Views on this move

[kilesa4568]

Pretty sure everyone does this, just know that IF you’re unsure it doesn’t mean that the victim of your dive isn’t sure you wronged him and may be absolutely correct on replay and is absolutely fine with stuffing you back to get ahead.
This is racing reality.
This is again why the grey area ‘moves’ are poor etiquette.
Especially so in online imo because there’s no fear of injury or cost of damaging cars or losing sponsors etc.
There’s a point at which the validity is in question and that is a gray area.
But, you guys enjoy sitting on the “gamer entitled” throne where no one should ever assert themselves against you no matter what.
This is fantasy, not reality, in online racing as well as real.

Like the OP's? How did that work out for you?

After reading your fundamentally flawed race craft and your self appointed judge, jury and executioner role, we have nothing to talk about.

Leave it at that.

 

[Groundfish]

Like the OP's? How did that work out for you?

After reading your fundamentally flawed race craft and your self appointed judge, jury and executioner role, we have nothing to talk about.

Leave it at that.

Read your own post which I quoted in post 380.
Let me refresh your memory about you saying if you crash a guy out “badly impeding” his race and YOU YOURSELF are UNSURE if it was your fault, you carry on and EXPECT the other guy to do NOTHING and simply wait for your apology?
EVEN IF HE KNOWS it was your fault?
You expect to be able to go around being a jerk then argue others have to let it be?
How entitled is that?
You reserve the right to do wrong, but if YOURE unsure about it everyone else should be too?
Ridiculous.
That’s not a double standard I dunno what could possibly be.

 

[ImaRobot]

Read your own post which I quoted in post 380.
Let me refresh your memory about you saying if you crash a guy out “badly impeding” his race and YOU YOURSELF are UNSURE if it was your fault, you carry on and EXPECT the other guy to do NOTHING and simply wait for your apology?
EVEN IF HE KNOWS it was your fault?
You expect to be able to go around being a jerk then argue others have to let it be?
How entitled is that?
You reserve the right to do wrong, but if YOURE unsure about it everyone else should be too?
Ridiculous.
That’s not a double standard I dunno what could possibly be.

You seem to have a thing for twisting words.

 

[Groundfish]

You seem to have a thing for twisting words.

Great contribution to the discussion of race ethics thank you.

Edit all of you have a nice day.

I hope if nothing else anyone reading this will be a bit more careful in game and respect others when overtaking instead of always trying to go to the gray area and sort things later, which is the first step to WW3.

 

[ImaRobot]

Great contribution to the discussion of race ethics thank you.

Edit all of you have a nice day.

I hope if nothing else anyone reading this will be a bit more careful in game and respect others when overtaking instead of always trying to go to the gray area and sort things later, which is the first step to WW3.

Thanks, it's pretty much just as useful as yours have been.

I think a better lesson would be don't be so quick to point blame and work as judge/jury/executioner, you may be wrong entirely.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Final post from me:
The grey area is a silly name. If you doesn't hit the other driver it's ok, if you do it's not.
It's not necessarily dirty, you could have missed as brake point or misjudged a speed difference.
So you hit him, you give back the place.
You don't, then you don't.
And he better not retaliate because that makes him look bad.

 

[Keef]

I know there's probably a thread for this type of thing but can't find it so if there is I imagine it'll end up there

Done a lobby, and made a move late in the race on a car ahead. It is from a long way back, but I'm on better tyres and have better brakes so I know it's a possibility. After he covers the inside down the straight I move out of the tow early to see if he opens the inside back up, which he does, and I switch back up the inside to make the move on the brakes



The contact from my perspective is him not seeing me or just not thinking I might have gone for it and he's turned in, because as the on board shows I'm making the apex quite comfortably and I'm alongside. I'm not suggesting there should have been penalties anywhere, just suggesting that maybe this move - while bold - wasn't dirty and didn't warrant a retaliatory ram into T4 (which ghosted) and plenty of post race abuse

Thoughts?

(It'll be interesting to see all the different viewpoints on this, I can imagine they'll be varied!!)

Well this thread has moved right along but I want to address the point still.

The Ferrari was fine here.

The Porsche stopped defending and then got out-braked by the Ferrari. And it looks to me like the Ferrari braked effectively and would've been able to keep a tight line on the inside without issue. The Porsche came down on the Ferrari and in this game there's not much excuse for that because we have radar. I think the Ferrari shot the gap as any racer should and the Porsche just didn't see it coming. I would not classify this as a missile because it looks like the Ferrari braked well for a tight line but I do wish I could see the pedal telemetry to see if the Ferrari was trail braking by that point. If they were, then they had established their line into the corner.

Dude he was further back than this. If you’re here, it’s not your corner. Period.
View attachment 995285

He was so far back he wasn’t even in the guys radar!
Ok now I’m done. I disagree with divebombing as a means to get ahead

You're not done lol.

In your screenshot the Ferrari is well on the radar of the Porsche. Not only should the Porsche have realized that they stopped defending and could be taken advantage of, but they should've expected that possibility and been glancing at their radar. If they were actually paying attention they would already see the Ferrari by the time of your screenshot, and at minimum they could've expected a missile at which point they should back off and let the Ferrari go flying through and off the track. But if the Ferrari didn't go flying through then that would mean that the Ferrari simply outperformed the Porsche. Ultimately this is just a racing incident but the common denominator in both of those possible scenarios is the Porsche should've been paying attention. They weren't.

 

[Winnie847]

People have taken my words here as something like I’m out there punting anyone who gets my inside or something which is crazy.
Considering the fact that I’ve pretty much done everything in my power to learn racing standards and try my best to race hard but be fair

all disagreements aside (and there have been many), I will go on record saying that @Groundfish is truly a clean racer. At least just as clean as any of us commenting here, and there have been some very talented people to chime in on this thread. Regardless of what you think of the OP's move, or anything that has been shared or said since then, I'm glad there's a bunch of clean drivers arguing about how to keep it clean rather than dirty people trying to defend their consistently terrible choices. If I had to knock on GF's driving at all, it might be that he's not aggressive enough for how quick he is...but that's hardly an insult.

 

[Pigems]

all disagreements aside (and there have been many), I will go on record saying that @Groundfish is truly a clean racer. At least just as clean as any of us commenting here, and there have been some very talented people to chime in on this thread. Regardless of what you think of the OP's move, or anything that has been shared or said since then, I'm glad there's a bunch of clean drivers arguing about how to keep it clean rather than dirty people trying to defend their consistently terrible choices. If I had to knock on GF's driving at all, it might be that he's not aggressive enough for how quick he is...but that's hardly an insult.

Agreed, 100%.

 

[AfraidRacer]

Let's get this baby to 400 posts!

Sure!
Sneaky bump...

Edit- damn, 430.
Was one of my favourite cars growing up.

 

[ZiggyS80]

Fun to see more people joining in to the song that never ends. On that note, @ImaRobot cool profile pic. I got nostalgic from seeing that. I saw those guys back in 2005 with Queens of the Stone Age and Nine Inch Nails. Great show.

On another thread topic, the popcorn made me nostalgic, too. I worked a concession stand at Texas Stadium in high school. We served popcorn out of those giant bags, but there was a customer facing popcorn machine that we filled up for show.

On the main topic, I dunno, I commented like 8 pages ago so I’ll add that punts are bad.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

Since there are a few that really want to extend this discussion to 50+ pages I thought I would throw in something and get you alls opinion on it.

19 of my AI friends and I were racing around Autopolis today and I came to a major setback in my quest to improve my racecraft . . . I might just be a blocking divebomber! And that sucks!

I would like opinions on the 4 examples of my questionable racecraft below please.

Example 1 - I chose the inside line an I believe contact was made due to AI turning in on me.

Example 2 - Again tried to go inside (with contact again).

Example 3 - On exit how much am I supposed to give the inside driver?

Example 4 - Is this illegal blocking (even though I was trying to recover from goig off track)?



Any advice is appreciated.

For the movie experts - yes I know quality sucks, Steven Spielberg I am NOT.

 

[GOTMAXPOWER]

Since there are a few that really want to extend this discussion to 50+ pages I thought I would throw in something and get you alls opinion on it.

19 of my AI friends and I were racing around Autopolis today and I came to a major setback in my quest to improve my racecraft . . . I might just be a blocking divebomber! And that sucks!

I would like opinions on the 4 examples of my questionable racecraft below please.

Example 1 - I chose the inside line an I believe contact was made due to AI turning in on me.

Example 2 - Again tried to go inside (with contact again).

Example 3 - On exit how much am I supposed to give the inside driver?

Example 4 - Is this illegal blocking (even though I was trying to recover from goig off track)?



Any advice is appreciated.

For the movie experts - yes I know quality sucks, Steven Spielberg I am NOT.

I'm probably not the best for driving standards but I'll try to give some opinions. Bare in mind the AI are not the best comparison to real players, it's also easier to see how you're positioning from chase cam, the replays angles make it harder to judge:
Example 1: I would say this one is fine, you're entitled to the corner since your car is ahead and you've stayed tight to inside, that is barely contact won't even leave a scratch!

Example 2: This one is hard to say, you're coming from quite far back but the yellow Megane is blocking the view of the juicy bit, the AI left you space once your nose was in there, a human probably wouldn't.

Example 3: Giving room to the inside driver isn't something you normally have to think of on the exit, the natural racing line is to run right out to the curb on the outside where most of the responsibility is on the other car to not push you wide. If you exit any tighter you're costing both cars exit speed.

Example 4: This one is kind of an unsafe rejoin since you've gone from the gravel on the left right over to the far right. Since you're getting back up to speed you shouldn't do anything which forces other cars to take avoiding action (the TT had to hit the brakes).

Hopefully that helps, until the next poster disagrees with everything I've said. Since you're racing against AI you can yeet them off at the hairpin every lap and nobody would give a 🤬.

 

[Timm Sheehan]

(snip) Bare in mind the AI are not the best comparison to real players, it's also easier to see how you're positioning from chase cam, the replays angles make it harder to judge:

Yes, understand AI racers are not real racers but it is an easy way to practice for me most of the times. I will in the future remember which view gives the best view for constructive review. Thank you.

Example 2: This one is hard to say, you're coming from quite far back but the yellow Megane is blocking the view of the juicy bit, the AI left you space once your nose was in there, a human probably wouldn't.

I was thinking that I dive bombed him but saw the hole, rode the curb stones all the way around to gain the position.

Example 4: This one is kind of an unsafe rejoin since you've gone from the gravel on the left right over to the far right. Since you're getting back up to speed you shouldn't do anything which forces other cars to take avoiding action (the TT had to hit the brakes).

Yeah, I watched the replay and starting screaming "blocking" because I saw the Audi's nose go right to the pavement. I will have to work on my recovery procedures and in cases like this concentrate on coming back on the line on the left side. I think because I was recovering I lost situational awareness and was considering the left side the normal racing line so I was trying to go to the right side to get off the racing line. I was wrong.

(snip) Since you're racing against AI you can yeet them off at the hairpin every lap and nobody would give a 🤬.

Yeah, but I figure if I can learn to race AI correctly then I WILL race real racers correctly. What fun is it if I yeet them off - I could get 1000, no 10,000 wins if I did that and that would give me nothing.

Thank you very much for your response, I will work on your recommendations.

 

[NAXEHT]

Having checked this guy’s stats I know he’s not only fast but also clean with 800+ logged Sport Mode days, many of which at SR 99. That said, any views on this move? Didn’t I cover enough of the inside? Those look like some kind of track limits to me but maybe I’m wrong? Should I go alongside the actual wall?

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Having checked this guy’s stats I know he’s not only fast but also clean with 800+ logged Sport Mode days, many of which at SR 99. That said, any views on this move? Didn’t I cover enough of the inside? Those look like some kind of track limits to me but maybe I’m wrong? Should I go alongside the actual wall?

I'd say it's not pretty but it's legal. The track limits are the wall at that spot. I get that you are trying to control the inside, since you can't stop him from slipstreaming past you.
I would probably have stayed on the right/center and cut the right hand curb in the kink so I could keep the fast line in to the 90° at the bottom.
If he still makes it by you can try to pass after the hairpin going uphill.

 

[NAXEHT]

I'd say it's not pretty but it's legal. The track limits are the wall at that spot. I get that you are trying to control the inside, since you can't stop him from slipstreaming past you.
I would probably have stayed on the right/center and cut the right hand curb in the kink so I could keep the fast line in to the 90° at the bottom.
If he still makes it by you can try to pass after the hairpin going uphill.

Yeah, you might be right about that. Outside is on a hotlap obviously the faster line and can be during the race as well, just depends a bit on your opponent. Lotta squeezin' by there in general.

Well, if I decide to block that inside again, I suppose I'll be alongside the wall, over those lines.

 

[Groundfish]

Well, if I decide to block that inside again, I suppose I'll be alongside the wall, over those lines.

This. That’s a pet peeve of mine. Important to remember if they stay right behind and you’re there, they are basically saying to you “I’m going to punt you off”
Therefore brake early

 

[RacingGrandpa]

OK. Instead of starting a new thread I am posting here...

Views on this move


OK.. I know what the Italian driver did after the hairpin was dirty, what I am asking is was my move dirty?

I was on mediums, he was on soft so I knew he would pass me if I didn't defend.
So when he signal he is going inside I move to the inside before the braking zone and brake as much as I can to make the corner while leaving room. The modulation of my brake pedal is to minimise my ABS impact.
Since he got softs he can outbrake me, but then he turns in without leaving any room. I can't disappear so I hit him in the corner.

What should I have done differently? I tried to include every view.

 

[Dave_H_87]

OK. Instead of starting a new thread I am posting here...

Views on this move


OK.. I know what the Italian driver did after the hairpuwas dirty, what I am asking is was my move dirty?

I was on mediums, he was in soft soI knew he would pass me if I didn't defend.
So when he signal he is going inside I move to the inside before the braking zone and brake as much as I can to mke the corner while leaving room. The modulation of my brake pedal is to minimise my ABS impact.
Since he got softs he can outbrake me, but then he turns in without leaving any room. I can't disappear so I hit him in the corner.

What should I have done differently? I tried to include every view.

I'd say he should have given you room on the inside, if he had he still would have passed you on the exit of that corner regardless.

His steering looked 'notchy' so I'm guessing he's quite aggressive with the sticks on the DS4, maybe doesn't have the capacity to have spatial awareness in that case.

From his perspective he probably thought you were pushing him out of the way, hence the push to pass on final corner.

All in all, it seems like the final positions were fair to me

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Yes, I agree on that. I just don't like the way it happened

 

[Adam Barber]

OK. Instead of starting a new thread I am posting here...

Views on this move


OK.. I know what the Italian driver did after the hairpuwas dirty, what I am asking is was my move dirty?

I was on mediums, he was in soft soI knew he would pass me if I didn't defend.
So when he signal he is going inside I move to the inside before the braking zone and brake as much as I can to mke the corner while leaving room. The modulation of my brake pedal is to minimise my ABS impact.
Since he got softs he can outbrake me, but then he turns in without leaving any room. I can't disappear so I hit him in the corner.

What should I have done differently? I tried to include every view.

Nothing else you could have done to avoid that apart from disappearing. Looked like the other drivers fault for having zero spacial awareness and turning into a car that was already there.