W.VA. teen arrested after "almost inciting riot"

[Johnnypenso]

And he also probably has no problem embellishing the events to favour his client. For all you know, the teacher asked the kid to turn his shirt inside out, and the kid said no. The teacher raised his voice slightly, to reinforce the idea that the kid needed to do as he was asked. At this point, the other students sensed the opportunity to cause trouble, and started chanting.

You've decided that the kid did nothing wrong because he was defending his rights. You've then assumed that because of this, the version of events presented by the lawyer has to be truly representative of the situation and that he is absolutely not presenting his client in the most favourable way possible.

No, I've decided that the teacher ought to know better than to handle this in the cafeteria, in front of a group of students. What kind of a moron thinks the outcome will be positive when you confront a kid in the cafeteria in front of all of his friends and classmates, then raise your voice to make your point, in front of hundreds of people? That isn't how responsible adults and especially teachers should behave. Those are the actions of a self centered, self righteous moron who doesn't respect the kid enough to not embarass him in front of his peers.

Although I don't agree that he should have to remove the shirt, a teacher with a rice grain of intelligence would have simply asked him to meet in private or go to the office or whatever, so the situation could be handled with some delicacy. At that point the kid's ego isn't engaged and likely cooler heads would have prevailed. The teacher obviously figured he was right and he was the boss so the kid has to do what he says or else. Pathetic.

 

[Altier146237]

Just a bit of a history lesson here. In the supreme court tinker v des monies the supreme court ruled that the government does not have a right to sensor students in schools who are engaging in non disruptive political statements. I.E anti Vietnam wrist bands. This nra shirt is not even similiar to was not similar to the supreme court case " bong hits for Jesus.", because the t short does not go against any goals which the educational system has.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Just a bit of a history lesson here. In the supreme court tinker v des monies the supreme court ruled that the government does not have a right to sensor students in schools who are engaging in non disruptive political statements. I.E anti Vietnam wrist bands. This nra shirt is not even similiar to was not similar to the supreme court case " bong hits for Jesus.", because the t short does not go against any goals which the educational system has.

True, the conundrum is in the phrase, "engaging in non disruptive political statements". When it comes to the liberal teachers and administrators, basically anything they don't like falls under, "disruptive"

 

[arora]

It's time to abolish the public scruel system and start over.

 

[Wolfe]

Reminds me of this:

 

[hogger129]

If that's true, then apparently "I was defending my rights" or "I was exercising my rights" is an excuse for people to do whatever they want, and suffer no consequences for it. Do you want to shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre? Go ahead. If you cause a stampede and eighty people die, you can't be held responsible, because you were just exercising your right to free speech, and all those people caught up in the stampede should have realised that there was no fire to begin with, so it's their fault; not yours. Rather than take responsibility for your actions, you'd rather just claim that someone was denying you your rights and make it their problem. Because why should you be held accountable for what you do?

Or at least, that's what some people here seem to think. It's scary that with one breath, they will vehemently defend this kid ... and with another, they'll call for Dzhokar Tsarnaev to be stripped of his rights.

I don't see how wearing an NRA tee shirt to school, which is an exercise of one's First Amendment rights, is equal to shouting fire in a crowded theatre... I'm sure if the kid wore some tee shirt advocating communism, socialism or some other left wing philosophy, nobody would have said a thing. This is why if I were a parent, I'd send my kids to a private school.

As for Tsarnaev, who is calling for his rights to be denied? I believe they read him his rights (as they should have), and he will be tried in a court for what he did.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Reminds me of this:

That's a classic dude thanks:tup:👍 I'm sure if the teacher in this case had to write a letter to the parents of this kid the wording would have been quite similar...lol.

 

[MatskiMonk]

So far as I can tell kids these days have got no respect for teachers, things can't have changed that much since I was at school, but give a kid an inch, and at least half the class of them will take a mile. So 'raising their voice' is a total non-event as far as I'm concerned... standing with his face 1 inch from yours, shouting at the top of his voice would be a little harsh, but it's what used to happen in my day!

I can see the teacher was probably wrong to have an issue with the T-shirt in the first place, but at the same time, for all we know the kid had been pushing his luck for months, and this was just the tipping point.

I do think it's ridiculous to be hoping the teacher gets sacked, regardless of weather or not they might be a good educator or not... Always siding with the students is why kids think they can get away with so much... then, later in life, when the kids struggle to get a job because they fink it ok 2 talk lk this, they go and blame their schools and teachers.

 

[Liquid]

I do think it's ridiculous to be hoping the teacher gets sacked, regardless of weather or not they might be a good educator or not... Always siding with the students is why kids think they can get away with so much... then, later in life, when the kids struggle to get a job because they fink it ok 2 talk lk this, they go and blame their schools and teachers.

*Cue slating of state schools in 3... 2...*

No, but seriously. I'm with you on that. Children have little respect for teachers. Having both been to school and spent one academic year teaching in one, it's very hard to instill a sense of discipline.

As for wearing the T-shirt, I personally agree with what has been said both here and elsewhere, with freedom and rights comes sense and responsibility. Tact should be applied in situations like this.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Now you see why schools across America are switching to school uniform policies so they can avoid crap like this.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Now you see why schools across America are switching to school uniform policies so they can avoid crap like this.

Yes, because enforced uniformity is the way to teach kids about the world works.

 

[Altier146237]

*Cue slating of state schools in 3... 2...*

No, but seriously. I'm with you on that. Children have little respect for teachers. Having both been to school and spent one academic year teaching in one, it's very hard to instill a sense of discipline.

As for wearing the T-shirt, I personally agree with what has been said both here and elsewhere, with freedom and rights comes sense and responsibility. Tact should be applied in situations like this.

You can apply your personal values, but this goes against a supreme court ruling. I do agree that students in general have low respect for adminstrators and educators but, to make a general statement and apply it to a student who you know very little is not a good idea. You can hold opnions and expieriences, but you do not need to allow them to create prejudice.

 

[sumbrownkid]

Yes, because enforced uniformity is the way to teach kids about the world works.

It also teaches kids how to dress appropriately for a learning environment. Leave all the religious and politics outside the school so these kids can learn math and science and how to read and write.

What does supporting anything have to do with the child's education?

 

[Altier146237]

It also teaches kids how to dress appropriately for a learning environment. Leave all the religious and politics outside the school so these kids can learn math and science and how to read and write.

What does supporting anything have to do with the child's education?

What does the nra have to do with religion? Also in a class such as civics, government, or current events the reasonable debate and discussion on politics should take place. Unless you wish to have those in school taught : your opnions are invalid, because they are out of line from what is the popular belief.

 

[Zenith]

Schools exist to teach more than the coursework. Uniforms negatively affect the student's ability to deal with the realities they will face in life.

 

[Joel]

Schools exist to teach more than the coursework. Uniforms negatively affect the student's ability to deal with the realities they will face in life.

I went to a uniformed school, and while I agree I really don't think it's all that big of a deal. Sure, it's a bit hard to adjust to dressing in "regular" clothes after wearing a uniform for 4 years of high school, but I don't think it's something that is going to have a big impact on someone's life in the long term.

Still, I'm not a supporter of school uniforms even if I don't vehemently oppose them.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Schools exist to teach more than the coursework. Uniforms negatively affect the student's ability to deal with the realities they will face in life.

You mean, like in life where they will be expected to maintain a certain standard, or a given style of personal presentation throughout their entire working life?

 

[Zenith]

Fair point. To blame a free dress code for the actions that took place here is silly. The obvious culprit was either the school faculty or the student.

Edit:@MM

Dress code =/= uniforms. More importantly, this case is about freedom of expression.

 

[Azuremen]

And he also probably has no problem embellishing the events to favour his client. For all you know, the teacher asked the kid to turn his shirt inside out, and the kid said no. The teacher raised his voice slightly, to reinforce the idea that the kid needed to do as he was asked. At this point, the other students sensed the opportunity to cause trouble, and started chanting.

The teacher handled this poorly if he felt confronting the student in the cafeteria over a matter that would have been best handled behind closed doors was the adult thing to do. As others have pointed out, the lawyer wouldn't be willing to submit the video as evidence if it all cast the kid in poor light.

Your attitude here as boiled down to the teacher is always correct and kids should respect their demands, regardless of being rational or not. If you think it is appropriate for an instructor to raise his voice to make a point, despite how unprofessional it is to do so, then I guess your view on teachers with guns makes more sense - you support letting emotion get the better of them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

It also teaches kids how to dress appropriately for a learning environment. Leave all the religious and politics outside the school so these kids can learn math and science and how to read and write.

What does supporting anything have to do with the child's education?

Kids have to learn about politics and religion as well, given how pervasive it is in our society. They also have to learn tolerance and listening to others and accepting that although others have different values than you, you can agree to disagree and move on, you don't have to use force or authoritarian rule to prevent someone from expressing an opinion that harms no one and is different from yours, which is what happened in this case.

 

[Crispy]

I hate to say it, but prisonermonkeys is right.

In school you have no rights, it has been said so in the Supreme Court. You must play by the rules of what someone in a school system says. If a teacher, for any reason, tells you that the shirt you are wearing is inappropriate then you have to obey that teacher. If you ignore those directions then you will get in trouble.

Does that mean the teacher is right? No, but it still doesn't matter. If the teacher says something and you disobey, don't expect to not get in trouble.

Now I would have to disagree that wearing a shirt advocating the protection of the Right to Bear Arms is instigating something. Guns shouldn't be a scary topic in a school environment. In my school we have had a class where a police officer had brought in around 10 or 11 guns to the classroom for us to examine, including an AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, Colt 1911, .357 Magnum, and a few shotguns. In fact the magazine was sitting right on the counter for the AR-15. In our geography class we often talk about gun control. It doesn't seem like this kid got in trouble advocating for the protection of the 2nd amendment in school, it sounds to me like he got in trouble because a teacher disagreed with is opinion and decided to use his power as a teacher against this kid.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Fair point. To blame a free dress code for the actions that took place here is silly. The obvious culprit was either the school faculty or the student.

Edit:@MM

Dress code =/= uniforms. More importantly, this case is about freedom of expression.

You're right a dress code does not equal a specified uniform, I still fail to see how it negatively impacts the students later on in life?

The 'uniformity' of my school uniforms (pretty standard for UK to have school uniforms), was basically about the colour - but, you tell 10 people to go out and buy a dark blue jumper, see how many buy identical jumpers? It's not about 'the man' trying to rob kids of their individuality (for the hours of the day they are in the care of the school), it's about maintaining a certain standard.

In my opinion, this case is basically about 2 parties not backing down over a pretty trivial thing, neither taking a broader view of the situation at hand. As far as I can see the student wasn't arrested for the T-shirt he was wearing, he was arrested because of the situation escalating, since he apparently welcomed the arrest I'm guessing he probably wasn't trying to diffuse the situation.

 

[Liquid]

The United Kingdom has had uniforms in high schools (middle school and high school for the North Americans) for hundreds of years. I'm fortunate that we have so; the bullying that would go on if someone wasn't wearing the 'in' thing would be horrendous. Not wearing your tie to the 'cool' length was bad enough (The 'cool' length was very short if you were wondering).

 

[MatskiMonk]

The United Kingdom has had uniforms in high schools (middle school and high school for the North Americans) for hundreds of years. I'm fortunate that we have so; the bullying that would go on if someone wasn't wearing the 'in' thing would be horrendous. Not wearing your tie to the 'cool' length was bad enough (The 'cool' length was very short if you were wondering).

Yeah this is true. IIRC I've had school uniforms in Primary, Middle and High school.. once you get to college one of two things happen, you're so desperate to fit in you buy pretty much the same clothes as everyone else, or you're so desperate to prove your individuality, you wear all kinds of weird crap. I was the latter , but I've also had a job that required a tie and smart shoes since I was 15... so, best of both worlds.

 

[Azuremen]

In school you have no rights, it has been said so in the Supreme Court. You must play by the rules of what someone in a school system says. If a teacher, for any reason, tells you that the shirt you are wearing is inappropriate then you have to obey that teacher. If you ignore those directions then you will get in trouble.

I think you missed the bit where a Supreme Court case (posted earlier in this thread) ruled against censor students that are not causing a problem.

I'd also like to see the Supreme Court case you are referencing that strips students of rights.

 

[Liquid]

Academically, I wore a uniform until I was 16. Then at 16 I got my first job and wore a uniform. Away from that, I wore my own clothes. I'll wear a gown and mortarboard when I graduate.

Think that would be a major scoop for "Big Whoop" magazine. Just as big a scoop as "I wore my own clothes at school and I'm glad because conformity". What do you want, a medal?

 

[Altier146237]

I hate to say it, but prisonermonkeys is right.

In school you have no rights, it has been said so in the Supreme Court. You must play by the rules of what someone in a school system says. If a teacher, for any reason, tells you that the shirt you are wearing is inappropriate then you have to obey that teacher. If you ignore those directions then you will get in trouble.

Does that mean the teacher is right? No, but it still doesn't matter. If the teacher says something and you disobey, don't expect to not get in trouble.

Now I would have to disagree that wearing a shirt advocating the protection of the Right to Bear Arms is instigating something. Guns shouldn't be a scary topic in a school environment. In my school we have had a class where a police officer had brought in around 10 or 11 guns to the classroom for us to examine, including an AR-15, Ruger Mini-14, Colt 1911, .357 Magnum, and a few shotguns. In fact the magazine was sitting right on the counter for the AR-15. In our geography class we often talk about gun control. It doesn't seem like this kid got in trouble advocating for the protection of the 2nd amendment in school, it sounds to me like he got in trouble because a teacher disagreed with is opinion and decided to use his power as a teacher against this kid.

Which cases? Not Tinker V Des Moines. Morse v fredrick is not applicable. BOE V Earls is also not applicable.

 

[Exorcet]

It also teaches kids how to dress appropriately for a learning environment.

Which is what?

Leave all the religious and politics outside the school so these kids can learn math and science and how to read and write.

These all seem like equally valid subjects to me.

As for the guy in the article, I see nothing wrong with his shirt and even less wrong with the place he chose to wear it.

 

[a6m5]

Reminds me of this:

Amen. Letter is too dumb to be real, but that actually illustrates things beautifully.

I hope what I'm reading here isn't true, because this is too pathetic. This should have ended with the teacher apologizing for not knowing the dress code, not the kid getting arrested.

I still don't believe it, it is that dumb.

 

[Nicksfix]

I was wondering how long it would take someone to play this card.

Happy to have obliged you.

Just because you have a right, it's not a licence to exercise it when and wherever you like without consequence. You have the responsibility to exercise your rights in the appropriate manner.

So by your own words, this kid had no right to defend himself when he did nothing wrong ? Lets just sit back and take some verbal abuse from some teacher who has a hard on against guns and the 2nd amendment ? I think not. I think the kid acted appropriately.

You are well within your rights to shout "fire!" in a crowded theatre. However, it is also expected that you don't shout it where there is no fire to speak of.

You honestly think that this case and your "yelling fire" scenario are on the same scale ? Not even remotely close.

I have to question just how much the kid understands the issue he was promoting.

You pointed this out in one of your first posts in this thread. Obviously he knew what he was doing. Remember ...

The kid respects firearms and knows how to use them. That's fine

Did you ever get in trouble at school? A teacher raising their voice is usually a sign that if you continue with a behaviour, you're going to wind up in detention.

I'll openly admit that I was not an angel in school, but I did know my limits. I also say that when a teacher was getting adamant about a subject that I dis-agreed with, I did fire back. I'll not get into details on this part as to not derail the topic at hand. I'll also say that my kid fired back at a teacher, a teacher who was professing things that were against my kids, my wifes, my personal beliefs. Yet, no detentions were served. Why ? because we stood up for our rights with a viable cause, and made them see the other side of the story.

For all you know, the teacher asked the kid to turn his shirt inside out, and the kid said no. The teacher raised his voice slightly, to reinforce the idea that the kid needed to do as he was asked.

Without justifiable cause he attempted to make the kid do this. Again, the kids shirt met the criteria of the school dress code. So who does this teacher in question think he is by attempting to make this kid do something that is against his rights ?

Now you see why schools across America are switching to school uniform policies so they can avoid crap like this.

Maybe in private or Catholic schools, but not public.

The teacher handled this poorly if he felt confronting the student in the cafeteria over a matter that would have been best handled behind closed doors was the adult thing to do.

Nicely said.
The teacher was on a power trip. Obviously wanting to flex his muscle and show his control over the kid.