controllable. I easily win the race.

Conclusions

• There is tire degradation.
• The ammount of tire degradation depends on the car class, tuning settings and driving style.
• With the telemetry hud you can adjust with confidence camber, tire pressure, suspension travel, bump stops etc because it provides you with real time data about the car and tire condition. Therefore it's not a gimmick.

 

[tribolik]

That article needs some critical comment.

Of course tires of increasingly grippy compounds are modelled as having increasing lateral grip (or grip in any direction). What else would they model? No sim actually models the tire compound itself; that would be a physical simulation at a microscopic, even molecular level, and it would require a similarly detailed modeling of the road surface. As it happens, the effects of the chemical composition and construction of tires vs slip angles are reduced to table lookups in sims.

The comment about tire width doesn't mean much either. There's no testing method withing the game that can determine that with certainty. To my knowledge tire friction increases proportionally with the size of the contact patch, so it's natural that the relative grip increases by a similar amount for a Cooper and a ZR1 as they're equipped with increasingly grippy tires.

Apart from the observation that grippier tires give more grip, which is hardly surprising, my conclusion is that the referenced article, is pure conjecture.

(These comments have nothing to do with the merits, or lack thereof, in any specific sim products - they're entirely general)

DJ
--

I agree with your first conclusion about compounds but IMO I think he is right when he draws the conclusion that they didnt model tire width - he took two cars with diferent tire widths and same compound and that should give diferent results like IRL, but it didnt... so thats the only conclusion he can draw... its pretty basic maths

I had wheels come off, tyres blowing never...and I play a lot!

Did you even take the time to watch Boxox videos? because when I am and was arguing with you I took the time to read your entire posts...

He blows two tires on the first video in the first 70 seconds of the test... try that on GT5 you will be doing donuts all week with no results.

I also play a lot and I had tires blow on me on drift events (on the PS3 mind you)of course if you dont drift the tires will last longer... and I took the time to do the same test with similar results also in the PS3 (all stock settings including camber)...

 

[HeadsoupBob]

..

 

[arvore]

That article needs some critical comment.

It's not even an article...just a post here @GTP!


@Vroom:

Look I won't discuss Your personal experience with the game.Although one could argue that after 2 attempts in the third You were more familiar with the track\car and confident so You've played better than in the 1st go...
But in my PS3 with my game the tyre wear is more noticeable visually in the hud with flashy colours than in actual handling impact!

 

[vrooom]

Since this thread is about interesting comments from Ian Bell, I find the following comment interesting and encouraging:

Don't listen to vgchartz figures We've done a LOT more than that. They update their figures when the official in house data comes out in another publication.

So maybe after all the sales are good enough and there will be a sequel to Shift 2 (Shift 3 or the WMD)! :tup:

 

[arvore]

Did you even take the time to watch Boxox videos? because when I am and was arguing with you I took the time to read your entire posts...

Yep, they're pretty cool!And...?

He blows two tires on the first video in the first 70 seconds of the test...

In the PC right?

try that on GT5 you will be doing donuts all week with no results.

Again Charles, should I remind You we're not talking about GT5 here?
I'm not comparing the two games-only in response to people statements aimed at me, because everyone keeps doing that.-I specifically posted a video of what I consider to be a sim...why always going back to beat the same dead horse?!
The thing is I don't really need to consider a VIDEO GAME the ultimate sim experience to enjoy it and to find it entertaining, but to each one it's own, I guess...

I also play a lot and I had tires blow on me on drift events... of course if you dont drift the tires will last longer...
Last edited by tribolik;

Can't tell don't drift...but maybe the drift Physics have different default setup parameters, don't know...but You're playing the game extensively for what? 2 months? How many times did You had a tyre blow in a proper race event?

So maybe after all the sales are good enough and there will be a sequel to Shift 2 (Shift 3 or the WMD)!

I wouldn't mind...but judging the success of the game for the amount of online activity...compared to other games...like SHIFT 1...I can't believe it, as a matter of fact SMS already dropped the ball on E.A. or vice-versa,no?

 

[DrJustice]

I agree with your first conclusion about compounds but IMO I think he is right when he draws the conclusion that they didnt model tire width - he took two cars with diferent tire widths and same compound and that should give diferent results like IRL, but it didnt... so thats the only conclusion he can draw... its pretty basic maths

There is no evidence there for his conclusion. He does not present any measurements for the effects of (the lack of) tire widths. The total relative lateral grip depends on a lot more factors than just the tire compound and width; e.g. weight, center of gravity, suspension geometry and setup. What he has to go on is the increased grip with increasing grippy tires, and that's where I'd expect to see the same relative increase, given that the other factors mentioned above are constant. In any case, it's faulty "science".

Actually, to some extent you can, and Shift 2 does model different compounds. They have different heat and sidewall flex characteristics among others, and two tyres of the same profile and dimensions can have different behaviour.

Yes, you can model chemical compounds on an actual physical level, but not in real time in a consumer level simulation system for a lot of wheels.

I'll give you that there's modeling going on, but in a simplified form, using tables and coefficients that covers for a larger and more complex underlying dynamic system, ref. True Physics as discussed earlier in the thread. E.g. tire wall flex is most probably a coefficient and/or a table, not a real time simulation of actual tire deformation (which is very complex and needs at least a FEM process). Giving tires with different compounds, widths, profiles and construction different behaviour can all be done using different sets of tables and coefficients.

My point then, is that the modeling in real time consumer simulations is very simplified, and the complex physical processes are usually represented by way of lookup tables and coefficients being crunched by very simple math, as compared to the extremely computation intensive True Physics™. And sometimes methods like that are sufficient for the task at hand, so it's not "wrong" as such - quite the opposite; a good approximation that gives the expected and intended behaviour is efficient and good engineering.

Of course, if any devs wants to tell us about the exact processes they use for their physical models, I'd be very interested to hear about it. I fear that the details are trade secrets though, apart from what they've told us about the use of broadly covering tables and coefficients. In any case, I'm more than willing to learn something new in this respect.

DJ
--

 

[tribolik]

Yep, they're pretty cool!And...?



In the PC right?

I did the same test with same results on the PS3... Im very sorry to disapont you... I already wrote that in the previous post but you chose not to read it.... so to answer your question.. no. also on the PS3... I can upload the video to youtube if you wish...

There is no evidence there for his conclusion. He does not present any measurements for the effects of (the lack of) tire widths. The total relative lateral grip depends on a lot more factors than just the tire compound and width; e.g. weight, center of gravity, suspension geometry and setup. What he has to go on is the increased grip with increasing grippy tires, and that's where I'd expect to see the same relative increase, given that the other factors mentioned above are constant. In any case, it's faulty "science".

--

Well from what he says he did get very similar results to the official tests on some cars and others with larger (stock) wheels didnt but yeah I would have to take his word for it because I dont know what kind of tests he made and didnt see him doing them...

 

[DrJustice]

...FWIW I like the game, play it on a daily basis-Autolg can vouch for it- enjoy it post about it, etc...
I just don't take it for what it isn't, and I'm not "blinded" or biased for the hype of the moment and rave the game I'm currently playing and go bashing the one I played before...but that's just me...

No, it's not just you

I get enjoyment from this game/sim too. As I've touched upon in earlier posts, there need be no conflict between enjoying a sim and also taking an enthusiastic interest in discussing the finer points of simming and "fight" for the betterment of simulations. We don't live in a black and white world - in fact it's all the shades in between that make life interesting, isn't it? 💡

DJ
--

 

[RomKnight]

@arvore

It only took a couple of minutes. But I guess it'll depend on tire pressure...

Never happened to me in invitational A but I did blew up an engine once. I had one of the kids using the H-shifter from 6th to 3rd in one pass while I was full throttle...

I guarantee you it takes a second for the engine to shut up

 

[arvore]

I did the same test with same results on the PS3... Im very sorry to disapont you...

Nah, no disappointment at all, it's actually a good thing!
I have to remember to be careful not to blow tyres if I ever feel like doing non stop donuts in drift mode-noted!

so to answer your question.. no. also on the PS3... I can upload the video to youtube if you wish...

Yes , Charles I would, not out of not trusting You-I obviously take Your word for good:tup:-just out of curiosity.

I already wrote that in the previous post but you chose not to read it....

Hmmm, I've must have missed it.
Talking about that You've also missed this part of my post(among others ) that I would like You to address in name of clarification:

Me:
Can't tell don't drift...but maybe the drift Physics have different default setup parameters, don't know...but You're playing the game extensively for what? 2 months? How many times did You had a tyre blow in a proper race event?

Oh, I must add really tyre blows-like in Boxox video, not the wheel randomly splitting off without apparent reason, like You hit an invisible obstacle-that's a bug, unfortunately.

Well from what he says he did get very similar results to the official tests on some cars and others with larger (stock) wheels didnt but yeah I would have to take his word for it because I dont know what kind of tests he made and didnt see him doing them...

That's kind of the whole point....they're just curious users making videos in their houses...hardly "evidence" in a proper debate!

No, it's not just you

I get enjoyment from this game/sim too. As I've touched upon in earlier posts, there need be no conflict between enjoying a sim and also taking an enthusiastic interest in discussing the finer points of simming and "fight" for the betterment of simulations. We don't live in a black and white world - in fact it's all the shades in between that make life interesting... 💡

DJ
--

Thank God!!!
Some common sense!

 

[tribolik]

I poped two tires in 20 seconds but the youtube upload feature in the game only lets you upload 10 seconds and I think one tire blown is enough to proove the point. Quick Race - time attack - Monza 58 - Nissan GTR



Unfortunatly the tire that blew was on the other side of the car but you can hear it and in the end when I drive to the finish line you can see both tires blown and sparkles cflying of the side of the car... if yo wish I will upload that part also

EDIT:

 

[arvore]

I poped two tires in 20 seconds but the youtube upload feature in the game only lets you upload 10 seconds and I think one tire blown is enough to proove the point. Quick Race - time attack - Monza 58 - Nissan GTR

*video*

Unfortunatly the tire that blew was on the other side of the car but you can hear it and in the end when I drive to the finish line you can see both tires blown and sparkles cflying of the side of the car... if yo wish I will upload that part also

No,no I'm clarified...
Sooo note to self:

I have to remember to be careful not to blow tyres if I ever feel like doing non stop donuts in drift mode-noted!

But You forgot to address this:

Can't tell don't drift...but maybe the drift Physics have different default setup parameters, don't know...but You're playing the game extensively for what? 2 months? How many times did You had a tyre blow in a proper race event?

Oh, I must add really tyre blows-like in Boxox video, not the wheel randomly splitting off without apparent reason, like You hit an invisible obstacle-that's a bug, unfortunately.

 

[tribolik]

Forgot to adress what? I dont get it? it was a time attack not a drift event - is that what you are talking about? if you dont believe me try it out for yourself, spinning is very easy and doesnt require any kind of skill... and Im no good at drifing thats why I pop tires when I try to do it...

Edit I just noticed I curious thing after seing my last video - the tire I blew last doesnt make as much sparkles as the tire I blew before - and I assume that it is because the first one was completly shredded from forcing it on the road until I blew the other one... cool feature.

 

[plate88]

@ tribolik, Nice lap. Wish I could do a lap on the Nurburgring without the game freezing.

 

[tribolik]

@ tribolik, Nice lap. Wish I could do a lap on the Nurburgring without the game freezing.

Yeah so would I but theres a way that the game wont freeze... take low PP stock cars to the track

 

[arvore]

Forgot to adress what? I dont get it? it was a time attack not a drift event - is that what you are talking about? if you dont believe me try it out for yourself, spinning is very easy and doesnt require any kind of skill... and Im no good at drifing thats why I pop tires when I try to do it...

Sorry probably I didn't made myself clear...I was asking how many times,after playing the game extensively for plus than 2 months, did You actually had a tyre blow?

Yeah so would I but theres a way that the game wont freeze... take low PP stock cars to the track

I like that

But Your obviously right, we should be able to get any car in any track we want without the game freezing on us!

 

[boxox]

Just to compress this into one slightly unmanageable long post..

That article needs some critical comment.

Of course tires of increasingly grippy compounds are modelled as having increasing lateral grip (or grip in any direction). What else would they model?

Well, one thing we might expect (as of, say, about 1998) is a model for longitudinal grip. From memory this is actually what spawned the rest of the GT5 tests - someone noticing that tyre upgrades had absolutely no effect on braking distances.

No sim actually models the tire compound itself; that would be a physical simulation at a microscopic, even molecular level, and it would require a similarly detailed modeling of the road surface. As it happens, the effects of the chemical composition and construction of tires vs slip angles are reduced to table lookups in sims.

Some do use lookup tables where speed is really of the essence, I'm sure, but "the" model for accuracy for quite some time has been variations on Pacejka's "Magic Formula" (which might seem a semantic difference but it's called "formula" not "table" for a reason, even if it kinda-sorta-does produce curves that can function as such ).

But PMF and lookup tables aren't the only option. In the last 5 years or so, fast versions of another kind of model have started appearing in games - physical tyre models (aka "analytical" and "brush" tyre models). Rather than using a formula to generate a slip curve for a tyre of known dimensions under different load and camber, these use a physical simulation (think a big spikey wireframe) of the tyre sidewall, rim and carcass, each with its own positional extents and resistances to movement. So rather than using the formula to lookup how much of the contact patch is in contact with the ground, a physical model (matching the tyre's dimensions - width, height, rim size, aspect) is deformed against the exact surface it's pressed against, and the contact patch shape and grip (and sidewall deformation and heating and whatever else) is derived directly from what the physical model says it's doing.

So no more guesstimating what the tyre ought to be doing or what the slip curve ought to move to as the tyre condition changes - you have the tyres already sitting in memory, and finding out the shape of the contact patch and the deformation of the rest of the tyre has already been worked out. That's what we're looking at in Shift. FWIW I think LFS was actually the first working implementation of this in a commercial racing game.

There's a great article here from Dave Kaemmer on the limitations of the PMF model and their attempts to build a physical model for iRacing.

The comment about tire width doesn't mean much either. There's no testing method withing the game that can determine that with certainty. To my knowledge tire friction increases proportionally with the size of the contact patch, so it's natural that the relative grip increases by a similar amount for a Cooper and a ZR1 as they're equipped with increasingly grippy tires.

Apart from the observation that grippier tires give more grip, which is hardly surprising, my conclusion is that the referenced article, is pure conjecture.

(These comments have nothing to do with the merits, or lack thereof, in any specific sim products - they're entirely general)
--

This is a huge can of worms but briefly-

a) friction is not solely dependent on size (this is kind of a "would you rather be hit by a tonne of bricks or a tonne of feathers" thing here )

b) ideally, the lateral g increase would not be at all linear from switching to different compounds, and is certainly not the only thing that should change

c) from testing, only the starting G figure changes, so we have different dimensions, and compounds, all producing exactly the same lateral g increase at each stage regardless of anything else.

There is no evidence there for his conclusion. He does not present any measurements for the effects of (the lack of) tire widths. The total relative lateral grip depends on a lot more factors than just the tire compound and width; e.g. weight, center of gravity, suspension geometry and setup. What he has to go on is the increased grip with increasing grippy tires, and that's where I'd expect to see the same relative increase, given that the other factors mentioned above are constant. In any case, it's faulty "science".

It's not perfectly linear with wider tyres and depends on other things now?

Again I can't help but think you're leaving out the most grievous wound inflicted here - the total lack of any impact on the longitudinal behaviour of the tyre. It seems like we have two real possibilities:

a) GT5's model is done properly all the way down, but is so ingenious that they painstakingly worked out the exact tyre size/load/aspect ratios to produce identical behavioural impact from each car switching to different compounds/tyre sizes, while taking away the exact amount of longitudinal grip (this would be an interesting looking tyre) that upgrade would produce in order to balance the cars acceleration/braking performance.

b) GT5's model is actually pretty simple minded and doesn't actually model width, height, or aspect, in any dynamic sense, and the upgrade is a simple % modifier with a totally linear effect on all tyres and all compounds on all cars.

Yes, you can model chemical compounds on an actual physical level, but not in real time in a consumer level simulation system for a lot of wheels.

If I can presume a bit here - it seems like you think there are really only two methods anyone can use.

1) full fluid dynamics simulation at an atomic scale

2) lookup tables

There are many many many steps between those two things

I'll give you that there's modeling going on, but in a simplified form, using tables and coefficients that covers for a larger and more complex underlying dynamic system, ref. True Physics as discussed earlier in the thread. E.g. tire wall flex is most probably a coefficient and/or a table, not a real time simulation of actual tire deformation (which is very complex and needs at least a FEM process). Giving tires with different compounds, widths, profiles and construction different behaviour can all be done using different sets of tables and coefficients.

Not true. Even without any pure "physics" data changing, tyre behaviour can be altered in Shift simply by changing to a different tyre model (that is, the 3d object model itself) on the car. Two things exist in those - geometry defining the tyre's visual appearance, and bones attached to the left/right sidewall, rim, and tread surface.

My point then, is that the modeling in real time consumer simulations is very simplified, and the complex physical processes are usually represented by way of lookup tables and coefficients being crunched by very simple math, as compared to the extremely computation intensive True Physics™. And sometimes methods like that are sufficient for the task at hand, so it's not "wrong" as such - quite the opposite; a good approximation that gives the expected and intended behaviour is efficient and good engineering.

Of course, if any devs wants to tell us about the exact processes they use for their physical models, I'd be very interested to hear about it. I fear that the details are trade secrets though, apart from what they've told us about the use of broadly covering tables and coefficients. In any case, I'm more than willing to learn something new in this respect.

DJ
--

There's a little depth on it in an interview Eero and Doug gave in Autosimsport magazine .... v3.5 or 5.3 or so I think. But otherwise you could read the LFS or iRacing tyre model blogs - they're working on very similar pseudo-physical models.

 

[boxox]

Forgot to adress what? I dont get it? it was a time attack not a drift event - is that what you are talking about? if you dont believe me try it out for yourself, spinning is very easy and doesnt require any kind of skill... and Im no good at drifing thats why I pop tires when I try to do it...

Edit I just noticed I curious thing after seing my last video - the tire I blew last doesnt make as much sparkles as the tire I blew before - and I assume that it is because the first one was completly shredded from forcing it on the road until I blew the other one... cool feature.

Yep, the tyre carcass continues to be modelled even after it blows. Also, the visual sparks effect is generated straight from physics and only sparks depending on the rim's contact with the ground - so you see slightly different sparking from each test.

There is a lot of cool stuff in those videos - did you see for instance how on the extreme camber tests, on the left inside tyre, the inner/middle section gets hot, steadily wears down once it reaches peak temperature, then lowers the car as the tyre loses tread/stiffness and puts the exterior sidewall in closer contact with the ground, which now has all the stiffness/grip left on it, and heats up much faster than the first two sections did? Or the way that camber settings altered the tyre heating/contact differently and produced different donut patterns from the driven right side wheels once the two left side tyres blew? That is just some awesome stuff.

 

[tribolik]

Yep, the tyre carcass continues to be modelled even after it blows. Also, the visual sparks effect is generated straight from physics and only sparks depending on the rim's contact with the ground - so you see slightly different sparking from each test.

There is a lot of cool stuff in those videos - did you see for instance how on the extreme camber tests, on the left inside tyre, the inner/middle section gets hot, steadily wears down once it reaches peak temperature, then lowers the car as the tyre loses tread/stiffness and puts the exterior sidewall in closer contact with the ground, which now has all the stiffness/grip left on it, and heats up much faster than the first two sections did? Or the way that camber settings altered the tyre heating/contact differently and produced different donut patterns from the driven right side wheels once the two left side tyres blew? That is just some awesome stuff.

Yeap... Im glad I took the time to watch those videos and do the test myself... really cool stuff (for an arcade game - sarcasm - kidding) and works pretty much the same on PS3... just the imput response isnt the same or the graphics... dont know if the physics engine was dumbed down like Arvore states but it still feels pretty good...

Do you know if they modeled fuel weight and wear?

 

[arvore]

Do you know if they modeled fuel weight and wear?

Don't You think that if they did, You had already noticed by now...?
With or without a visual indicator of it?
Next thing You know people will be claiming that break temperatures and dynamic air inputs-exterior temp are coded in the game engine...let's keep our feet on the ground here?!