Vision GT: A Great Initiative or a Dying Concept?

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Is Vision GT Worth It?


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Wasted time creating them ... considering most work is done by the maunfacturer, don't see it as an issue.
The manufacturers aren't the one who model the cars for the game.


Secondly, when an automaker unveils the car to the public it gives Gran Turismo free publicity. This could maybe increase sales of the games in the future....
The "free publicity" starts and stops in tune with Sony's press releases. They generate nearly no buzz by themselves, because pie in the sky concept cars are usually largely ignored even for real life cars at real car expos covered by major automotive press outlets, unless there is some tangible reason to write about them (like having future styling elements for the brand or being a exaggerated preview of an upcoming car). Note how the Mistubishi might as well not exist considering how little it is discussed even here on a fan website dedicated to the game series it was designed for; because it's introduction was completely obliterated by the Senna content.

Out of the 7 cars so far made, only a few of them have actually had any sustainable interest beyond an automotive website rephrasing the press packet Sony sent them on a slow news day; and one of them was just because some company talked about building the Mercedes Vision GT against Mercedes' wishes all the way back in December, which ultimately amounted to nothing anyway any everyone interested in Mercedes concept news went back to talking about the SLS AMG replacement.
 
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The manufacturers aren't the one who model the cars for the game.
Well I don't think PD scanned a non-existing Mitsubishi VGT so they can put it in the game.
Therefore I would suggest some work is done by the manufacturer.
Sure there is work involved for PD, but they certainly aren't starting from scratch.
 
It's an original project, and a nice addition but it shouldn't be the main focus of GT's car DLC.

That's what I think of it, I love every car they have released so far, but PD has to know that there are real cars we also want to be included in the game

The intention is good on PD's part, though
 
Wow, I'm suprised at how much attention my thread has gathered. Did not expect that! Seeing some great reasoning here. Keep it up guys!
 
Well I don't think PD scanned a non-existing Mitsubishi VGT so they can put it in the game.
I doubt they scanned the non-existent interior of the various Red Bull cars either, but I don't think they had Adrian Newey sit down and model that for them. He's seemed pretty busy this year especially, so I'm doubting he had much of a hand in making, say, the 2014 Go Kart.
That Isuzu concept car that was destroyed in the 1980s also wasn't scanned, but was recreated wholly by PD through photographs and the designer's original notes, with him only supervising.


Nevermind all of the fictional race cars which are entirely PD creations but are clearly closely based on real cars.

Therefore I would suggest some work is done by the manufacturer.
Sure there is work involved for PD, but they certainly aren't starting from scratch.
All of the work that is relevant for the discussion about allocation of resources for putting the car into the game (meaning turning manufacturer technical and design data and sketches into driveable cars in the game) is done solely by PD. The only exception to Kaz's infamous "no outsourcing" rule seems to have been the Nike 2022, which based on Phil Frank's posts on the subject apparently was essentially Nike paying Sony to put the car that he did all of the modeling work for in the game; to the extent that he didn't realize what he supplied PD with was too detailed until it was too late to change anything.
 
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All of the work that is relevant for the discussion about allocation of resources for putting the car into the game (meaning turning manufacturer technical and design data and sketches into driveable cars in the game) is done solely by PD. The only exception to Kaz's hard "no outsourcing" rule seems to have been the Nike 2022, which based on Phil Frank's posts on the subject apparently was essentially Nike paying Sony to put the car that he did all of the modeling work for in the game; to the extent that he didn't realize his renders were too detailed until it was too late to change them.
Your point about scanning a Red Bull cockpit is pointless so I've removed it from your quote.
You've clearly not picked-up on what I'm saying there.

Sorry, I didn't realise that these manufacturers simply leave PD with "technical and design data and sketches" and then leave them to it, walking out the door with all their computer models.

The "free publicity" starts and stops in tune with Sony's press releases. They generate nearly no buzz by themselves, because pie in the sky concept cars are usually largely ignored even for real life cars at real car expos covered by major automotive press outlets, unless there is some tangible reason to write about them (like having future styling elements for the brand or being a exaggerated preview of an upcoming car). Note how the Mistubishi might as well not exist considering how little it is discussed even here on a fan website dedicated to the game series it was designed for; because it's introduction was completely obliterated by the Senna content.

Out of the 7 cars so far made, only a few of them have actually had any sustainable interest beyond an automotive website rephrasing the press packet Sony sent them on a slow news day; and one of them was just because some company talked about building the Mercedes Vision GT against Mercedes' wishes all the way back in December, which ultimately amounted to nothing anyway any everyone interested in Mercedes concept news went back to talking about the SLS AMG replacement.

I think you've dismissed the value of publicity here.
Unless of course you call the LA Motor Show, Worthersee, and Goodwood "Sony press releases".
To my knowledge, the BMW and Mitsubishi don't exist in the real world.
Which is why they both arrived without much fanfare.
The others do, which is why they have had noticeable interest outside of GT6.
The publicity for GT6, particularly at Goodwood, is clear to be seen.
 
Your point about scanning a Red Bull cockpit is pointless so I've removed it from your quote.
How convenient for you. I see you also ignored the bit I spent so much time digging up about the Isuzu 4200R, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that maybe you just didn't see it before posting. I'm even curious if you even read the thread I linked where the designer of what was essentially the original Vision GT car posted on this forum talking about its creation, which you had to have seen since you quoted it.
Whatever works best for you, I guess.

👍



You've clearly not picked-up on what I'm saying there.
No. It's pretty obvious what you're saying. The auto manufacturers are doing most of the heavy lifting in actually getting these cars into the game.


The problem is that the notion that Kaz would allow another company to do most of the work for their game is incompatible with everything we've ever head about PD's staffing tendencies (including things Kaz has outright stated), but more importantly:
Sorry, I didn't realise that these manufacturers simply leave PD with "technical and design data and sketches" and then leave them to it, walking out the door with all their computer models.
Well, first of all, they probably do walk out the door with most of their computer models. I'd be amazed if even PD's good buddies at Nissan gave PD frequent access to their internal modeling data (which, it should be pointed out for the folks at home, are some of the most highly guarded trade secrets any industrial manufacturer has) at any given time. For example, when PD was modeling the Corvette C7 for simultaneous release with the concept car reveal, I'm pretty doubtful anyone gave PD the CAD/CAM data to build it when GM were so paranoid about it leaking that when it did anyway the parts manufacturer retained a law firm specifically to threaten Jalopnik with legal action if they didn't remove it.


But for the purposes of this discussion, the really important part is that car manufacturer computer modeling data are worthless for the purposes of "saving time" modeling a car for a video game.
PD doesn't model cars using CAD software. Auto manufacturers do. PD model cars from scratch for their needs using 3D animation software (specifically, they use Autodesk Maya). Car manufacturers don't. The two types of programs are completely different skillsets, with very different training involved, completely different fields of study and completely different goals. The end result of working with both programs is also not directly cross compatible; or, if you're one of the several auto manufacturers that use proprietary CAD software, not compatible at all. This is particularly important for the Red Bull thing you went out of your way to state you are ignoring, because Adrian Newey and Red Bull blatantly wouldn't be working with 3D animation software when trying to determine theoretical performance numbers using the software they use to test their Formula One designs, because they obviously don't design their Formula One cars using 3D animation software.




This is all ignoring that you're taking data that is infinitely more detailed than any video game would be able to run in real time, and not editable in real time either; and claiming that providing that data to PD constitutes doing "most of the work."

Here's a good read on the subject.


I think you've dismissed the value of publicity here.
Unless of course you call the LA Motor Show, Worthersee, and Goodwood "Sony press releases".
Every year, dozens of meaningless design student orgasm concept cars are displayed at every major auto expo, to ever increasing indifference. That's even why most of the old stalwart design houses (including Bertone, one of the companies formerly involved with the VGT program) have died out or been bought up over the years. The only time such cars are given major attention is when they have relevance to cars that are actually going to go into production (or are production capable with changes); or at least showcase some new technology that is about to filter in.

To my knowledge, the BMW and Mitsubishi don't exist in the real world.
Which is why they both arrived without much fanfare
Actually, the BMW seems to have been one of the ones with longer legs than most of them. Probably because it has much clearer ties to the road cars BMW produces, I suspect. It, the Mercedes and the Toyota are the big ones.

The others do, which is why they have had noticeable interest outside of GT6.
The publicity for GT6, particularly at Goodwood, is clear to be seen.
You mean the publicity at Goodwood at the Sony-sponsored event showing off several of the Sony-commissioned cars which was running during the Festival of Speed?
 
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The VGT cars do nothing for me personally. No interiors, not really customizable, limited tuning....I would much rather have more street cars being added as DLC, free or for $$$, I don't care.

Some of them look "alright", I'll concede that, but they just aren't my cup of tea. Although, I must admit, I do really like the new Nightshade purple that came with the Nissan VGT.
 
How convenient for you. I see you also ignored the bit I spent so much time digging up about the Isuzu 4200R, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that maybe you just didn't see it before posting. I'm even curious if you even read the thread I linked where the designer of what was essentially the original Vision GT car posted on this forum talking about its creation, which you had to have seen since you quoted it.
Whatever works best for you, I guess.

👍




No. It's pretty obvious what you're saying. The auto manufacturers are doing most of the heavy lifting in actually getting these cars into the game.


The problem is that the notion that Kaz would allow another company to do most of the work for their game is incompatible with everything we've ever head about PD's staffing tendencies (including things Kaz has outright stated), but more importantly:

Well, first of all, they probably do walk out the door with most of their computer models. I'd be amazed if even PD's good buddies at Nissan gave PD frequent access to their internal modeling data (which, it should be pointed out for the folks at home, are some of the most highly guarded trade secrets any industrial manufacturer has) at any given time. For example, when PD was modeling the Corvette C7 for simultaneous release with the concept car reveal, I'm pretty doubtful anyone gave PD the CAD/CAM data to build it when GM were so paranoid about it leaking that when it did anyway the parts manufacturer retained a law firm specifically to threaten Jalopnik with legal action if they didn't remove it.


But for the purposes of this discussion, the really important part is that car manufacturer computer modeling data are worthless for the purposes of "saving time" modeling a car for a video game.
PD doesn't model cars using CAD software. Auto manufacturers do. PD model cars from scratch for their needs using 3D animation software (specifically, they use Autodesk Maya). Car manufacturers don't. The two types of programs are completely different skillsets, with very different training involved, completely different fields of study and completely different goals. The end result of working with both programs is also not directly cross compatible; or, if you're one of the several auto manufacturers that use proprietary CAD software, not compatible at all. This is particularly important for the Red Bull thing you went out of your way to state you are ignoring, because Adrian Newey and Red Bull blatantly wouldn't be working with 3D animation software when trying to determine theoretical performance numbers using the software they use to test their Formula One designs, because they obviously don't design their Formula One cars using 3D animation software.




This is all ignoring that you're taking data that is infinitely more detailed than any video game would be able to run in real time, and not editable in real time either; and claiming that providing that data to PD constitutes doing "most of the work."

Here's a good read on the subject.



Every year, dozens of meaningless design student orgasm concept cars are displayed at every major auto expo, to ever increasing indifference. That's even why most of the old stalwart design houses (including Bertone, one of the companies formerly involved with the VGT program) have died out or been bought up over the years. The only time such cars are given major attention is when they have relevance to cars that are actually going to go into production (or are production capable with changes); or at least showcase some new technology that is about to filter in.


Actually, the BMW seems to have been one of the ones with longer legs than most of them. Probably because it has much clearer ties to the road cars BMW produces, I suspect. It, the Mercedes and the Toyota are the big ones.


You mean the publicity at Goodwood at the Sony-sponsored event showing off several of the Sony-commissioned cars which was running during the Festival of Speed?
Well it wasn't 'convenient' of me, I simply though it wasn't relevant.
Whether or not there was a Red Bull cockpit to scan wasn't my point.
The point I was going for was that there isn't a Mitsubishi VGT to scan.
And so therefore they would use Mitsubishi's own data, ergo saving time.
Apparently, according to you, this isn't the case.

And I see no evidence that the BMW has the 'longer legs'.
Maybe here, but so what.
As far a publicity or interest in the real world, I see no greater interest taken in the BMW than any others.

And so what if the Goodwood event was SONY sponsored.
It doesn't mean it wasn't good publicity.
Which after all, was the original point being made by NinjaDesignz.

Anyway, clearly you're not in favor of the VGT project.
I enjoy it.
Each to their own.
 
I'd be amazed if even PD's good buddies at Nissan gave PD frequent access to their internal modeling data (which, it should be pointed out for the folks at home, are some of the most highly guarded trade secrets any industrial manufacturer has) at any given time.

I agree with most of your post, but we should give PD benefit of doubt in this case.

Outsourcing R&D is very common in the automotive industry. Those companies get the modeling data from Toyota/Nissan/VW/etc too. I can imagine PD getting access to thoses datas under similar heavy security guidlines. I don't know if the can use them though. From what I have seen so far, designers don't seem to build their models with standard CAD software :S
 
I think the Vision GT programme is a great idea, but I must say I'm really not massively impressed by what we've seen. My problem is that they all seem to be about out-and-out performance clothed in sexy styling.

And what is so original about that?

These cars seem to drive themselves, they are so easy. So much power and grip. There is so much more to fun driving than simply going as fast as possible. I suppose one could just suggest driving them on harder compound tyres…but still, none of them look, or feel, truly amazing. As for appearances, they could just as easily have been designed 10, even 20 years ago.

If it had been up to me to design something…?

I would have designed a form of on-land transport that wasn't a car. Perhaps some kind of exoskeleton, with terrain-determined variable geometry, legs for walking/running, retractable wheels (skates?), head-up-display with augmented vision, cardiovascular control and monitoring… think something out of a manga… a cross between Ghost In The Shell and WipeOut…

Gran Turismo is a 'driving simulator', but I see no reason to simply adhere to traditional notions of what a car is, what driving is.

Can't wait to see what Michael Jordan comes up with..!!!
 
If it had been up to me to design something…?

I would have designed a form of on-land transport that wasn't a car. Perhaps some kind of exoskeleton, with terrain-determined variable geometry, legs for walking/running, retractable wheels (skates?), head-up-display with augmented vision, cardiovascular control and monitoring… think something out of a manga… a cross between Ghost In The Shell and WipeOut…

Gran Turismo is a 'driving simulator', but I see no reason to simply adhere to traditional notions of what a car is, what driving is.

That is how you would answer this design brief? :

The project started with a question from Kazunori Yamauchi: "Would you be willing to design your rendition of Gran Turismo for us?" The videogame’s name "Gran Turismo" (GT) refers to a 2-door sport car, known as a Grand Touring car in the automotive world.

Personally I'd rather take what we getting now thanks!

Beside that, the game has to be able to reasonably replicate the features and design of the vehicle in question, and use it in a suitable fashion within the structure of the game - sounds to me like you'd rather be playing a mech game.
 
I have driven some of the vision cars far more than was necessary. I was even enjoying myself, so that justifies the hard drive space they occupy I guess.
 
I like Vision GT but PD still needs to do more real cars, livery customizer, track editor, more career races, convert some standards into premium, more tracks and add interiors to Vision GT cars. Despite this GT6 in my opinion is still better than Forza 5 and Drive Club.
 
In my case there are many things in the game that I like that far outweigh the issues I have.
 
I like Vision GT but PD still needs to do more real cars, livery customizer, track editor, more career races, convert some standards into premium, more tracks and add interiors to Vision GT cars. Despite this GT6 in my opinion is still better than Forza 5 and Drive Club.

And Driveclub? Judging a game you have not even played?
 
I don't have an issue per-se with the VGT cars, it's just that the game is still incompleat at this point. There are issues that need to be addressed before adding new frivolous content. It's like repainting your car before you grind out and fill the dents and rust spots. The time would be much better spent on upgrading standard (Classics) like the E-type, the C2-3 Corvettes the iconic Japanese drift cars like the AE86, Silvias etc.. not to mention that most of the LMP's are also in serious need of premiumization. Only a couple are premium, IIRC. the pescarolo's look particularly bad.
They still need to clean up some of the many useless duplications, and upgrade the sounds. Next, fix the online experience by making it easier to create custom events. Perhaps make an event creator for offline as well. B-spec was promised, but I doubt that anyone would notice or care if that was dropped entirely. All it was good for was grinding credits anyway.
Basically, just make the game fully functional and deliver the content that was promised at release time.

Not to mention that it is crazy to sit through a 300+MB 2hour DL and install for a couple of boring marketing videos from manufacturers, and 2 cars that will never ever exist IRL.

(rant over)
 
That is how you would answer this design brief? :



Personally I'd rather take what we getting now thanks!

Beside that, the game has to be able to reasonably replicate the features and design of the vehicle in question, and use it in a suitable fashion within the structure of the game - sounds to me like you'd rather be playing a mech game.

I think it'd be doable!

But if we're just going to stick to 'traditional' concept cars…yawn. I honestly couldn't give a frig. I'd prefer more real-life cars, and more of the features that so many people have actually been clamouring for.

So to answer the thread's question: VGT certainly could have been a great initiative, but it's scope has been a disappointment. An unnecessary distraction instead.

Unless PD has benefited financially as a result, thus boosting development on GT7…we hope…
 
Well, first of all, they probably do walk out the door with most of their computer models. I'd be amazed if even PD's good buddies at Nissan gave PD frequent access to their internal modeling data (which, it should be pointed out for the folks at home, are some of the most highly guarded trade secrets any industrial manufacturer has) at any given time. For example, when PD was modeling the Corvette C7 for simultaneous release with the concept car reveal, I'm pretty doubtful anyone gave PD the CAD/CAM data to build it when GM were so paranoid about it leaking that when it did anyway the parts manufacturer retained a law firm specifically to threaten Jalopnik with legal action if they didn't remove it.
c7ydbn0.gif

http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/products/gt6/cars/


But for the purposes of this discussion, the really important part is that car manufacturer computer modeling data are worthless for the purposes of "saving time" modeling a car for a video game.
PD doesn't model cars using CAD software. Auto manufacturers do. PD model cars from scratch for their needs using 3D animation software (specifically, they use Autodesk Maya). Car manufacturers don't.
This is Maya (from Nissan)
maya25und.jpg

https://www.gtplanet.net/new-video-screenshots-of-nissan-concept-2020-in-gt6/


The two types of programs are completely different skillsets, with very different training involved, completely different fields of study and completely different goals. The end result of working with both programs is also not directly cross compatible; or, if you're one of the several auto manufacturers that use proprietary CAD software, not compatible at all.
Is this new to you?

directc6gudq.gif

http://knowledge.autodesk.com/suppo...25F39FB8-C64A-40CE-A92E-E7F7A056EB32-htm.html

VRED (also from Nissan)
http://www.autodesk.com/products/vred/overview

vredcyubr.jpg



This is particularly important for the Red Bull thing you went out of your way to state you are ignoring, because Adrian Newey and Red Bull blatantly wouldn't be working with 3D animation software when trying to determine theoretical performance numbers using the software they use to test their Formula One designs, because they obviously don't design their Formula One cars using 3D animation software.
Red Bull use NX from Siemens not a propietary software, and guess what? yes... it have also a data exchange feature or file converter, something common since the early years to any professional CAD or rendering software.

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.c...design/productivity-tools/data-exchange.shtml
http://www.siemens.com/press/en/events/corporate/2010-11-racing.php


This is all ignoring that you're taking data that is infinitely more detailed than any video game would be able to run in real time, and not editable in real time either; and claiming that providing that data to PD constitutes doing "most of the work."
Polyphony is probably using some of the actual tools that are using most car manufacturers today to deal with the original CAD data, as an intermediate step or directly in their modelling workflow. Propietary software is becoming, everytime more, something of the past as there are available many professional solutions that surpass the best propietary tools that they were using years back. File formats are NOT a problem.

A great thing is that Polyphony have been evolving to tesellated cars and that's an advantage when working with CAD data. In the future that will translate to an almost direct to game model or a very fast conversion to GT. There is nothing more perfect than the original car inside the game and that fits very well with PD. I'm sure that the change to the new format is not casual, the possibilities are endless and very real-time friendly when used with adaptive tesellation.


Blueprints are a very old-school and inaccurate method of modelling... almost amateur in the professional industry, nothing that PD would use today as a basis to model any modern car or old in existence. Laser scannings and CAD data are common in their workflow since many years. Exceptions does not make a rule.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92507536&postcount=1772
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=92449147&postcount=1517
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=121733842&postcount=7246
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=118090193&postcount=7062
 
I always wondering, when car manufacturers created VGT, does they considered it as their part of history because some has an enthusiasm on it, some are just seems lazy and unadvertised at best.

Each time they add a Vision GT car I feel like a victim in a marketing plot.
And so does all cars with the big names on it. And your point is?
 
And so does all cars with the big names on it. And your point is?

Are you saying that the cars with big names are victims too? Or are you implying that they are no different, and what exactly do you mean with "big names"?

Well, my point is that these Vision GT cars are thrown at me because the car companies want to show me how special and forward thinking they are. I couldn't care less about that.. All I want from the game is to drive cars I currently can't afford in real life. Their underlying intentions by letting me do so may be different but that's their headache.
 
Are you saying that the cars with big names are victims too? Or are you implying that they are no different, and what exactly do you mean with "big names"?

Well, my point is that these Vision GT cars are thrown at me because the car companies want to show me how special and forward thinking they are. I couldn't care less about that.. All I want from the game is to drive cars I currently can't afford in real life. Their underlying intentions by letting me do so may be different but that's their headache.
I mean the car other than VGT. Concept car anyone?

For the VGT thing, its PD intention to have the program. PD only have to modeled it to the game, not design, etc. PD actually has the time to model another real life cars if they want to.
 
God the results so far to this poll are downright depressing. Clearly PD might be able to dedicate more time to addressing long overdue bug fixes and modeling real cars that people are actually requesting if they weren't pushing out so much of this VGT 🤬, but it seems the fans love it. Personally I reset my race without starting it if I even see a concept come up amongst the AI drivers, such is my hate for these unproven vehicles. But they've always been there. Kaz loves them, it wouldn't be GT without 'em.
 
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